Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3736067 times)

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43500 on: December 16, 2021, 08:21:32 AM »
Yes, I fully agree that knowledge will lead us to the truth.
It is my knowledge of science and the laws governing particle physics which leads me to the conclusion that my abilities to believe, to contemplate and to reason are entirely incompatible with the fall out from a material entity whose every moment is entirely defined by unavoidable reactions to previous moments.

And yet you have totally failed to provide even the first hint of any evidence or the merest suggestion of rational thought behind that assertion. Just endless fallacies and incoherent gibberish. Thus suggesting that your capacity for rational thought, when it comes to your favourite superstitions, is severely impaired.

And, of course, you are yet again misrepresenting the counterarguments in linking it directly to the physical. You can't even be honest enough to face up to the actual arguments against you.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2021, 08:24:26 AM by Never Talk to Strangers »
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43501 on: December 16, 2021, 09:17:23 AM »
Yes, I fully agree that knowledge will lead us to the truth.
Then why would you find a quote that specifically eliminates 'knowledge' and replaces it with 'faith' to be profound.

Surely if you consider that knowledge will lead us to the truth you'd find that quote to be foolish. Now the problem with 'faith' and in particular religious faith is that it isn't something that we use as a placeholder while we strive for knowledge. Rather it is held to be something somehow more worthy than knowledge, to such an extent that throughout history religious groups have actively closed down attempts to develop knowledge and refuse to accept knowledge that runs counter to their faith.

So the quote you provided isn't profound, in my opinion, it is foolish and also dangerous as it comes from someone with very, very considerable soft power over millions of people.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43502 on: December 16, 2021, 09:23:51 AM »
Explicitly stated?, Wouldn't cleverly implicitly stated be enough?
Lets see what he says then about religious people which presumably includes christians ''There are, in other words, religious moderates and religious extremists,'' That is how he categorises religious people ''The Problem with Religious Moderates'' not only are religious extremists a problem
When in a hole, stop digging Vlad.

Harris never says that all christians are bad people, he never comes close. There is a massive difference between considering certain ideologies to be a problem and that certain groups of people are bad. I can say that parents driving their kids to school on a term time morning is a problem - that doesn't mean those people are inherently bad. I might think they are wrong for choosing to drive their kids to school, I might thing they are misguided in doing so, I might even think that their actions means that others act in a dangerous manner because of the problem of the traffic. But in no way could my considering school drop drivers to be a problem equate to all school drop drivers being bad people.

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” - Edmund Burke clearly saw a problem with good people sitting on their hands, but that didn't means he thought those people were bad, quite the reverse he clearly saw them as good, albeit misguided.

« Last Edit: December 16, 2021, 09:27:45 AM by ProfessorDavey »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43503 on: December 16, 2021, 09:31:14 AM »
When in a hole, stop digging Vlad.

Harris never says that all christians are bad people, he never comes close. There is a massive difference between considering certain ideologies to be a problem and that certain groups of people are bad. I can say that parents driving their kids to school on a term time morning is a problem - that doesn't mean those people are inherently bad. I might think they are wrong for choosing to drive their kids to school, I might thing they are misguided in doing so, I might even think that their actions means that others act in a dangerous manner because of the problem of the traffic. But in no way could my considering school drop drivers to be a problem equate to all school drop drivers being bad people.

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” - Edmund Burke clearly saw a problem with good people sitting on their hands, but that didn't means he thought those people were bad, quite the reverse he clearly saw them as good, albeit misguided.
More from Harris
''However, religious moderates are themselves the bearers of a terrible dogma''
''I hope to show that the very ideal of religious tolerance-born of the notion that every human being should be free to believe whatever he wants about God-is one of the principal forces driving us toward the abyss''
''Religious moderation, insofar as it represents an attempt to hold on to what is still serviceable in orthodox religion, closes the door to more sophisticated approaches to spirituality, ethics, and the building of strong communities.''

source The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason Sam Harris

« Last Edit: December 16, 2021, 09:33:17 AM by Walt Zingmatilder »

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43504 on: December 16, 2021, 09:54:22 AM »
More from Harris
''However, religious moderates are themselves the bearers of a terrible dogma''
''I hope to show that the very ideal of religious tolerance-born of the notion that every human being should be free to believe whatever he wants about God-is one of the principal forces driving us toward the abyss''
''Religious moderation, insofar as it represents an attempt to hold on to what is still serviceable in orthodox religion, closes the door to more sophisticated approaches to spirituality, ethics, and the building of strong communities.''

source The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason Sam Harris
In which Harris attacks the religious dogma of christianity - that doesn't mean he thinks that all christians are bad people, merely wrong or misguided.

Yawn - come back when you can show exactly where in this article Sam Harris explicitly states that all christians are bad people. Here is a clue - he doesn't - indeed the word 'bad' never even appears in the article.

You could show a little humility and accept that you were wrong and that the article doesn't provide any evidence for your assertion that some atheists (in this case Harris) think that all christians are bad people.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43505 on: December 16, 2021, 10:00:41 AM »
In which Harris attacks the religious dogma of christianity - that doesn't mean he thinks that all christians are bad people, merely wrong or misguided.

Yawn - come back when you can show exactly where in this article Sam Harris explicitly states that all christians are bad people. Here is a clue - he doesn't - indeed the word 'bad' never even appears in the article.
But he calls them the bearers of it. Again you don't have to use the word bad to imply it....IMHO you are straw clutching.
Quote
You could show a little humility and accept that you were wrong and that the article doesn't provide any evidence for your assertion that some atheists (in this case Harris) think that all christians are bad people.
I think he implicity suggests not the goodness of religious moderates, nor the moral neutrality of religious moderates but the immorality of religious moderates....and that's BAD.

The title of the reprinted article on beliefnet I believe even is titled the problem with religious moderates.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43506 on: December 16, 2021, 10:07:44 AM »
I think he implicity suggests not the goodness of religious moderates, nor the moral neutrality of religious moderates but the immorality of religious moderates....and that's BAD.
He never says they are bad, which is what you claimed. Nor do I think he implies it, any more than Edmund Burke implies that good people are bad people, or that I might consider that school-run parents are bad people. Thinking someone is wrong or misguided isn't the same as thinking they are bad.

I'm sure you think I am wrong or misguided Vlad - do you think I am a bad person Vlad?

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43507 on: December 16, 2021, 10:11:59 AM »
The title of the reprinted article on beliefnet I believe even is titled the problem with religious moderates.
So what - that doesn't mean they are bad.

Would you conclude that an article entitled:

"The problem with school run parents", implies that all people who drive their children to school are bad people.

or

"The problem with people who buy their coffee at Starbucks rather than independent Cafes", implies that all people who buy coffee at Starbucks are bad people.

Of course not, and nor is there any explicit statement nor implication in either the title nor the content of the article that Harris thinks that all christians are bad people.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43508 on: December 16, 2021, 10:14:29 AM »
Knowledge and reason are the two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of the truth.

There you go AB - fixed it for you. Basing thing on faith is terrifying as faith, by definition, is unevidenced as if you have evidence you don't need faith as you have knowledge.

Just for a moment try to demonstrate some empathic thinking, walk a mile in someone else shoes. Just imagine what nonsense, and indeed dangerous nonsense, this sounds to someone who does not believe that god even exists. If are aren't able to be empathic in that manner, try this - imaging if this statement came from a religious leader whose claimed god you don't believe exists and whose religious practices and moral beliefs who don' agree with.

Would you find that statement profound, or gullible and worrying.
Interesting point you raise PD - I can empathise with someone who is terrified of faith but different people are terrified of lots of different things. We can't really accommodate everyone's terrors. As a woman, the current transgender debate could make me very anxious, but being terrified is not very productive or useful, and it could also lead you to be labelled a bigot or phobic. Similarly, atheists will just have to learn to manage their terror of religious faith or they too run the risk of being seen as bigots.

For example I have been asked to sign an £850 contract (non-refundable except for exceptional circumstance) for my 17 year old daughter to attend a residential academic camp about 200 miles away from home over the summer. The camp policy docs say U18s will be sharing bedrooms - 2 to a room. They also say that for safeguarding reasons kids are not allowed to entertain each other in their bedrooms, only in communal areas. They also say sexual activity is not allowed and kids will be sent home if discovered engaging in explicit sexual activity. And then the policy docs say that in line with government legislation transgender kids will be placed in the boarding house that corresponds with their gender identity, and if the trans kid wants a single room they will attempt to accommodate this but cannot guarantee a single room.

So in theory I could be signing a contract to agree that my daughter will share a room with a trans girl. I therefore raised the issue with the camp director that their policy seems contradictory as there is no data to show a trans girl has less testosterone than any other biological male and that normal male teen behaviour is to become sexually aroused, get an erection and masturbate in their bedrooms and this would probably make my daughter uncomfortable if she became aware of it. I also pointed out the loss of privacy to my daughter and the risk of unwanted sexual advances or sexual harassment if the trans girl was attracted to girls, as many biological males are. I also queried what would happen if the trans girl was sexually attracted to my daughter and what if she welcomed the advances - would that not go against their policy of teens not being allowed to entertain each other in their bedrooms to prevent sexual activity - and would that not run the risk of teen pregnancy and transmission of STDs. The data shows unprotected lesbian sex carries a lower risk of STDs and no risk of pregnancy but in this case the trans girl is actually a boy so there would be the same risk of STDs and pregnancy as there is with unprotected heterosexual sex.

This is just one example, but there seem to be various irrational, self-contradictory unevidenced ideas that have nothing to do with religion that society seems to try to accommodate at various points in time that could be considered terrifying. Somehow we have to rub along and accommodate and come to a compromise.

No doubt a different unevidenced idea will soon come along to be the cause of the day. If we get to choose our own age based on our belief or how we self-identify, I can think of some tax pension loopholes that can be exploited.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43509 on: December 16, 2021, 10:21:26 AM »
When in a hole, stop digging Vlad.
In this instance Vlad is not in a hole. He actually has a good point. Harris seems to be doing a similar job to the people who are racist but present their anti-immigration arguments as concern for limited resources.

Quote
Harris never says that all christians are bad people, he never comes close. There is a massive difference between considering certain ideologies to be a problem and that certain groups of people are bad. I can say that parents driving their kids to school on a term time morning is a problem - that doesn't mean those people are inherently bad. I might think they are wrong for choosing to drive their kids to school, I might thing they are misguided in doing so, I might even think that their actions means that others act in a dangerous manner because of the problem of the traffic. But in no way could my considering school drop drivers to be a problem equate to all school drop drivers being bad people.
Misguided is just a polite euphemism. Without being pedantically literal we are not concerned about whether Sam specifically used the word "bad" and more concerned about whether he is generalising negatively about a group pf people. Which could well make him a bigot. Like some of the religious preachers of bigotry. Not having a religious faith is no protection against holding bigoted ideas.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43510 on: December 16, 2021, 10:21:48 AM »
'Trans girl' means a boy

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43511 on: December 16, 2021, 10:21:51 AM »
Interesting point you raise PD - I can empathise with someone who is terrified of faith but different people are terrified of lots of different things.
I'm not terrified of faith - that wasn't my implication.

My point was that an approach that emphasises faith as an approach to derive the truth and specifically eliminates knowledge (as the quote does) is terrifying. The point being that 'faith' can, and has been used to justify all sorts of things without evidence - and equating faith rather than knowledge to be the 'truth' is the modus operandus of authoritarian and totalitarian regimes throughout history.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43512 on: December 16, 2021, 10:26:26 AM »
He never says they are bad, which is what you claimed. Nor do I think he implies it, any more than Edmund Burke implies that good people are bad people, or that I might consider that school-run parents are bad people. Thinking someone is wrong or misguided isn't the same as thinking they are bad.

I'm sure you think I am wrong or misguided Vlad - do you think I am a bad person Vlad?
I think we are all sinners Professor. I think Harris gives vent to that status. You on the other hand are probably of the Good chap hypothesis where people are basically Good or morally tolerable since they obstensively observe the law. So you are never going to admit to anybody being bad. Harris has no such qualms. The very religious tolerence espoused as he thinks by religious moderates is pushing us to the abyss. The suggestion or problem with religious moderates is that they do bad things including pushing us all to the abyss(...what can be worse than that?) he says. Since there is no reification of evil in atheism Religious moderates must be the bearers of the bad.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43513 on: December 16, 2021, 10:26:36 AM »
In this instance Vlad is not in a hole. He actually has a good point.
No he doesn't - he claimed that some people thought all christians were bad people and used Sam Harris as an example.

I asked him for evidence that Sam Harris had explicitly stated that all christians are bad people.

He provided this article in which there is no claim, explicit or implicit that all christians are bad people.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43514 on: December 16, 2021, 10:27:55 AM »
I think we are all sinners Professor.
Not an answer to the question I asked Vlad.

Do you think I am a bad person Vlad, as opposed to someone else that you might think is a good person.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43515 on: December 16, 2021, 10:30:30 AM »
Not an answer to the question I asked Vlad.

Do you think I am a bad person Vlad, as opposed to someone else that you might think is a good person.
Do you agree with the extreme rantings of Sam Harris? That is what I will base my decision on.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43516 on: December 16, 2021, 10:35:32 AM »
In which Harris attacks the religious dogma of christianity - that doesn't mean he thinks that all christians are bad people, merely wrong or misguided.
When you are in a hole PD stop digging. Being described as the bearer of a terrible dogma is not a compliment. For someone who claims to teach ethics you seem clueless about inflammable discriminatory statements. You don't see a problem if I said people are the bearers of a terrible dogma if they say that Black Lives Matter? Does that sound like I am saying people who say Black Lives Matter are just misguided or does it sound like I am making a negative generalisation about a whole group of people?

Quote
Yawn - come back when you can show exactly where in this article Sam Harris explicitly states that all christians are bad people. Here is a clue - he doesn't - indeed the word 'bad' never even appears in the article.
When you're in a hole PD stop digging. You're trying to argue against Vlad's very valid point with pedantry - it's not working.

Quote
You could show a little humility and accept that you were wrong and that the article doesn't provide any evidence for your assertion that some atheists (in this case Harris) think that all christians are bad people.
You could show a little humility PD and accept you were wrong. Trying to argue against Vlad's point by focusing on the literal words he used rather than the point he was making, just makes you look foolish.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43517 on: December 16, 2021, 10:41:42 AM »
No he doesn't - he claimed that some people thought all christians were bad people and used Sam Harris as an example.

I asked him for evidence that Sam Harris had explicitly stated that all christians are bad people.

He provided this article in which there is no claim, explicit or implicit that all christians are bad people.
That's just pedantry. We don't care if Sam Harris explicitly said all christians are bad people. The point Vlad was making was a negative generalisation about a group of people. The negative generalisation was that moderate Christians are the bearers of a terrible dogma. Being the bearer of a terrible dogma is not a compliment - it might have put the moderate Chrisitians in a bad light except luckily many people are not bigots and would dismiss the SH's sentiment as being simple-minded.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43518 on: December 16, 2021, 10:44:33 AM »
That's just pedantry.
It isn't pedantry - Vlad made a very specific claim and it isn't unreasonable for him to justify that claim with evidence. He has failed to do that.

We don't care if Sam Harris explicitly said all christians are bad people.
You may not, I may not, but Vlad seems to as he made that specific claim. And if you make a specific claim and someone asks for evidence to support that claim there is an onus on you to provide that evidence or withdraw the claim. Vlad has done neither.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43519 on: December 16, 2021, 10:45:28 AM »
Vlad,

Your big mistake here is to conflate the consequences of beliefs and actions with the character of the people who hold those beliefs. It’s like reasoning that the doctors who prescribed Thalidomide to pregnant women in the 1960s were therefore bad people. Have you never heard the expression “the road to hell is paved with good intentions”?

SH argues (correctly in my view) that people who privilege faith claims for benign purposes give cover to those who privilege faith claims for malevolent purposes: their rationale (“faith”) is the same. At no point though does he even vaguely suggest that people who privilege faith collectively are “bad” people as you asserted. 
"Don't make me come down there."

God

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43520 on: December 16, 2021, 10:46:59 AM »
You could show a little humility PD and accept you were wrong. Trying to argue against Vlad's point by focusing on the literal words he used rather than the point he was making, just makes you look foolish.
Oh dear VG - the old 'no, you smell' approach.

Vlad made a very specific claim - when asked to he should either provide evidence to support that claim or withdraw the claim. I focussed on the specific words he used - so if you have a problem with the words used, I suggest you take it up with Vlad, as they are his words.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43521 on: December 16, 2021, 10:47:33 AM »
That's just pedantry. We don't care if Sam Harris explicitly said all christians are bad people. The point Vlad was making was a negative generalisation about a group of people. The negative generalisation was that moderate Christians are the bearers of a terrible dogma. Being the bearer of a terrible dogma is not a compliment - it might have put the moderate Chrisitians in a bad light except luckily many people are not bigots and would dismiss the SH's sentiment as being simple-minded.
And to add to this we have had posters on here refer to bringing up children in a religious faith as child abuse. And sorry but my dear sainted mother did not abuse me by bringing me up as an RC.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43522 on: December 16, 2021, 10:48:40 AM »
'Trans girl' means a boy
I think what's happened is Western-liberal society has adopted the dogma that the terms "boy" and "girl" and "man" and "woman" have no objectively defined meaning and can be defined by anyone as they see fit or are the that the definitions are self-contradictory nonsense and white noise. A bit like the term "God" I suppose....who people are searching for.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43523 on: December 16, 2021, 10:50:17 AM »
VG,

Quote
That's just pedantry. We don't care if Sam Harris explicitly said all christians are bad people.

We do if that's what Vlad wants to rely on to justify his claim that "…Christians are now portrayed by some as bad people".
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43524 on: December 16, 2021, 10:50:22 AM »
Vlad,

Your big mistake here is to conflate the consequences of beliefs and actions with the character of the people who hold those beliefs. It’s like reasoning that the doctors who prescribed Thalidomide to pregnant women in the 1960s were therefore bad people. Have you never heard the expression “the road to hell is paved with good intentions”?

SH argues (correctly in my view) that people who privilege faith claims for benign purposes give cover to those who privilege faith claims for malevolent purposes: their rationale (“faith”) is the same. At no point though does he even vaguely suggest that people who privilege faith collectively are “bad” people as you asserted.
If he suggests that people who do a thing have a bad effect, then he is suggesting that in some way they are bad, even if he is just condemning them as stupid.