Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3739275 times)

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43800 on: January 07, 2022, 01:50:38 PM »
True - but their position on such matters isn't the same as those from a non religious background, which surely it would be if everyone was just reasoning stuff out from scratch.
Why would you think that people reasoning from scratch would all come up with the same moral position on issues? Have you even looked into how people come up with their moral positions? You do know people are all different with different mixes of nature and nurture and innate preferences and sensitivities and that recent studies have illustrated that emotions—particularly disgust—play a prominent role in moral reasoning. 

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It is almost as if these people have an overarching moral framework as the starting point for their moral position - hmmm, I wonder what that might be?
No shit sherlock. It's almost as if all humans are influenced by their cultural experiences and nature. So people who grow up in liberal cultures have a different take on religious moral issues compared to those who grow up in conservative cultures, but they are also influenced by their innate preferences and nature. 
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Which confirms what I said - rather than starting from scratch they have an overarching moral framework. And actually for the catholics I know (and I know a lot, very well) the issue isn't really the absolute moral authority of god (most think that is a given) but that they aren't convinced that the interpretation by the church (that isn't god) is quite right.
It's the complete opposite of what you said. They look at the moral framework of the Catholic church's teachings and then reason for themselves whether they will follow the church's teachings or their own moral reasoning, while still identifying as Catholics.
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Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43801 on: January 07, 2022, 01:52:36 PM »
I've obviously not been clear enough in what I was trying to get across either. The only faith position is a belief in god. That is all moderate theists have in common with extremist theists.

Perhaps, yes. But once that's somehow acceptable, then how do you argue against the other faith positions that the extremists hold on the same basis - I believe in God, I believe in a God that wants me to outlaw homosexuality, I believe in a God that wants women to be subservient to men...?

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The morals of moderate theists are reasoned out positions and are not faith positions.

Some, possibly most. Their morals, however, aren't the problem - it's their validation of the idea that it's acceptable in this day and age to believe in supernatural beings.

O.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43802 on: January 07, 2022, 01:58:39 PM »
Why would you think that people reasoning from scratch would all come up with the same moral position on issues?
I don't, and they don't.

Have you even looked into how people come up with their moral positions?
Yes - and guess what I will be incorporating this into a session in the first week of the ethics module I teach, specifically to get students to reflect a little on where there own moral positions may have come from, and also (very importantly) to allow individual students to recognise that the person sat next to them (let's hope we are back to face to face) may have a very different perpective. I do this in an anonymised manner and one of the key outcomes is to ensure that in group discussions students are respectful of the views of their peers and also do not assume that everyone thinks like them.

You do know people are all different with different mixes of nature and nurture and innate preferences and sensitivities and that recent studies have illustrated that emotions—particularly disgust—play a prominent role in moral reasoning
Thanks for that VG - it is almost as if you teach ethics and moral philosophy to students at Masters level.

jeremyp

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43803 on: January 07, 2022, 02:07:58 PM »
What an intellectual response
Intellectual responses don't work. I've explained multiple times why you are wrong about Sam Harris. You've even been shown a video where he explicitly refutes the things you say about him, but you are still repeating the lies.

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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43804 on: January 07, 2022, 02:10:15 PM »
Nope - if you want to seem credible in being afforted by the comments of Harris (you know the lunatic - not very pc language in our world of increasing concern for mental health) for making what you perceive as simplistic arguments about not just all theists, not just all of one sub-set of theists (muslims) but a small sub-set of one sub-set of theists, namely islamists who believe that suicide and martyrdom is a noble cause, then perhaps you should be a little more careful when coming out with a statement that doesn't make it clear whatsoever that (apparently) you are talking about a sub-set of atheists.
I am credible thanks. That you don't find me credible is no loss given your simplistic statements on this thread and lack of comprehension when it comes to English grammar or moral reasoning. 

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And for the record it isn't just atheists who make sweeping, simplistic, generalisations about theists - some theists are perfectly adept at doing it about other theists.
Agreed
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But perhaps you don't want to hear that VG
I'm fine with hearing it as I just agreed with you
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as it doesn't fit with your rather simplistic view of the work - in which an atheist who actually (I think) has the same conclusion as you on the matter - namely that we must do absolutely everything we can to avoid islamic extremists who believe that suicide and martyrdom is a noble cause from getting WMD - is actually some kind of equivalent to a person whose call to action was for all muslims to murder all americans (and their allies) and deliberately murders thousands of innocent people.
I suggest you go back and re-read my posts - specifically #43708 where I explained to you that:

Not suggesting equivalence in terms of crimes between the 2. I am suggesting equivalence in terms of lunatic ideas about pre-emptive nuclear strikes on civilians. Well, actually I haven't come across evidence of Bin Laden contemplating a pre-emptive nuclear strike (have you got any?) so it might just be Sam who contemplates it.

I pointed out that Bin Laden had said Al Qaeda was able and willing to respond in kind to any attack with unconventional weapons. And asked for a link where Bin Laden stated he was contemplating carrying out a pre-emptive nuclear strike. And then you started quote-mining bits of what Bin Laden wrote while leaving out the bits where Bin Laden said the motivation for his attacks on the US would be in order to get US troops to leave Arab lands. What can I say - some people seem to have a real problem with foreigners with their funny ways (especially foreign armies) encroaching on what they perceive as their traditional lands.

Bin Laden also cited the thousands of Iraqi deaths caused by US led sanctions as one of his reasons to attack the US.

But no point doing another round of quote-mining where we rehash the same arguments.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43805 on: January 07, 2022, 02:11:41 PM »
I don't, and they don't.
Yes - and guess what I will be incorporating this into a session in the first week of the ethics module I teach, specifically to get students to reflect a little on where there own moral positions may have come from, and also (very importantly) to allow individual students to recognise that the person sat next to them (let's hope we are back to face to face) may have a very different perpective. I do this in an anonymised manner and one of the key outcomes is to ensure that in group discussions students are respectful of the views of their peers and also do not assume that everyone thinks like them.
Thanks for that VG - it is almost as if you teach ethics and moral philosophy to students at Masters level.
I hope you are offering them a full refund. I'm not sure you're up to teaching the subject, given your performance on here.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43806 on: January 07, 2022, 02:15:41 PM »
It's the complete opposite of what you said. They look at the moral framework of the Catholic church's teachings and then reason for themselves whether they will follow the church's teachings or their own moral reasoning, while still identifying as Catholics.
Nope - you are missing out the 'god' bit, you know the moral higher authority. I don't believe these people are simply placing god and the church on one side and using their own moral reasoning. No I think they are accepting that there is a higher moral authority (god) and have determined that they don't think that the moral requirements of that higher moral authority (god) and the teachings of the church necessary align all of the time. Do you really think that someone who believe in god, believes that god is the highest moral authority would simply ignore that and go 'sod that - I know better'. You've already argued that for muslims it is common to conclude that allah knows best, why should that not be true for catholics. I think what is going on here is that individual believers accept that god knows best, but think they have a more personal and appropriate way to understand what god wants than necessarily though the hierarchical uber-conservative mechanism of the church.

But the basic point remains - being that there is a belief in an absolute, divine, moral authority. That is where (some) theists and atheists will differ, noting that not all religions teach that their god is a higher moral authority in the manner that is the norm for islam and christianity for example.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2022, 02:30:03 PM by ProfessorDavey »

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43807 on: January 07, 2022, 02:20:22 PM »
I hope you are offering them a full refund. I'm not sure you're up to teaching the subject, given your performance on here.
Pathetic, personal insulting comment.

And wrong too. I've been teaching this module for many years, it is highly regarded. The students really enjoy and value it and have rated both the module and my delivery of it as exemplary over many years. And the study body is exceptionally diverse in terms of backgrounds (nationality religion etc). 

But hey, ho, let's leave it to the armchair warrior.


The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43808 on: January 07, 2022, 02:30:47 PM »
Perhaps, yes. But once that's somehow acceptable, then how do you argue against the other faith positions that the extremists hold on the same basis - I believe in God, I believe in a God that wants me to outlaw homosexuality, I believe in a God that wants women to be subservient to men...?
On the basis that a belief in the existence of something is different from a belief in the morality of an action - the latter requires you to act, which means you have an impact on someone else.

The former impacts no one but me - if I didn't mention my belief no else would even know. There are practising Muslims who do not believe in God but pretend to in order to keep the peace in their family. How could anyone ever know if they are pretending or genuine?

If I believe in the existence of unicorns how does my belief impact on someone else? 

However, if I believe that unicorns are telling me it is my moral duty to rid the world of horses, then my belief is more than in the existence of unicorns. It is now a belief about how I am required to act. That's the difference. There are various studies on how our beliefs are formed - e.g. our brains evolved to perceive patterns and agency based on personal experiences or nature/ nurture. There are also studies to show we then seek to rationalise beliefs once they are formed by looking for evidence to support them. 

What's your view on how people form beliefs?

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Some, possibly most. Their morals, however, aren't the problem - it's their validation of the idea that it's acceptable in this day and age to believe in supernatural beings.

O.
Absolutely it's valid and acceptable to believe in supernatural beings if that works for people. Why not?

Whether certain moral beliefs or actions are valid or acceptable is a different matter and depends on the views of the society in a particular place or time. 
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43809 on: January 07, 2022, 02:38:34 PM »
Intellectual responses don't work. I've explained multiple times why you are wrong about Sam Harris. You've even been shown a video where he explicitly refutes the things you say about him, but you are still repeating the lies.
The reason your arguments don't work is that I've explained to you multiple times where you are wrong about Sam Harris.

Harris wasn't even asked in the video about the actual comment he made in his book and on his own blog. You know the bit where Harris says that mass murder of innocent civilians via a pre-emptive nuclear strike may be an unthinkable crime and despite envisaging the death of "tens of millions of innocent civilians in a single day" says "but it may be the only course of action available to us, given what Islamists believe."

There were so many things wrong with the reasoning that brought Harris to this genocidal contemplation but it has certainly resulted in an interesting discussion.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43810 on: January 07, 2022, 02:44:21 PM »
If I believe in the existence of unicorns how does my belief impact on someone else?
It depends entirely on what you consider the unicorn to be. If you consider it to be a lovely rainbow coloured pointy horned creature whose only purpose is to brig you joy then probably it won't impact on others.

However if you consider that the unicorn is the ultimate moral authority who determines what is considered to be right and wrong then it may well impact on others. How it impact will be dependents on:

1. To what extent the unicorn obliges you to follow his or her moral teaching and
2. What you consider the unicorn's moral teaching to be

If you fervently believe that the unicorn considers all red-headed people to be an abomination and to be killed and that you have an obligation to fulfil that teaching then surely your belief will impact on others.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43811 on: January 07, 2022, 02:53:51 PM »
Harris wasn't even asked in the video about the actual comment he made in his book and on his own blog.
Non-sense - yes he was and yes he directly addressed the comment in the book. There was a part where he and the interviewer talked specifically about that section and how significant or otherwise it is within the overall book. He starts talking about this about 45 seconds into the interview and continues to do so for pretty well all the interview. At about 3mins 30 the interviewer talks about the length of the section in the context of the whole book.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7T7barZEeU

So VG - stop posting things that patently aren't true. And can easily be proved not to be true.

« Last Edit: January 07, 2022, 02:59:33 PM by ProfessorDavey »

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43812 on: January 07, 2022, 03:00:30 PM »
Nope - you are missing out the 'god' bit, you know the moral higher authority. I don't believe these people are simply placing god and the church on one side and using their own moral reasoning. No I think they are accepting that there is a higher moral authority (god) and have determined that they don't think that the moral requirements of that higher moral authority (god) and the teachings of the church necessary align all of the time. Do you really think that someone who believe in god, believes that god is the highest moral authority would simply ignore that and go 'sod that - I know better'.
Someone who concludes that they cannot possible know if they are correct or wrong about what God wants them to do would just take a position based on their judgment and reasoning and if new information came along - whether through empirical data, emotional experiences, empathising through personal conversations, re-reading and re-interpreting religious texts or by encountering alternative philosophical argument, yes my experience and the experience of those theists I routinely encounter is that it may cause them to reassess their position on moral issues. I am at a loss to know why this is so difficult for you to comprehend.

A recent example is that in many current Muslim traditions, many Muslims seem to believe that zakat (2.5% of your wealth) cannot be paid as charity to non-Muslims. They believe they can give charity - any amount of money - to non-Muslims but the 2.5% wealth tax they calculate should be allocated to charity for Muslims. I have successfully argued that there is no evidence to support the tradition that the 2.5% of wealth tax should not be given to non-Muslims. I am currently the trustee and President of a 50 year old Muslim charity and so I had to argue this publicly at the AGM as someone challenged my ability to be President if I held such an unconventional belief. Guess what, I was elected President despite my unconventional belief and I have been nominated to be President again for 2022.

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You've already argued that for muslims it is common to conclude that allah knows best, why should that not be true for catholics. I think what is going on here is that individual believers accept that god knows best, but think they have a more personal and appropriate way to understand what god wants than necessarily though the hierarchical uber-conservative mechanism of the church.
I don't know about Catholics, but the Muslims I encounter who say "Allah knows best" believe their understanding of what Allah expects could be incorrect - that is why they say Allah knows best, meaning they do not know if they are right or wrong in their moral position, especially as in many Islamic traditions plurality of interpretation is acceptable and 2 different interpretations could both be considered to be acceptable or right.

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But the basic point remains - being that there is a belief in an absolute, divine, moral authority. That is where (some) theists and atheists will differ, noting that not all religions teach that their god is a higher moral authority in the manner that is the norm for islam and christianity for example.
Yes I agree that broadly speaking most theists believe in a divine moral authority and atheists don't believe in a divine anything. But atheists can still believe and stridently insist that they are right on a moral issue despite there being no objective morality that they can point to.   

And there are plenty of theists who accept that they cannot know the judgement of any higher moral authority so they are as much in the dark as anyone else and could be wrong in the reasoning and interpretations that led them to their moral opinions.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43813 on: January 07, 2022, 03:12:18 PM »
Yes I agree that broadly speaking most theists believe in a divine moral authority and atheists don't believe in a divine anything.
Which is the critical point - if you believe that there is a divine moral authority, then surely you must believe that morality is objectively defined by that divine moral authority, regardless of whether you believe you know what that is. Therefore someone who not only believes in a divine moral authority but is also absolutely convinced, through their faith, what that divine moral authority wants cannot be argued with in the same manner as a person who does not believe in a divine moral authority. For that person there answer is simply, 'it is god's will' (how often do we hear that) - the discussion is simply closed down, no argument is possible.

But atheists can still believe and stridently insist that they are right on a moral issue despite there being no objective morality that they can point to.
But they have to reason in a manner that the person I described above doesn't - they cannot simply close down the argument by saying  'it is god's will' or (to please Vlad)  'it is Dawkin's will' etc/. They have to argue their position. And that final point is important - ownership of the position. For the believer in a divine moral authority there is a level of 'outsourcing' moral responsibility - they are just doing what god wants, so to speak. No such opt-out is available to the non believer - if I hold a moral position, I own it and therefore I have to justify it as I cannot 'outsource' it to being the will of a divine moral authority.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43814 on: January 07, 2022, 03:13:12 PM »
In which case there is absolutely no need to include the word athiest is there VG - the word you might want to use instead is people. Note that I've already pointed out that some theists are also perfectly adept at making simplest, generalised comments about other theists. So why not just make it clear that you have gripe with in the minds of people, including Harris, who make very simplistic, ignorant , uniformed generalisations about theists. Ah but that would mean you'd have to admit that your simplistic theist=good, athiest=bad mantra begins to fall apart.
Yes there was a need to include the word "atheist" rather than "people" as I was referring to atheists who make prejudiced generalisations about theists.

You do know there are atheists whose lack of belief in gods causes them to think anyone who does not share their view has to be convinced to change their belief for the good of society. Which is fine - but I was referring to the atheists who make simplistic, ignorant generalisations while pursuing their agenda, hence my inclusion of a relative clause.

Word of advice - you're wasting your time telling me how I should write my posts. You can certainly ask me to clarify things as language is imperfect in conveying thoughts, especially when writing on a message board. But you won't get anywhere trying to tell me what I should have written - I will just ignore your suggestions.

If I were you I would concentrate on not quote-mining and brushing up your grammar and comprehension skills.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43815 on: January 07, 2022, 03:18:15 PM »
It depends entirely on what you consider the unicorn to be. If you consider it to be a lovely rainbow coloured pointy horned creature whose only purpose is to brig you joy then probably it won't impact on others.

However if you consider that the unicorn is the ultimate moral authority who determines what is considered to be right and wrong then it may well impact on others. How it impact will be dependents on:

1. To what extent the unicorn obliges you to follow his or her moral teaching and
2. What you consider the unicorn's moral teaching to be

If you fervently believe that the unicorn considers all red-headed people to be an abomination and to be killed and that you have an obligation to fulfil that teaching then surely your belief will impact on others.
And if you believe that you cannot know for sure what the unicorn's moral teachings are given you are an imperfect human and and given multiple different interpretations could be acceptable to the unicorn and given you do not have a hotline to the unicorn to check you reached the right conclusion, what difference does it make whether you believe the unicorn is the ultimate moral authority?

You are still in the dark as to what the unicorn really wants in any day to day decision you make.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43816 on: January 07, 2022, 03:24:17 PM »
And if you believe that you cannot know for sure what the unicorn's moral teachings are given you are an imperfect human and and given multiple different interpretations could be acceptable to the unicorn and given you do not have a hotline to the unicorn to check you reached the right conclusion, what difference does it make whether you believe the unicorn is the ultimate moral authority?

You are still in the dark as to what the unicorn really wants in any day to day decision you make.
As long as you think that the unicorn is the divine moral authority then you will strive to follow the unicorn's moral teachings and if you are a particularly fervent extreme unicornist, then it is very likely that you will have absolute faith not only that the unicorn is the divine moral authority, likely fervently believe you know that the unicorn wants from you but also that you are absolutely obliged to follow his or her teaching.

Fine if the you consider that the unicorn wants you to tell everyone to have a nice day, not so fine if the unicorn wants you to kill all red headed people.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43817 on: January 07, 2022, 03:27:57 PM »
Yes there was a need to include the word "atheist" rather than "people" as I was referring to atheists who make prejudiced generalisations about theists.
Sounds a bit atheist-ist if you get my drift - i.e. prejudiced.

Why it is somehow acceptable to only single out atheists for criticism for making prejudiced generalisations about theists, when there are plenty of non-atheists who do exactly the same. So you criticise people who are prejudiced by being, err ... prejudiced. Doesn't really compute, does it VG.

jeremyp

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43818 on: January 07, 2022, 03:46:46 PM »
The reason your arguments don't work is that I've explained to you multiple times where you are wrong about Sam Harris.
No I'm not.
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Harris wasn't even asked in the video about the actual comment he made in his book and on his own blog.
What video do you think you were watching. He explicitly denied your accusations.

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You know the bit where Harris says that mass murder of innocent civilians via a pre-emptive nuclear strike may be an unthinkable crime and despite envisaging the death of "tens of millions of innocent civilians in a single day" says "but it may be the only course of action available to us, given what Islamists believe."
That's not advocating doing it. That's warning us that we must take steps so that it never happens. It's obvious and I think your religious sensibilities are stopping you from interpreting it truthfully.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43819 on: January 07, 2022, 04:33:32 PM »
Non-sense - yes he was and yes he directly addressed the comment in the book. There was a part where he and the interviewer talked specifically about that section and how significant or otherwise it is within the overall book. He starts talking about this about 45 seconds into the interview and continues to do so for pretty well all the interview. At about 3mins 30 the interviewer talks about the length of the section in the context of the whole book.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7T7barZEeU

So VG - stop posting things that patently aren't true. And can easily be proved not to be true.
You're wrong - I already addressed this in #43675. Rubin asks Harris if he wants to do a nuclear first strike on the Muslim world.

Harris never said in his book that he wanted to do a nuclear first strike on the Muslim world. That is how journalist Chris Hedges paraphrased what Harris wrote in his book, and Hedges used exaggeration to caricature what he perceived was Harris's views when he was criticising Harris. Rubin then questioned Harris about the caricature and asked him if it was true, which obviously it wasn't because it's a caricature.

Hedges had opined that "the danger of Sam's simplistic worldview is that it does what fundamentalists do: It creates the illusion of a binary world of us and them, of reason versus irrationality, of the forces of light battling the forces of darkness.  And once you set up this world you are permitted to view as justified military intervention, brutal occupation and even torture, anything, in short, that will subdue what is defined as irrational and dangerous.  All this is done in the name of reason, in the name of his god, which looks, like all idols, an awful lot like Sam Harris."

I am not interested in Hedges' take on what Harris wrote - I am interested in what Harris actually wrote. If you watch the video Harris says he was writing in his book about how the certainty some people feel of attaining paradise through martyrdom dilutes the theory of MAD and makes it ineffective as a deterrent. He then comes up with the proposition of a "jihadist regime" with the mindset of the 9/11 hijackers. Except the 9/11 hijackers did not believe that flying planes into buildings was the criteria for being a martyr.

The 9/11 hijackers believed that fighting against what they perceived as US aggression against Muslims e.g. US troops in Saudi, support for Israel's illegal occupation of Palestine, US military and political support for sanctions against Iraq that many people including UN officials perceived as causing the deaths of thousands of Iraqi civilians, was their religious duty and if they died while carrying out that religious duty they would be religious martyrs and go to paradise. I have already quoted Bin Laden's stated political goals.

So if Harris was contemplating how to deal with a regime with the mindset of the 9/11 hijackers - he would be referring to one say that believed "Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori" except instead of "fatherland" or "ancestors" they might have substituted "freedom of Muslims in the Middle East from US aggression"   

He then stated that his concern was about Western countries being nuked by long-range missiles. He did not mention any concerns about short-range missiles that might nuke non-Western foreigners. Maybe Harris is not really concerned about human survival, just his own. Harris says in the video that he had not mentioned anywhere in his book that we should be nuking Iran, which is true, he hadn't suggested that and no one has accused him of saying that. He then says he was only referring to truly suicidal religious maniacs who might get their hands on long range nuclear weapons. Except his unevidenced assumption of truly suicidal religious maniacs is just a fantasy based on his dismissal of the stated political goals of Al Qaeda and his interpretations of "jihad" and martyrdom.

He then said that he had not come up with the idea of pre-emptive nuclear first strikes and that this was a policy that the US military and other military leaders had come up with, (endorsed by some US politicians presumably) and as this policy exists, the reality is that the US could launch a pre-emptive nuclear strike to kill millions of innocent civilians. Which is true - the US did it before on a smaller scale in Japan.

He wasn't asked in the video to justify his view written in his book that even though a pre-emptive nuclear strike against a regime (based on potentially erroneous assumptions about what that regime might believe) would result in tens of millions of dead innocent civilians in a single day, "it may be the only course of action available to us, given what Islamists believe."

Yes, perhaps it may be the only course of action available to him -  based on his ignorance and his faulty, trigger-happy lunatic fantasies.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43820 on: January 07, 2022, 04:54:56 PM »
As long as you think that the unicorn is the divine moral authority then you will strive to follow the unicorn's moral teachings
But you won't be absolutist about it because you think your interpretation of the unicorn's moral teachings could be wrong.

And you will be even less absolutist when it comes to actions that impact on others. So for example, if I fast during Ramadan based on a belief that I am required to by my religion, say while I am working from home on my laptop, that decision only impacts me. So even though I might go for a run while fasting or have a migraine from caffeine withdrawal which causes me to puke and feel ill, the only person's comfort that I am affecting is me.   

If I am fasting during Ramadan based on a belief that I am required to by my religion, and I am aware that fasting will likely result in me having interrupted sleep, and I know I have to get into my car and drive somewhere the next day and I will be in no fit state to drive safely then I will either not go on the journey, find an alternative safer way of travelling or not fast. My decision will change depending on who is impacted by my choices and how important the journey is.

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and if you are a particularly fervent extreme unicornist, then it is very likely that you will have absolute faith not only that the unicorn is the divine moral authority, likely fervently believe you know that the unicorn wants from you but also that you are absolutely obliged to follow his or her teaching.

Fine if the you consider that the unicorn wants you to tell everyone to have a nice day, not so fine if the unicorn wants you to kill all red headed people.
Then your problem is with extremist absolutists who think the moral authority wants them to kill people. That's a problem with people with a certain type of thinking, not with religion.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43821 on: January 07, 2022, 04:55:05 PM »
He wasn't asked in the video to justify his view written in his book that even though a pre-emptive nuclear strike against a regime (based on potentially erroneous assumptions about what that regime might believe) would result in tens of millions of dead innocent civilians in a single day, "it may be the only course of action available to us, given what Islamists believe."
OK - I was polite last time, but enough. Stop lying VG.

Pretty well the whole video involves him justifying that particular passage in the book, which he explains, justifies and adds some detail (e.g. on his thoughts on Pakistan and Iran, for example).

Read the passage (in its entirely rather than quote mining to lead to a conclusion which isn't the conclusion of the piece), watch the video. I cannot see how anyone can reasonably claim that the video does not involve him justifying the passage in his book. It does, so stop lying.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43822 on: January 07, 2022, 05:08:09 PM »
But you won't be absolutist about it because you think your interpretation of the unicorn's moral teachings could be wrong.
Doesn't really matter as the fundamental point is that you think there is a divine moral authority who is the arbiter of what is morally right and what is morally wrong. That is the key distinction. If you do not believe in a divine moral authority you won't have that mindset.

And just to set the record straight - while I think this way of thinking is particularly commonly linked to religions that are based on a deity that is ascribed as a divine moral authority, the overall issue isn't one exclusively of religion. So there are plenty of examples of authoritarian regimes that also create the impression that their leader is the ultimate moral authority whose views cannot be challenged - effectively a 'god' on earth. And the adherents of those regimes are just as concerning in my mind if they believe that their leader is the ultimate moral authority and that they are obliged to fulfil that leader's wishes.

So in earlier posts Vlad tried to argue equivalence between Kim Jong Un and someone like myself or Jeremy P who (he can speak for himself) is liberal in outlook, passionately believes in democracy and thinks the North Korean regime is appalling and morally bankrupt in many, many ways. So in reality there is much more in common between NK/Kim Jong Un and an authoritarian religious regime where both thinks there is a ultimate moral authority. An an atheist if makes little difference to me whether this moral authority is considered to be divine or not (although often those human leaders are considered to by quasi-divine at the least by their adherents). Of course Kim Jung Un exists and I do not believe that god exists, but neither in my opinion is an ultimate moral authority.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43823 on: January 07, 2022, 05:18:45 PM »
Which is the critical point - if you believe that there is a divine moral authority, then surely you must believe that morality is objectively defined by that divine moral authority, regardless of whether you believe you know what that is. Therefore someone who not only believes in a divine moral authority but is also absolutely convinced, through their faith, what that divine moral authority wants cannot be argued with in the same manner as a person who does not believe in a divine moral authority. For that person there answer is simply, 'it is god's will' (how often do we hear that) - the discussion is simply closed down, no argument is possible.
No, the critical point is whether someone takes an absolutist position about their beliefs - regardless of whether those beliefs are morals framed in religious, political, cultural, traditional or philosophical language.   
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But they have to reason in a manner that the person I described above doesn't - they cannot simply close down the argument by saying  'it is god's will' or (to please Vlad)  'it is Dawkin's will' etc/. They have to argue their position. And that final point is important - ownership of the position. For the believer in a divine moral authority there is a level of 'outsourcing' moral responsibility - they are just doing what god wants, so to speak. No such opt-out is available to the non believer - if I hold a moral position, I own it and therefore I have to justify it as I cannot 'outsource' it to being the will of a divine moral authority.
What do you mean by outsourcing? It is the theists' brain that is coming up with the decisions. Who have these decisions been outsourced to if the theist knows the responsibility is on him to try to interpret the situation and make a moral decision, which he will be held accountable for.   

And as I keep pointing out the Muslims I encounter do own their moral positions on the basis that they believe in the concept of a Day of Judgement. That is one of the core tenets of the religion - that you will one day be judged after you die on the basis of your actions, moral judgements and decisions and intentions, and you alone are held responsible for these. You can't outsource your responsibility if you believe you alone are going to be held accountable for your intentions and actions. You can say I think this is what God wants me to do but part of the religion is you are held responsible for the conclusions you come to. The traditional view is that you are being tested every time you have to make a decision - and you only get the results of the test on the Day of Judgement. 
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #43824 on: January 07, 2022, 05:29:48 PM »
And as I keep pointing out the Muslims I encounter do own their moral positions on the basis that they believe in the concept of a Day of Judgement. That is one of the core tenets of the religion - that you will one day be judged after you die on the basis of your actions, moral judgements and decisions and intentions, and you alone are held responsible for these. You can't outsource your responsibility if you believe you alone are going to be held accountable for your intentions and actions. You can say I think this is what God wants me to do but part of the religion is you are held responsible for the conclusions you come to. The traditional view is that you are being tested every time you have to make a decision - and you only get the results of the test on the Day of Judgement.
Can you not see just how circular that argument is.

So effectively - you will, on day be judged by the divine moral authority and if you haven't lived up to the expectation of that divine moral authority then you will be punished. But somehow you aren't beholden to that divine moral authority but are responsible for your own decisions.

It is bit like saying that someone with a gun held to their head is able to freely chose what course of action to take, rather than do the bidding of the gun holder.