Searching for GOD...

[Walt Zingmatilder]

So she found a vehicle, or a crutch if you will, that helped her deal with her issues: that is, of course, to her personal benefit but it doesn't imply that the beliefs she acquired were objectively true even if they proved useful to her.

I recall I guy I worked with a few years ago now who had similar problems, and he also had added complications due to his anger management issues when drinking: then one day a colleague persuaded him to try hill-walking just once and it produced the same type of change - he became a sober 'Munro bagger', and last I heard of him he was still roaming the hills and mountains of Scotland.

All very well but no answer of course to the big questions like ''Am I a good person?'' or ''why is there something rather than nothing?'' the avoidance of which demonstrates a lack, a want or a deficit in a person.....in my humble opinion.

[Gordon]

All very well but no answer of course to the big questions like ''Am I a good person?'' or ''why is there something rather than nothing?'' the avoidance of which demonstrates a lack, a want or a deficit in a person.....in my humble opinion.

Super - but neither of these questions were the issue in this recent exchange.

The issue is that some people may find a 'something' that can aid a change in their personal behaviour or lifestyle - be it religion or mountains. Do you have any views on that?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

All very well but no answer of course to the big questions like ''Am I a good person?'' or ''why is there something rather than nothing?'' the avoidance of which demonstrates a lack, a want or a deficit in a person.....in my humble opinion.

I thought AB's point was the method the lady used to free herself from addiction. She used Christianity so she might be a "bad" reformed drug addict who is also a Christian.

I am assuming you did not mean you think a person needs religion in order to ask themselves if they are a good person, given the word "good" is not an exclusively religious term.

Did you mean Gordon's example of hill-walking as an activity does not help address the big questions in life. I don't know - I imagine people who hill-walk spend a lot of time ruminating, which may involve contemplating what is "good" and "bad" in any given situation or more complex aspects of ethics and philosophy. Then again, maybe they are like me - I often listen to music on my headphones when walking.   

I don't know what the Christian response would be, but Islam doesn't provide any definitive answers to "Am I a good person?". How would anyone know what "good" means as it's based on self-evaluation and personal perspectives so I could perceive myself as good while others could see me and think of my many flaws. People are usually only morally "good" (depending on each person's individual opinion on moral values) in certain limited areas of their life while being "bad" in other areas. I know as an atheist I thought about being "good" and "bad" and pondered on the point of it all. It was comforting as an atheist to think there was no point. You just try to do the best you can in the time you have got. Even as a Muslim I take the same approach as I prefer the idea of no after-life, no meeting up with people after you die, no heaven etc. But while alive I find it interesting to consider the concepts raised by religion.

[Alan Burns]

AB - are you really suggesting that if you can have one rather than the other it is preferable to have a christian with a dangerous addiction problem rather than a non-christian who is cured of their dangerous addiction. That seems to be the conclusion of your comment.

Here you demonstrate precisely the point I was making in failing to understand Christianity from outside.
Most Christians I know would far rather be a hopeless drug addict with faith than a healthy person with no faith.

[jeremyp]

the inevitability of it as asserted by a trigger happy lunatic like Sam Harris.

Why are you still lying about Sam Harris?

At this point I think I have come to the conclusion that you are not acting in good faith.

The bit he was criticised for by many who don't share his opinions was the imbecilic, unevidenced and war-mongering passage:

"If history is any guide, we will not be sure about where the offending warheads are or what their state of readiness is, and so we will be unable to rely on targeted, conventional weapons to destroy them. In such a situation, the only thing likely to ensure our survival may be a nuclear first strike of our own. Needless to say, this would be an unthinkable crime—as it would kill tens of millions of innocent civilians in a single day—but it may be the only course of action available to us, given what Islamists believe."

Don't you see that is a plea to do whatever is necessary not to go down the war mongering path?

Please stop lying.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Super - but neither of these questions were the issue in this recent exchange.

The issue is that some people may find a 'something' that can aid a change in their personal behaviour or lifestyle - be it religion or mountains. Do you have any views on that?

Going by the use of the word crutch then a comparison between religion and hillwalking are we to take it that you consider yourself strong minded enough not to need either?

[Sebastian Toe]

All very well but no answer of course to the big questions like ''Am I a good person?'' or ''why is there something rather than nothing?'' the avoidance of which demonstrates a lack, a want or a deficit in a person.....in my humble opinion.

...all very well but I am curious, are you able to join Alan's list of most Christians he knows by stating ....

 ...if you would far rather be a hopeless drug addict with faith than a healthy person with no faith?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I thought AB's point was the method the lady used to free herself from addiction. She used Christianity so she might be a "bad" reformed drug addict who is also a Christian.

A well known Christian commented that you can't just come to Christianity to have one thing sorted, Christ is neither a specific treatment or a method.

I am assuming you did not mean you think a person needs religion in order to ask themselves if they are a good person, given the word "good" is not an exclusively religious term.

Good may not be an exclusively religious term but little fiddly diddly bits of how it is interpreted, or what it means now is different to what it meant then are probably superflous at the existential level.

Did you mean Gordon's example of hill-walking as an activity does not help address the big questions in life. I don't know - I imagine people who hill-walk spend a lot of time ruminating, which may involve contemplating what is "good" and "bad" in any given situation or more complex aspects of ethics and philosophy. Then again, maybe they are like me - I often listen to music on my headphones when walking.

Hillwalking certainly sounds like a risk to the non existential way.   

I don't know what the Christian response would be

Repentant. probably.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

...all very well but I am curious, are you able to join Alan's list of most Christians he knows by stating ....

 ...if you would far rather be a hopeless drug addict with faith than a healthy person with no faith?

If it meant that I retained more real love for my fellow human beings than a healthy person with no faith then of course.

[Outrider]

Here you demonstrate precisely the point I was making in failing to understand Christianity from outside.

You do realise this is just an admission that Christianity makes no sense, right? You can't understand it, you just have to accept the claims and hope you feel good about it once you have...

Most Christians I know would far rather be a hopeless drug addict with faith than a healthy person with no faith.

Is that, perhaps, indicative of the sort of personality that would accept a notion that makes no sense?

If it meant that I retained more real love for my fellow human beings than a healthy person with no faith then of course.

Why on Earth would anyone think that it meant that?

O.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Why are you still lying about Sam Harris?

At this point I think I have come to the conclusion that you are not acting in good faith.

Thanks for your opinion - other opinions are available. I have come to the conclusion that I'm not lying, I am quoting Harris.

Don't you see that is a plea to do whatever is necessary not to go down the war mongering path?

No, what I see is that suggesting a nuclear first-strike "may be the only course of action available to us" is a dangerous, war-mongering idea. Especially given the ignorant thought process that led Harris to that idea.

Please stop lying.

See above. I'm not lying, I'm quoting Harris. Of course you're free to interpret Harris' words according to your preferences - freedom of belief and all that.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

A well known Christian commented that you can't just come to Christianity to have one thing sorted, Christ is neither a specific treatment or a method. Good may not be an exclusively religious term but little fiddly diddly bits of how it is interpreted, or what it means now is different to what it meant then are probably superflous at the existential level. Hillwalking certainly sounds like a risk to the non existential way.   

I'm not sure I understood the 2nd sentence. Just to clarify: What are the "fiddly diddly bits"? 

What do you mean by "are probably superflous at the existential level".

What do you think is the existential level?

How is this level different for theists vs atheists in terms of the word "good"?

Repentant. probably.

Repentant because they don't think they are a good person? Wouldn't an atheist feel regret and remorse because they would also seem many flaws in themselves?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

If it meant that I retained more real love for my fellow human beings than a healthy person with no faith then of course.

We see people with faith who seem to have no real love for their fellow human, based on their actions. So wouldn't the important criteria be something other than professing a faith?

Any of the theists posting on here could in real life be demonstrating by their actions that they have no real love for their fellow human beings. We only know what they post on here i.e. their words, not what they are really like IRL in terms of love for their fellow human beings. Talk is cheap.

[Gordon]

Going by the use of the word crutch then a comparison between religion and hillwalking are we to take it that you consider yourself strong minded enough not to need either?

I was pointing out that where people need a crutch, and there is nothing wrong with that, then there are 'different strokes for different folks' that can have similar levels of utility: for me, my crutch is that being still able to ride a motorcycle in spite of living with cancer does help me cope with all that cancer (and treatment) brings with it, as does being with family and friends.

If the lady that Alan mentions has found that a religious belief helped her that is fine by me.

[Sebastian Toe]

If it meant that I retained more real love for my fellow human beings than a healthy person with no faith then of course.

...if your real love for you fellow human beings was identical in either scenario, then would your answer still  be the same?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

...if your real love for you fellow human beings was identical in either scenario, then would your answer still  be the same?

I don't believe it would be. I think my love for humanity would be and was less as a person of no faith.......speaking personally.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I was pointing out that where people need a crutch, and there is nothing wrong with that, then there are 'different strokes for different folks' that can have similar levels of utility: for me, my crutch is that being still able to ride a motorcycle in spite of living with cancer does help me cope with all that cancer (and treatment) brings with it, as does being with family and friends.

If the lady that Alan mentions has found that a religious belief helped her that is fine by me.

Crutch?
Motorcycle?..................................Ooh you are awful, but I like you.

[Sebastian Toe]

Crutch?
Motorcycle?..................................Ooh you are awful, but I like you.

A Triumph of a response!

[Walt Zingmatilder]

A Triumph of a response!

Ha Ha.

[Alan Burns]

If there is a god which is benign and omnipotent, then it would not tolerate these 'forces of evil' in the first place.  This is another classic example of poor, self-contradictory reasoning being used to justify belief.

Many people seem to analyse God as though He was a human being, and try to predict how He should react.
It is often quoted that a loving God would not allow the forces of evil.
Or that a loving God would not deny anyone their eternal salvation in Heaven.

But the Bible reveals to us that God's love is unconditional.
We cannot earn God's love - it is there for everyone.
As aptly illustrated in the parable of the Prodigal son:
The father's love for his wayward son never ceases, but the father does not impose his love.  He waits patiently for his son to turn back to him of his own free will.  His son's misadventures were a consequence of turning his back on his Father's love - it was not a punishment.

We cannot receive God's love if we turn our backs to Him.
In these increasingly worrying times, we all need to turn back to our loving Father in heaven and allow the power of His grace to work though us.

[Aruntraveller]

We cannot earn God's love - it is there for everyone.

What - Putin?

He can carry on his merry way and God's love will be there for him.

This doesn't chime well with your other claim that repentance is the way to go.

He waits patiently for his son to turn back to him of his own free will.

You've not worked it out yet Alan. It isn't going to happen. God's little plan re free will has failed. If God hasn't realised that fact over the last 2,000 years of bloodshed then he's got a piss poor intellectual grasp on the matter.

This is not unlike a pacifist approach to matters, if we were all kind and nice and fluffy then things would be alright.

We aren't all kind and nice and fluffy Alan, we never were, we never will be. Sometimes the pen is mightier than the sword, but not always.

Who trusted God was love indeed
And love Creation's final law
Tho' Nature, red in tooth and claw
With ravine, shriek'd against his creed


As ever the conflict/contradiction highlighted remains firmly in place despite (or perhaps because of) your useless God.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

What - Putin?

He can carry on his merry way and God's love will be there for him.

This doesn't chime well with your other claim that repentance is the way to go.

You've not worked it out yet Alan. It isn't going to happen. God's little plan re free will has failed. If God hasn't realised that fact over the last 2,000 years of bloodshed then he's got a piss poor intellectual grasp on the matter.

This is not unlike a pacifist approach to matters, if we were all kind and nice and fluffy then things would be alright.

We aren't all kind and nice and fluffy Alan, we never were, we never will be. Sometimes the pen is mightier than the sword, but not always.

Who trusted God was love indeed
And love Creation's final law
Tho' Nature, red in tooth and claw
With ravine, shriek'd against his creed


As ever the conflict/contradiction highlighted remains firmly in place despite (or perhaps because of) your useless God.

For me this just underlines the presence of sin and evil rather than the non existence of God. Presumably granting free will is greater love than not granting it.

[Aruntraveller]

For me this just underlines the presence of sin and evil rather than the non existence of God. Presumably granting free will is greater love than not granting it.

Well I wasn't arguing for the presence or not of God.

Just pissed off with naive people who seem to think it's ok to blabber on about turning to "God's unconditional love", (do they know what the word unconditional means and can then apply that in the current context of Vladdy - not you the other one) and then write bollocks like:

But the Bible reveals to us that God's love is unconditional.
We cannot earn God's love - it is there for everyone.

and then indulge in a spot of cognitive dissonance by announcing:

We cannot receive God's love if we turn our backs to Him.

If it's there for everyone unconditionally, surely it's still there if we turn our backs. Please tell me you don't go along with such ill-thought out hogwash.

[Udayana]

What - Putin?

He can carry on his merry way and God's love will be there for him.

Putin is a (Russian Orthodox) Christian and has given a religious context for his actions in Ukraine as the "spiritual destiny" of the nation.

So, for all we know, he may feel he has God's love and is doing his work. He must think he is doing the "right" thing or justify it somehow - just as everyone does.   

https://unherd.com/2022/02/putins-spiritual-destiny/
 

This doesn't chime well with your other claim that repentance is the way to go.

You've not worked it out yet Alan. It isn't going to happen. God's little plan re free will has failed. If God hasn't realised that fact over the last 2,000 years of bloodshed then he's got a piss poor intellectual grasp on the matter.

This is not unlike a pacifist approach to matters, if we were all kind and nice and fluffy then things would be alright.

We aren't all kind and nice and fluffy Alan, we never were, we never will be. Sometimes the pen is mightier than the sword, but not always.

Who trusted God was love indeed
And love Creation's final law
Tho' Nature, red in tooth and claw
With ravine, shriek'd against his creed


As ever the conflict/contradiction highlighted remains firmly in place despite (or perhaps because of) your useless God.

True.

ETA: Added link.

[torridon]

Many people seem to analyse God as though He was a human being, and try to predict how He should react.
It is often quoted that a loving God would not allow the forces of evil.
Or that a loving God would not deny anyone their eternal salvation in Heaven.
..

Yes a loving God would not unleash the forces of evil on us.  How hard can it be to understand this; its an oxymoron.