Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3894498 times)

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44025 on: April 06, 2022, 11:47:02 AM »
What I have to offer

Could you offer a description of what your soul does when it is not "linking" to your physical body in this physical universe?
From your own personal experience of course.
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Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44026 on: April 06, 2022, 01:52:51 PM »
The arguments which you claim to "continually undo me" all deny the reality of humans being able to choose their own destiny.  If at every moment in our lives we could not have chosen a different word, thought or action there can be no concept of freedom.  Being entirely shackled to the unavoidable consequences of past events is not the reality which is at the heart of my existence.  Nor is it the reality which would enable our human minds to ponder such questions.

No they don't deny 'the reality of humans being able to choose their own destiny' at all. Given that there are no exterior limitations, I am completely free to choose what I want at any given moment. However, as Schopenhauer suggests, I am not free to want what I want. The rest of your above statement simply contains assertions which are not backed up by any evidence whatever.

Quote
What I have to offer is what makes us human - our consciously driven freedom to choose rather than react.

No, all you offer is a supernatural power which is beyond human understanding.  Unlike you, I have no reason to think that such vague assertions have any veracity and therefore have no effect whatever on making me human.
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44027 on: April 06, 2022, 02:28:59 PM »
Could you offer a description of what your soul does when it is not "linking" to your physical body in this physical universe?
From your own personal experience of course.
I can only speculate on this:
Time is a dimension of this material universe which is perceived though the physical senses in our human bodies.  If the window into this material universe shuts down during sleep, the soul's perception of time will cease until the material brain re awakes.  The soul still exists in its ever present state, but without perceiving the time dimension of our universe.  When the link to our physical body is completely severed I imagine that the soul will be aware of a state closer to God - the source of all existence.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44028 on: April 06, 2022, 02:39:29 PM »
No they don't deny 'the reality of humans being able to choose their own destiny' at all. Given that there are no exterior limitations, I am completely free to choose what I want at any given moment. However, as Schopenhauer suggests, I am not free to want what I want.
If every event occurring in our brain is defined entirely from past events, there can be no freedom to choose - since we have no conscious control over the past.  In the time dependent "cause and effect" scenario, I see our freedom in the same light as a boulder is free to roll down a hill.  It is free to roll, but it can't choose its course.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44029 on: April 06, 2022, 02:59:46 PM »
If every event occurring in our brain is defined entirely from past events, there can be no freedom to choose - since we have no conscious control over the past.  In the time dependent "cause and effect" scenario, I see our freedom in the same light as a boulder is free to roll down a hill.  It is free to roll, but it can't choose its course.

As I said, I am able to choose according to my desires at any particular moment. Obviously, given circumstances being exactly the same, I would make exactly the same choices as my desires would remain the same. This doesn't negate the idea of choice at all, which is simply the act of choosing between two or more possibilities.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44030 on: April 06, 2022, 03:14:41 PM »
I can only speculate on this:
Time is a dimension of this material universe which is perceived though the physical senses in our human bodies.  If the window into this material universe shuts down during sleep, the soul's perception of time will cease until the material brain re awakes.  The soul still exists in its ever present state, but without perceiving the time dimension of our universe.  When the link to our physical body is completely severed I imagine that the soul will be aware of a state closer to God - the source of all existence.
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jeremyp

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44031 on: April 06, 2022, 05:23:23 PM »
If every event occurring in our brain is defined entirely from past events, there can be no freedom to choose - since we have no conscious control over the past.  In the time dependent "cause and effect" scenario, I see our freedom in the same light as a boulder is free to roll down a hill.  It is free to roll, but it can't choose its course.

When you make a choice, on what do you base it, if not past events?
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44032 on: April 06, 2022, 07:17:06 PM »
As I said, I am able to choose according to my desires at any particular moment. Obviously, given circumstances being exactly the same, I would make exactly the same choices as my desires would remain the same. This doesn't negate the idea of choice at all, which is simply the act of choosing between two or more possibilities.
In a purely material brain, the desires themselves will comprise material reactions generated by past events, and if these desires are what control your choices, then the "choice" is simply an inevitable reaction to events.  But is a conscious desire or a want entirely definable in material terms?  In our conscious awareness, we are aware of desires and reasons and possible consequences before we consciously invoke a choice.  I am quite certain that in these circumstances it is not the desires themselves which invoke a choice - it is invoked by whatever comprises my conscious awareness, and given the identical circumstances I am free to invoke whatever I consciously choose.  I make the choice - it is not made for me by past events.  This is the reality perceived by every conscious human being.  You can try to explain away this reality using our limited knowledge, but you can't remove it.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44033 on: April 06, 2022, 07:43:27 PM »
In a purely material brain, the desires themselves will comprise material reactions generated by past events, and if these desires are what control your choices, then the "choice" is simply an inevitable reaction to events.  But is a conscious desire or a want entirely definable in material terms?  In our conscious awareness, we are aware of desires and reasons and possible consequences before we consciously invoke a choice.  I am quite certain that in these circumstances it is not the desires themselves which invoke a choice - it is invoked by whatever comprises my conscious awareness, and given the identical circumstances I am free to invoke whatever I consciously choose.  I make the choice - it is not made for me by past events.  This is the reality perceived by every conscious human being.  You can try to explain away this reality using our limited knowledge, but you can't remove it.

So far as I can see:

1. All of this is 'definable' as biology doing what it does in humans.

2. It may feel that you have 'free will' - but that is just another feeling that is rooted in biology doing what it does, some of which we aren't consciously aware of.

3. If your apparent choices were not dependent on previous events and the prevailing circumstances then your choices would, presumably involve some randomness - and that would result in chaos.






Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44034 on: April 06, 2022, 08:54:28 PM »
I can only speculate on this:
Time is a dimension of this material universe which is perceived though the physical senses in our human bodies.  If the window into this material universe shuts down during sleep, the soul's perception of time will cease until the material brain re awakes.  The soul still exists in its ever present state, but without perceiving the time dimension of our universe.  When the link to our physical body is completely severed I imagine that the soul will be aware of a state closer to God - the source of all existence.
Speculate? Imagine?
You are the one telling us that you have a soul., that you are your soul and your soul is you.
Therefore you surely must be able to describe what your soul does when not linked to your body?
What is it like to exist in a timeless dimension? I'm genuinely curious.

On the other hand,  I don't think that I have a soul and my experience (or in reality, non-experience) of another dimension leads me to conclude that I am correct.
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
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Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44035 on: April 07, 2022, 09:27:02 AM »
In a purely material brain, the desires themselves will comprise material reactions generated by past events, and if these desires are what control your choices, then the "choice" is simply an inevitable reaction to events.  But is a conscious desire or a want entirely definable in material terms?  In our conscious awareness, we are aware of desires and reasons and possible consequences before we consciously invoke a choice.  I am quite certain that in these circumstances it is not the desires themselves which invoke a choice - it is invoked by whatever comprises my conscious awareness, and given the identical circumstances I am free to invoke whatever I consciously choose.  I make the choice - it is not made for me by past events.  This is the reality perceived by every conscious human being.  You can try to explain away this reality using our limited knowledge, but you can't remove it.

There have to be reasons why we make our decisions and these are the antecedents of our choices. If there are no reasons, the result has to be random. That is the only alternative. Whether decisions are arrived at consciously or unconsciously has no bearing on this logic. Even your soul idea cannot escape this logic,(unless you make it supernatural and beyond understanding, which is to say, you can say nothing about it at all, and your whole idea becomes simply a matter of your faith.) Your idea of freedom seems to fly in the face of this whereas my idea of freedom lies within this logic.

Julian Baggini put it, I think, rather well, in his book ''Freedom Regained, The Possibility of Free Will', when he said:

Quote
Thinking about the freedom of the artist should change how we see free will for everyone. First of all, artists help us to understand that to be free is for your choices to flow from you, whether they are entirely conscious or not. Second, to be free is to be able to generate highly personal outputs from the inputs of nature, nurture and society, not to be free from their influences, able to create from nothing. Free choices are ones where the individual contributes something indispensible to the choice, even if the ability to make that contribution is something that is in one sense simply the result of nature and all past experience - for what else could it be the result of? Third, to be free is to make choices in the knowledge that there are other options and without being forced or coerced one way or another. This can be the case even if, from a certain point of view, the choice you actually make is the only one you would ever have made in that situation.

Keep making the same assertions if you like, but personally I find them rather tedious because they don't enlighten, they simply repeat what has been a long running saga, where you signally failed to deal with the arguments and explanations that were produced.(If you want examples, I can easily provide some)

I was much more interested in trying to glean your evidence for the human soul idea at the beginning of this conversation until I sadly discovered that you really had nothing to offer, so, unless you come up with something fresh and interesting, I see no point in continuing this particular conversation.
Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44036 on: April 07, 2022, 03:58:52 PM »
I was much more interested in trying to glean your evidence for the human soul idea at the beginning of this conversation until I sadly discovered that you really had nothing to offer, so, unless you come up with something fresh and interesting, I see no point in continuing this particular conversation.
I noticed in one of your earlier posts that you mentioned the term "blindsight" in relation to human conscious awareness.
I understand that this refers to the ability of the conscious mind to perceive beyond what is possible from impaired functionality of our physical senses.  One example I recall was a person's ability to accurately point to the position of an object behind a screen, and to differentiate between horizontal and vertical lines put behind the screen.

To me this is a further example of the conscious human mind being able to go beyond what can result from physical reactions alone.  It would indicate that human conscious awareness can "see" beyond the limitations of the data produced from our physical senses and offers further evidence for the supernatural nature of the human soul.  I believe the soul is what perceives and interprets the physical content of our human brain to produce our conscious awareness, and "blindsight" is evidence that such perception may extend beyond the brain itself.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44037 on: April 07, 2022, 06:50:21 PM »
I noticed in one of your earlier posts that you mentioned the term "blindsight" in relation to human conscious awareness.
I understand that this refers to the ability of the conscious mind to perceive beyond what is possible from impaired functionality of our physical senses.  One example I recall was a person's ability to accurately point to the position of an object behind a screen, and to differentiate between horizontal and vertical lines put behind the screen.

To me this is a further example of the conscious human mind being able to go beyond what can result from physical reactions alone.  It would indicate that human conscious awareness can "see" beyond the limitations of the data produced from our physical senses and offers further evidence for the supernatural nature of the human soul.  I believe the soul is what perceives and interprets the physical content of our human brain to produce our conscious awareness, and "blindsight" is evidence that such perception may extend beyond the brain itself.

Monkeys show blindsight.

https://www.nature.com/articles/srep10755

Nearly Sane

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Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44039 on: April 07, 2022, 08:54:25 PM »
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

ekim

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44040 on: April 08, 2022, 10:16:15 AM »

(1) Therefore you surely must be able to describe what your soul does when not linked to your body?

(2) What is it like to exist in a timeless dimension? I'm genuinely curious.



From a Biblical standpoint .....
(1)  It does Nothing.   'Be still and Know .....'

(2)  Heaven, which I would say is a word used to represent a 'state' of being which is always present within an individual and which thought cannot access.  JC is alleged to have said that it 'cannot be seen with scrutiny neither can it be pointed to, because, it is within you', and likened it to 'a raising agent (symbol of life) which although is hidden in flour causes the whole to rise'.

Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44041 on: April 08, 2022, 10:32:15 AM »
I noticed in one of your earlier posts that you mentioned the term "blindsight" in relation to human conscious awareness.
I understand that this refers to the ability of the conscious mind to perceive beyond what is possible from impaired functionality of our physical senses.  One example I recall was a person's ability to accurately point to the position of an object behind a screen, and to differentiate between horizontal and vertical lines put behind the screen.

To me this is a further example of the conscious human mind being able to go beyond what can result from physical reactions alone.  It would indicate that human conscious awareness can "see" beyond the limitations of the data produced from our physical senses and offers further evidence for the supernatural nature of the human soul.  I believe the soul is what perceives and interprets the physical content of our human brain to produce our conscious awareness, and "blindsight" is evidence that such perception may extend beyond the brain itself.

No, I think you have it the wrong way round. Blindsight refers to the unconscious ability to perceive things when the normal visual cortex is impaired. The original research was done on animals(see Maeght's comment about monkeys) and extended to human beings later. A classic example is that which was done in 2008(by Tamietto and Weiskrantz) where a a man who was blind across the whole of his visual field, and normally walked with a white cane, was asked to walk along a corridor loaded with furniture (minus his white cane). He did it successfully on his very first attempt and, crucially he claimed that not only was he aware of not seeing anything, but he was not aware of moving out of the way of the obstacles. He insisted that he had just walked straight down the corridor.
The point about blindsight is that it allows neuroscientists to examine just what potential the unconscious mind has when compared with our conscious awareness.  If you wish to explore this further, I suggest that this is a very good article to start with:
http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Blindsight
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44042 on: April 08, 2022, 12:18:08 PM »
No, I think you have it the wrong way round. Blindsight refers to the unconscious ability to perceive things when the normal visual cortex is impaired. The original research was done on animals(see Maeght's comment about monkeys) and extended to human beings later. A classic example is that which was done in 2008(by Tamietto and Weiskrantz) where a a man who was blind across the whole of his visual field, and normally walked with a white cane, was asked to walk along a corridor loaded with furniture (minus his white cane). He did it successfully on his very first attempt and, crucially he claimed that not only was he aware of not seeing anything, but he was not aware of moving out of the way of the obstacles. He insisted that he had just walked straight down the corridor.
The point about blindsight is that it allows neuroscientists to examine just what potential the unconscious mind has when compared with our conscious awareness.  If you wish to explore this further, I suggest that this is a very good article to start with:
http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Blindsight

This extract from Maeght's link clearly refers to blindsight coming from conscious awareness, as did the example I quoted from earlier, though I no longer have access to that link.

Some blindsight patients report a specific kind of awareness (“a feeling-of-something-is-happening”), an experience of the presence of the visual stimuli despite no phenomenal vision such as a shape or colour of the stimuli25,26. This experience generally occurs only when the visual stimuli is salient and hence, has been called “type II” blindsight1.

The unconscious awareness may well occur as a different category of blindsight, but I maintain that conscious awareness of states beyond the scope of data obtained from our physical senses offers evidence of a supernatural aspect of the human mind beyond human understanding.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44043 on: April 08, 2022, 02:02:20 PM »
This extract from Maeght's link clearly refers to blindsight coming from conscious awareness, as did the example I quoted from earlier, though I no longer have access to that link.

Some blindsight patients report a specific kind of awareness (“a feeling-of-something-is-happening”), an experience of the presence of the visual stimuli despite no phenomenal vision such as a shape or colour of the stimuli25,26. This experience generally occurs only when the visual stimuli is salient and hence, has been called “type II” blindsight1.

The unconscious awareness may well occur as a different category of blindsight, but I maintain that conscious awareness of states beyond the scope of data obtained from our physical senses offers evidence of a supernatural aspect of the human mind beyond human understanding.

Type 2 blindsight only refers to the most vague feelings that something is happening. It isn't specific or focussed in any way. Hence, overall, blindsight seems to affect unconscious pathways in the brain.  I refer you to the beginning of the article that I suggested you read, where it says:

'Blindsight is defined by the Oxford Concise Dictionary as "Medicine: a condition in which the sufferer responds to visual stimuli without consciously perceiving them," implicitly referring, of course, to human patients.'

I think you're simply clutching at straws, because the evidence suggests that the unconscious is able to make decisions which the participant is either completely unaware of or only partially/vaguely aware of. Furthermore it seems that there is now evidence that blindsight is not just an isolated neurological condition but extends to other areas.
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44044 on: April 08, 2022, 10:58:14 PM »
Perhaps it is Blindsight which gives me the awareness of God.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Sriram

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44045 on: April 09, 2022, 07:24:32 AM »


We have a soul (self) that is conscious. There are different levels of consciousness (and probably different levels of self).

The soul projects itself into the body to form the Personality that we are. Similar to a person sitting inside a robot, for example. The projected self needs sensory inputs through the body, just like a person sitting inside a robot will require inputs through the robotic cameras and microphones. 

But every now and then we could receive communication directly from the outside without being routed through the input devices of the robot. This is probably what we perceive as ESP. Blindsight is another form of ESP.

What we call as the Unconscious mind is probably the consciousness of the Self that functions over and above the consciousness of the robotic 'consciousness'.

Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44046 on: April 09, 2022, 11:18:51 AM »
Perhaps it is Blindsight which gives me the awareness of God.

Could be, or perhaps you're mixing it up with the square root of minus one ;)
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Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44047 on: April 09, 2022, 03:09:20 PM »
. Blindsight is another form of ESP.

Really?
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jeremyp

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44048 on: April 09, 2022, 03:54:53 PM »

We have a soul (self) that is conscious. There are different levels of consciousness (and probably different levels of self).

The soul projects itself into the body to form the Personality that we are. Similar to a person sitting inside a robot, for example. The projected self needs sensory inputs through the body, just like a person sitting inside a robot will require inputs through the robotic cameras and microphones. 

But every now and then we could receive communication directly from the outside without being routed through the input devices of the robot. This is probably what we perceive as ESP. Blindsight is another form of ESP.

What we call as the Unconscious mind is probably the consciousness of the Self that functions over and above the consciousness of the robotic 'consciousness'.

Have you got any evidence for any of that?
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Sriram

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44049 on: April 11, 2022, 05:54:37 AM »



These are philosophical explanations for which there is plenty of evidence, for those who can see.