Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3889418 times)

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44825 on: January 23, 2023, 07:57:19 AM »
You said that

I am wondering what that statement means when you also claim that God interferes with nature and alters it's course and presumably can do that at any time?

It might have been more accurate to say that God mostly allows nature to take it's course ..but not always.

Do you agree?
I believe that God has the power to manipulate the forces of nature in the same way that humans can use their free will to bring about man made creations.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44826 on: January 23, 2023, 08:03:38 AM »
I believe that God has the power to manipulate the forces of nature in the same way that humans can use their free will to bring about man made creations.

Then it is a psychopathic monster or is an incompetent, or both.

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44827 on: January 23, 2023, 08:34:25 AM »
I believe that God has the power to manipulate the forces of nature in the same way that humans can use their free will to bring about man made creations.
"Has the power"

Has he used that power?
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44828 on: January 23, 2023, 09:23:43 AM »
I believe that God has the power to manipulate the forces of nature in the same way that humans can use their free will to bring about man made creations.

Ironically I find I can actually agree exactly with that idea...

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44829 on: January 23, 2023, 09:28:58 AM »
Have you not read and understood the profound message illustrated in the Garden of Eden?
You mean the myth that has been used to justify the notion of collected, inherited guilt, arguable to most toxic, corrosive and murderous concept ever developed by humans.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44830 on: January 23, 2023, 09:34:42 AM »
In addition to human free will, God allows nature to take its course.  It all leads to an imperfect world, but a world in which we can get glimpses of the perfection which we should all aspire to.
But all this does is raise more questions.

So there seems to be two ways to think about this:

1. When god allows free will and for nature to take its course god no longer retains the ability to act and intervene or

2. When god allows free will and for nature to take its course god still have the ability to take back control but chooses not to

If 1, then god is no longer omnipotent and therefore praying seems pointless as god no longer has the ability to intervene. If 2 then god could prevent genocide, or child cancer, or climate change but chooses to sit on his/her/its hands, in which case god cannot be considered all loving or all good.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44831 on: January 23, 2023, 10:03:11 AM »
But all this does is raise more questions.

So there seems to be two ways to think about this:

1. When god allows free will and for nature to take its course god no longer retains the ability to act and intervene or

2. When god allows free will and for nature to take its course god still have the ability to take back control but chooses not to

If 1, then god is no longer omnipotent and therefore praying seems pointless as god no longer has the ability to intervene. If 2 then god could prevent genocide, or child cancer, or climate change but chooses to sit on his/her/its hands, in which case god cannot be considered all loving or all good.
Yes there are many things for which we would all like God to intervene and make good.
But if God were to intervene and take away all the bad things we perceive - what would happen to the people?  Would we all take this good living for granted and over indulge in self centred pleasure - because there would be no need for us to help others?  Would there be less opportunity to exercise our great gift of love?  Would we no longer need to accept Jesus as our Lord and Saviour?  Would there be any real purpose left in our earthly lives?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44832 on: January 23, 2023, 10:30:02 AM »
  Would we all take this good living for granted and over indulge in self centred pleasure - because there would be no need for us to help others?
Well no that would be bad and remember all the bad has been removed and only good can occur, so that wouldn't happen, would it?
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44833 on: January 23, 2023, 03:03:48 PM »
But if God were to intervene and take away all the bad things we perceive - what would happen to the people?
They wouldn't have to deal with s**t stuff happening. For example a child developing and dying of cancer, as has been mentioned previously. And of course many people never have that experience anyhow.

Would we all take this good living for granted and over indulge in self centred pleasure - because there would be no need for us to help others?
So not having a child die of cancer is self centred pleasure that we over indulge in, is it AB.

Would there be any real purpose left in our earthly lives?
Hmm - perhaps looking after and loving that child rather than having to mourn their death!!

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44834 on: January 23, 2023, 05:55:02 PM »
AB,

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God is the source of all existence

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God allows all that exists

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I use my gift of free will every day - as do you.

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Nature also produces profound glimpses of the joy we are all entitled to if we choose to accept Jesus as our saviour.

I asked you for arguments and you gave me assertions of blind faith instead.

Do you have any arguments to justify them?
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Étienne d'Angleterre

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44835 on: January 23, 2023, 06:08:07 PM »
Yes there are many things for which we would all like God to intervene and make good.
But if God were to intervene and take away all the bad things we perceive - what would happen to the people?  Would we all take this good living for granted and over indulge in self centred pleasure - because there would be no need for us to help others?

So, as according to you god helped you find a lost contact lens, you now take good living for granted and have no need to help others because you are too busy over indulging in self centered pleasures?  Because if finding a contact lens is your problem then in the grand scheme of things you have no problems just a minor inconvenience.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2023, 06:18:55 PM by Étienne d'Angleterre »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44836 on: January 23, 2023, 06:25:35 PM »
So, as according to you god helped you find a lost contact lens, you now take good living for granted and have no need to help others because you are too busy over indulging in self centered pleasures?  Because if finding a contact lens is your problem then in the grand scheme of things you have no problems just a minor inconvenience.
Happy New Year. Good to see you posting

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44837 on: January 24, 2023, 10:17:13 AM »
They wouldn't have to deal with s**t stuff happening. For example a child developing and dying of cancer, as has been mentioned previously. And of course many people never have that experience anyhow.
So not having a child die of cancer is self centred pleasure that we over indulge in, is it AB.
Hmm - perhaps looking after and loving that child rather than having to mourn their death!!
All human life involves us having to endure some form of suffering, and during such suffering the world can be a dark place.
But the light of Christ has come into this world - not to take away our suffering but to help us through it with hope and trust in God's love for us all.
God has given us the gift of love - from the words of saint Paul:
Love is always ready to excuse, to trust, to hope, and to endure whatever comes.
Love does not come to an end.

I would  hope that parents of the child you mention in your post could look forward to being reunited with their child in heaven.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2023, 05:23:16 PM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44838 on: January 24, 2023, 10:20:58 AM »
All human life involves us having to endure some form of suffering, and during such suffering the world can be a dark place.
But the light of Christ has come into this world - not to take away our suffering but to help us through it with hope and trust in God's love for us all.
God has given us the gift of love - from the words of saint Paul:
Love is always ready to excuse, to trust, to hope, and to endure whatever comes.
Love does not come to an end.

The parents of the child you mention in your post can look forward to being reunited with their child in heaven.
Not sure I would be too keen to turn up to a heaven rum by an entity that thinks torturing and killing babies is a good lesson for people.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44839 on: January 24, 2023, 11:25:09 AM »
AB,

Quote
All human life involves us having to endure some form of suffering, and during such suffering the world can be a dark place.
But the light of Christ has come into this world - not to take away our suffering but to help us through it with hope and trust in God's love for us all.
God has given us the gift of love - from the words of saint Paul:
Love is always ready to excuse, to trust, to hope, and to endure whatever comes.
Love does not come to an end.

The parents of the child you mention in your post can look forward to being reunited with their child in heaven.

Have you any sense at all of how disgusting that glib casuistry might seem to parents who’d actually lost a child? Would you swap their child for one of your grandchildren - after all, you could then "look forward to being reunited with... (your grand)child in heaven" so not a problem for you right?
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44840 on: January 24, 2023, 05:25:39 PM »
AB,

Have you any sense at all of how disgusting that glib casuistry might seem to parents who’d actually lost a child? Would you swap their child for one of your grandchildren - after all, you could then "look forward to being reunited with... (your grand)child in heaven" so not a problem for you right?
Yes I admit that my wording would seem rather glib to those without faith.
So I have changed my wording in the hope that it will seem less glib.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Étienne d'Angleterre

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44841 on: January 24, 2023, 05:47:16 PM »
Yes I admit that my wording would seem rather glib to those without faith.
So I have changed my wording in the hope that it will seem less glib.

I really don't think you have succeeded.

Anyway why did God help you find a lost contact lens whilst ignoring prayers from people with actual problems?

After all, presumably you will be reunited with your lost contact lens in heaven? Or will you have perfect eyesight in heaven?

Either way if the parents of a dead child can be comforted by non divine intervention because it will all be sorted in heaven why intervene with your contact lens?

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44842 on: January 24, 2023, 06:28:41 PM »
Yes I admit that my wording would seem rather glib to those without faith.
So I have changed my wording in the hope that it will seem less glib.

What I find a bit strange is you and your church's stance against abortion when after all.....

The parents (if they belong to the Catholic faith at least) of the foetus can look forward to being reunited with it in heaven.


..or is that not the case?
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44843 on: February 10, 2023, 12:58:36 PM »
In the last few posts there has been a consistent theme of identifying things which we see as wrong or imperfect and using these as evidence that there can't be an omnipotent loving God who would allow such things to happen.  The fact that we have the conscious freedom needed to contemplate our reality and identify things which are wrong or imperfect then think of ways to put them right is indicative of our spiritual nature which goes beyond basic animal instincts.  But we can use our God given abilities to think things out even further and touch on aspects of our lives which offer more profound meaning and purpose that the evolutionary survival needs.  Many volumes have been written which give spiritual insights into the possible reasons why we are allowed to exist in such an imperfect world.  In our lives we all have to endure some form of suffering and eventual death of our material bodies, and we often see such suffering and death as being unnecessary or untimely, but our limited view on life does not see the bigger picture.  So I am profoundly grateful that I am able to thank God for the gift of life and have faith that we can be delivered from the evils of this world by accepting Jesus as our Lord and Saviour who Himself chose to endure suffering and death - agonising death on a cross, to redeem mankind.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44844 on: February 10, 2023, 01:25:10 PM »
In the last few posts there has been a consistent theme of identifying things which we see as wrong or imperfect and using these as evidence that there can't be an omnipotent loving God who would allow such things to happen.

Yep.

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The fact that we have the conscious freedom

As has been repeatedly pointed out to you, that is not something that you can assert as a fact without serious questions.

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... needed to contemplate our reality and identify things which are wrong or imperfect then think of ways to put them right is indicative of our spiritual nature which goes beyond basic animal instincts.

No, it's evidence of sufficient intelligence to realise that if even we can identify flaws, then the idea of an omnipotent, omnibenevolent creator fails at the first hurdle.

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But we can use our God given abilities to think things out even further and touch on aspects of our lives which offer more profound meaning and purpose that the evolutionary survival needs.

Cheese?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVKCHZqax84

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Many volumes have been written which give spiritual insights into the possible reasons why we are allowed to exist in such an imperfect world.

It's not about allowed, it's about why would a loving god inflict that on people - there is suffering, yes, but if that suffering were somehow linked to behaviour or attitude it would be potentially justifiable, but there are good people suffering, there are children suffering... As to 'spiritual insights', you can justify anything if you invent an unsubstantiatable way of keeping score - you can suggest that my suffering has earned me a gazillion soul-points, I'm on for a high-score next time I get a flat tyre, but it's meaningless.

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In our lives we all have to endure some form of suffering and eventual death of our material bodies, and we often see such suffering and death as being unnecessary or untimely, but our limited view on life does not see the bigger picture.

Why? According to scripture, as I understand it, that's not how things were designed initially - there was to be no death, so why does there have to be now? Or is that now another allegory?

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So I am profoundly grateful that I am able to thank God for the gift of life and have faith that we can be delivered from the evils of this world by accepting Jesus as our Lord and Saviour who Himself chose to endure suffering and death - agonising death on a cross, to redeem mankind.

Why was a blood sacrifice necessary? Why can an omnibenevolent god just, you know, forgive? If Jesus died so that we're forgiven, surely I can sin as much as I'd like now, it's all good? Irreconcilable nonsense

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44845 on: February 18, 2023, 11:46:19 AM »
I heard an interesting snippet on the Chris Evans breakfast show last week.  He was speculating that perhaps we only know about 1% of everything there is to know about reality, and that even if we doubled our current knowledge there would still be 98% which remains unknown.

Of course no one knows how much there is to know, but we can be quite certain that there still remains much to discover about the reality we exist in.

So the big questions are these: 
Do we know enough about reality to be able to dismiss the concept of a Creator God, and especially the scriptural evidence of God making Himself known through numerous prophets and ultimately by becoming one of us in the person of Jesus Christ - as evidenced by numerous eye witness account in the New Testament?

And do we know enough about reality to be able to dismiss the concept of human free will in order to fit in with our knowledge of how material reactions work?

In our search for the truth, have we become blinded by current scientific knowledge?

In the "Harmony in Faith and Science" thread the videos show that there is no conflict between scientific knowledge and Christian faith.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44846 on: February 18, 2023, 01:39:13 PM »
So the big questions are these: 
Do we know enough about reality to be able to dismiss the concept of a Creator God,

Yes, because the 'God' notion is simply incoherent.

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....and especially the scriptural evidence of God making Himself known through numerous prophets and ultimately by becoming one of us in the person of Jesus Christ - as evidenced by numerous eye witness account in the New Testament?

Since, and I've asked this often, you can't provide a basis to assess the likelihood that the biblical claims aren't biased mistakes or outright lies then, especially considering the problems of provenance, it's probably best not to see them as being historical facts.

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And do we know enough about reality to be able to dismiss the concept of human free will in order to fit in with our knowledge of how material reactions work?

Since your conception of 'free will' fails as logic it can just be dismissed.

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In our search for the truth, have we become blinded by current scientific knowledge?

Not very likely - although those afflicted by irrational faith do seem to struggle to understand that faith does not equate to knowledge.

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In the "Harmony in Faith and Science" thread the videos show that there is no conflict between scientific knowledge and Christian faith.

That is because, and I did sit through a bit of the first one, and to use a technical term, these videos are evangelistic pish.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2023, 01:46:11 PM by Gordon »

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44847 on: February 18, 2023, 03:21:56 PM »
AB,

Quote
So I think you need to elaborate more on how this "model" can possibly accomplish the reasoning you claim and how it can verify the accuracy of this reasoning without any form of conscious control.
I concede that conscious control is a physical impossibility, but how can you possibly conceive of any logic without conscious control of your own thoughts?

There’s so much wrong with your approach still that it’s hard to know where to start. As clearly as I can though:

First, you need to grasp the concept of the burden of proof. It’s your assertion that consciousness as a natural phenomenon is “impossible” so it’s your job to justify the claim. You’ve either not bothered with the attempt or have only expressed your incredulity (“but how…?” etc). It’s not the job of others to tell you how consciousness works – it’s your job to show that it must work supernaturally.

Second, even without an explanation in detail the naturalistic model is the default for a reason. And that reason is that the only knowledge we’ve ever obtained is known to be knowledge at all (rather than just guessing) because it’s been verified by naturalistic means. That’s not to say that there could never be non-naturalistic phenomena (whatever that would even mean) but it does mean that you need a very strong reason to abandon the default paradigm. And, so far at least, not only do you not have a very strong reason to do that – you have reason at all.

Third, even if you could address points 1 & 2, still all you’d have is “OK, consciousness is not a function of natural laws and forces then”. That though would tell you absolutely nothing whatsoever about what it might be instead. Just inserting “God” as your answer with no evidence at all to support the claim is epistemically equivalent to saying it’s "u87to7ty". It’s just white noise.

Fourth, although our understanding so far of consciousness is far from complete we make further inroads into it all the time. Here for example is an article that describes the current two front-running contenders (global neuronal workspace (GNW), and Integrated information theory (IIT)).

Maybe one of them will turn out to be correct. Maybe neither of them will. Who can possibly say? The point though is that a problem being a hard one is not a good reason to throw up our hands and exclaim, “It must be magic then”. To the contrary, the hardness of the problem is exactly a good reason to keep working at it until we obtain a verifiable answer.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-is-consciousness/   

Fifth, as I keep explaining to you (and you keep ignoring or misrepresenting) whether we have partial answers or no answers at all at this time doesn’t help you. A "don’t know" is still a "don’t know" whichever way you look at it, and your, “aha – in that case I do know" is just very, very bad thinking. If you want to demonstrate that you do know something the absence of a different answer doesn’t help you at all – for your claim to be taken seriously you still have all your work to do to justify it.

Apart from all that though… 

   
"Don't make me come down there."

God

ekim

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44848 on: February 18, 2023, 03:57:45 PM »

So the big questions are these: 
Do we know enough about reality to be able to dismiss the concept of a Creator God, and especially the scriptural evidence of God making Himself known through numerous prophets and ultimately by becoming one of us in the person of Jesus Christ - as evidenced by numerous eye witness account in the New Testament?

And do we know enough about reality to be able to dismiss the concept of human free will in order to fit in with our knowledge of how material reactions work?

In our search for the truth, have we become blinded by current scientific knowledge?



In order to approach your questions I would say that you will need to define what you mean by 'reality' and 'God'. What you call 'scriptural evidence' is hearsay and e.g. the words attributed to Jesus are probably not recorded in the language he used ( probably Aramaic), would have been subject to the understanding or misunderstanding of the writers, translated into best fit Greek/Latin/English etc according to the understanding and prejudices of the translators.

As regards 'human free will', if 'will' is the intension to act or not act, you will have to show how this intention is free from the desire to select such an intension.

As regards your search for truth, I think you will need to distinguish between absolute truth and relative truth.  To know absolute truth I suspect that you would need to be absolute which in your religion is usually reserved to your God notion.  As regards relative truth I suspect that scientific method is better placed for this.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #44849 on: February 18, 2023, 06:18:16 PM »
AB,

Quote
I heard an interesting snippet on the Chris Evans breakfast show last week.  He was speculating that perhaps we only know about 1% of everything there is to know about reality, and that even if we doubled our current knowledge there would still be 98% which remains unknown.

Of course no one knows how much there is to know, but we can be quite certain that there still remains much to discover about the reality we exist in.

So far, so good…

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So the big questions are these:…

Oh-oh…
 
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Do we know enough about reality to be able to dismiss the concept of a Creator God,…

Who ‘dismisses the concept”? You can have any concept you like. Your problem comes when you try to assert the concept into reality with no supporting reasoning or evidence. The same goes for my concept “leprechauns” by the way,

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…and especially the scriptural evidence…

Oh dear. A book (or books) saying something is true isn’t evidence that it necessarily is true.

You do understand that right?

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…of God making Himself known through numerous prophets and ultimately by becoming one of us in the person of Jesus Christ - as evidenced by numerous eye witness account in the New Testament?

Oh stop it now. You know full well that the multiple problems with the claim to historicity here (non-contemporeity of the “witness” accounts, multiple translations by various evangelising groups, absence of independent corroboration, failure to disqualify other explanatory options etc) mean this texts cannot be treated as historical evidence at all.     

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And do we know enough about reality to be able to dismiss the concept of human free will in order to fit in with our knowledge of how material reactions work?

Yes, but that has nothing to do with “our knowledge of how material reactions work” and everything to do with the impossibility in logic of the “free” will you speculate about.

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In our search for the truth, have we become blinded by current scientific knowledge?

No - just the opposite of that. Religion(s) on the other hand…

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In the "Harmony in Faith and Science" thread the videos show that there is no conflict between scientific knowledge and Christian faith.

No they don’t. They rely either on very poor reasoning or on no reasoning at all, and thereby falsely imply that in some way scientific knowledge validates Christian faith when it does no such thing.   
"Don't make me come down there."

God