Searching for GOD...

[torridon]

What I do understand is that God has given us all the freedom to choose our own destiny.

However he didn't give us the freedom to choose our own thoughts or desires.

[Sebastian Toe]

It is God who can claim credit - not me

So if you had not prayed for her, she would have been cured anyway?

[Alan Burns]

So if you had not prayed for her, she would have been cured anyway?

As clearly explained in the Gospels, faith in prayer can enable God's power to intercede here on earth.

[Alan Burns]

However he didn't give us the freedom to choose our own thoughts or desires.

So you keep saying,
But I have freely chosen to accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour.
We all have the God given freedom to choose our own destiny.

[Sebastian Toe]

As clearly explained in the Gospels, faith in prayer can enable God's power to intercede here on earth.

What does that even mean?

[Maeght]

As clearly explained in the Gospels, faith in prayer can enable God's power to intercede here on earth.

Can't God intercede if no one prays?

[Nearly Sane]

So you keep saying,
But I have freely chosen to accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour.
We all have the God given freedom to choose our own destiny.

As you have missed my question, I'll ask it again.
What freedom did my cousin who died at 6 hours old have in choosing 'their destiny'?

[torridon]

So you keep saying,
But I have freely chosen to accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour.
We all have the God given freedom to choose our own destiny.

So, a muslim convert has likewise 'freely chosen' his destiny.  Is this the same ?

[Sebastian Toe]

As clearly explained in the Gospels, faith in prayer can enable God's power to intercede here on earth.

Would you be able to point to the verses?

[ekim]

Can't God intercede if no one prays?

According to Jesus 'God already knows your needs before you ask.'
Matt 6:8

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

As clearly explained in the Gospels, faith in prayer can enable God's power to intercede here on earth.

In the strange hall of mirrors thinking that is your faith, what does that even mean? Let’s unpack it shall we?

1. “As clearly explained in the Gospels”: OK so you’re back to using one faith claim (that the Gospels are accurate) to justify another faith claim (that prayers are answered) right?     

Does anything strike you as problematic about that?

2. “…faith in prayer…”: so it’s not the praying itself that does the job, but rather just your “faith” that it works that cured your friend right? In that case presumably so long as that’s your faith you don’t need to bother with the actual genuflecting, rituals or other debasements usually associated with praying. Just having “faith” that it works is enough. Is that right?   

3. “…can enable God's power to intercede here on earth”: oh boy. So you think there’s a god who in any case knows what's best and does what's best, but at the same time this god also needs to be “enabled” to change his mind about that by the means of the praying you do and the propitiations you make. Is that right?

Does anything strike you as being problematic about that too?

Look, rather than tie yourself into even further knots here why not just answer the question: do you think your (and your wife’s) praying had anything to do with your friend’s recovery from cancer? You introduced the anecdote remember, so it seems only fair that you explain what you meant by it doesn’t it? 

[Alan Burns]

AB,

In the strange hall of mirrors thinking that is your faith, what does that even mean? Let’s unpack it shall we?

1. “As clearly explained in the Gospels”: OK so you’re back to using one faith claim (that the Gospels are accurate) to justify another faith claim (that prayers are answered) right?     

Does anything strike you as problematic about that?

2. “…faith in prayer…”: so it’s not the praying itself that does the job, but rather just your “faith” that it works that cured your friend right? In that case presumably so long as that’s your faith you don’t need to bother with the actual genuflecting, rituals or other debasements usually associated with praying. Just having “faith” that it works is enough. Is that right?   

3. “…can enable God's power to intercede here on earth”: oh boy. So you think there’s a god who in any case knows what's best and does what's best, but at the same time this god also needs to be “enabled” to change his mind about that by the means of the praying you do and the propitiations you make. Is that right?

Does anything strike you as being problematic about that too?

Look, rather than tie yourself into even further knots here why not just answer the question: do you think your (and your wife’s) praying had anything to do with your friend’s recovery from cancer? You introduced the anecdote remember, so it seems only fair that you explain what you meant by it doesn’t it?

I do not know why you feel the need to ask me so many questions on this.  I would have thought that the answers would be obvious.  Every Christian I know has faith in the power of the prayers they make - why else would people spend so much time in prayer?  The primary aim of prayer is to bring people into a closer relationship with God and increase their faith.  Prayers for intercession are one for of prayer, but there are others such as prayers of praise and thanksgiving or forgiveness.  I have personally witnessed many amazing answers to prayers for intercession both in my life and in the lives of other people.  Of course you are free to seek reasons to dismiss such claims but you will never convince me or fellow Christians that prayers do not work.

[Alan Burns]

As you have missed my question, I'll ask it again.
What freedom did my cousin who died at 6 hours old have in choosing 'their destiny'?

My post was aimed at those who read it, who indeed will have the freedom to choose their own destiny.
Of course the destiny of such children who die young will be in God's hands.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

I do not know why you feel the need to ask me so many questions on this.

It’s because when you presume to turn up here to evangelise then you must expect questions in response.

I would have thought that the answers would be obvious.

They’re not - so humour me here...

Every Christian I know has faith in the power of the prayers they make - why else would people spend so much time in prayer?

Perhaps because faith rather than any evidence is all they have?

The primary aim of prayer is to bring people into a closer relationship with God and increase their faith.

I thought you told us it was to “enable” your god to do something He wouldn’t otherwise have done. Which is it please?

Prayers for intercession are one for of prayer, but there are others such as prayers of praise and thanksgiving or forgiveness.

No doubt.

I have personally witnessed many amazing answers to prayers for intercession both in my life and in the lives of other people.  Of course you are free to seek reasons to dismiss such claims but you will never convince me or fellow Christians that prayers do not work.

Imagine that I thoroughly shuffled a deck of cards, prayed really hard for the first four I dealt from the top to be aces and, lo and behold!, they were all aces.

Imagine also that I then claimed an answered prayer.

Would you:

1. Agree with me that my prayer had indeed been answered; or

2. Suggest instead that I run the experiment (say) 1,000 times to see whether the incidence of four prayed for consecutive aces off the top happens any more frequently than you’d expect in any case?   

If answer 2, why?

And if you can answer that, why would you also expect anyone to take your “I have personally witnessed many amazing answers to prayers for intercession both in my life and in the lives of other people” story seriously rather than to conclude these are just the kind of outcomes you’d expect to see from time-to-time whether or not praying was involved (just as four aces in a row would be)? 

Oh, and you said “I would have thought that the answers would be obvious” and then didn’t answer any of the questions you were actually asked.   

Why is that?

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

My post was aimed at those who read it, who indeed will have the freedom to choose their own destiny.
Of course the destiny of such children who die young will be in God's hands.

So you worship a psychopathic monster then?

[Nearly Sane]

My post was aimed at those who read it, who indeed will have the freedom to choose their own destiny.
Of course the destiny of such children who die young will be in God's hands.

So when you said 'All' you were wrong.

If your god chooses for those who don't in your view have a choice, how would that work? Are there any that your god would send to 'hell'? If so why?

[Sebastian Toe]

Of course the destiny of such children who die young will be in God's hands.

Even if there were prayers to keep them alive and maybe cure them of say, cancer, rather than cure a much older person who has the chance to actually lead a life?

[Alan Burns]

AB,

It’s because when you presume to turn up here to evangelise then you must expect questions in response.

They’re not - so humour me here...

Perhaps because faith rather than any evidence is all they have?

I thought you told us it was to “enable” your god to do something He wouldn’t otherwise have done. Which is it please?

No doubt.

Imagine that I thoroughly shuffled a deck of cards, prayed really hard for the first four I dealt from the top to be aces and, lo and behold!, they were all aces.

Imagine also that I then claimed an answered prayer.

Would you:

1. Agree with me that my prayer had indeed been answered; or

2. Suggest instead that I run the experiment (say) 1,000 times to see whether the incidence of four prayed for consecutive aces off the top happens any more frequently than you’d expect in any case?   

If answer 2, why?

And if you can answer that, why would you also expect anyone to take your “I have personally witnessed many amazing answers to prayers for intercession both in my life and in the lives of other people” story seriously rather than to conclude these are just the kind of outcomes you’d expect to see from time-to-time whether or not praying was involved (just as four aces in a row would be)? 

Oh, and you said “I would have thought that the answers would be obvious” and then didn’t answer any of the questions you were actually asked.   

Why is that?

I would suggest that the best way to discover the power of prayer is to try it yourself.
I recommend you begin with a sincere prayer to invite God into your life, then see what happens.

[Nearly Sane]

I would suggest that the best way to discover the power of prayer is to try it yourself.
I recommend you begin with a sincere prayer to invite God into your life, then see what happens.

We've had various 'testimonies' on this thread about that not working already posted. And posted in reply to you, I would remind you of Floo and Rhiannon. Have you forgotten them?

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

I would suggest that the best way to discover the power of prayer is to try it yourself.
I recommend you begin with a sincere prayer to invite God into your life, then see what happens.

And I would suggest you stop running away when a question is put to you that you can’t or won’t answer.

The reasons you’ve attempted so far to justify your faith claims have been idiotic. Why not address their idiocy rather than just deflect to a “try it yourself” evasion?   

[Dicky Underpants]

We've had various 'testimonies' on this thread about that not working already posted. And posted in reply to you, I would remind you of Floo and Rhiannon. Have you forgotten them?

And from Dicky boy, who is still here.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

I would suggest that the best way to discover the power of prayer is to try it yourself.
I recommend you begin with a sincere prayer to invite God into your life, then see what happens.

And another thing…

...imagine that I took your advice, tried praying to your god and then found my car keys (or whatever). Should I then do as you do - abandon my critical faculties and just conclude “goddidit”, support this assertion with either no justifying arguments at all or with arguments that are so ludicrously wrong that a child could falsify them, and then presume to evangelise this vapid nonsense to others? Or should I instead at least take the time to see whether the explanation I reached for initially (ie, an answered prayer) withstood even a moment’s scrutiny - not least to satisfy myself about that, if not to satisfy anyone else?

What do you think? Clearly you have no interest at all in even trying to make a cogent argument to justify the explanation you happen to find most comforting no matter how wrong it might be, but why on earth would you want to drag anyone else down that rabbit hole of wrongness behind you?

   

[Nearly Sane]

And from Dicky boy, who is still here.

So Alan?

[Sebastian Toe]

I recommend you begin with a sincere prayer to invite God into your life, then see what happens.

I tried that years ago.
Nothing, nada, zilch., tumbleweed.

Please don't insult me with weasel words about not trying hard enough, earnestly enough or any other "enough"
Equally please don't insult me or your God with excuses of me not being able to listen or look for the answer (if there was one).

Have you tried sincere prayers to get God to intercede and make himself obvious to the unbeliever members in this group?
If you did, what happened.
If you haven't already, why not?
Because your "logic" and souls aren't working, maybe it's time for the Big Guy to step in?

[bluehillside Retd.]

NS,

So Alan?

Alan doesn't answer questions. We're just supposed to take his unargued word for it. Apparently.