Searching for GOD...

[Maeght]

Alan - Can't God intercede if no one prays?

[Alan Burns]

I tried that years ago.
Nothing, nada, zilch., tumbleweed.

My advice would be:
Never close the door - God's timing is not always what you expect.

[Alan Burns]

Alan - Can't God intercede if no one prays?

I would not like to live in a world where no one needs to pray.

[Nearly Sane]

I would not like to live in a world where no one needs to pray.

Because you exult in the pain and suffering meted out by your capricious thug god.

[Maeght]

I would not like to live in a world where no one needs to pray.

That doesn't answer my question. But why do you say that - you prefer that people suffer so they or others have to pray for relief?

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

My advice would be:
Never close the door - God's timing is not always what you expect.

What use is your advice about that given that you can’t produce a cogent argument to suggest that any of that is true?

I would not like to live in a world where no one needs to pray.

How on earth did you think was an answer to the question, “Alan - Can't God intercede if no one prays?”?

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

I would not like to live in a world where no one needs to pray.

You do live in a world here no-one needs to pray. Sorry to break it to you. 

[Alan Burns]

NS,

Alan doesn't answer questions. We're just supposed to take his unargued word for it. Apparently.

I am sorry that my replies are not what you wish for.
It is apparent that I see the reality of this world in a much different light than yours.
In particular, I fail to comprehend how anyone can try to account for their gift of free will by claiming that it is "just the way it seems" rather than accepting it as being "just the way it is".
All I can say is that once you allow God to come into your life, you will see the world through much different eyes.

[Maeght]

I am sorry that my replies are not what you wish for.
It is apparent that I see the reality of this world in a much different light than yours.
In particular, I fail to comprehend how anyone can try to account for their gift of free will by claiming that it is "just the way it seems" rather than accepting it as being "just the way it is".
All I can say is that once you allow God to come into your life, you will see the world through much different eyes.

I'm sure if someone converts to believe in God then they see the world in a different light, that doesn't mean they are seeing actual reality though.

So, can God not intercede unless someone prays?

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

I am sorry that my replies are not what you wish for.

The problem isn’t that your replies aren’t what I wish for. The problem is that you simply won’t answer any question that’s put to you, but you expect us just to accept your claims and assertions at face value nonetheless.

Look, I’ll show you (again): you introduced an anecdote about you and your wife praying for a friend with cancer who subsequently recovered. You clearly implied therefore that you thought your praying had something to do with her recovery. When I ask you whether that is what you do think though you either vanish or deflect.

What then are we supposed to think is the point of your story?
 

It is apparent that I see the reality of this world in a much different light than yours.
In particular, I fail to comprehend how anyone can try to account for their gift of free will by claiming that it is "just the way it seems" rather than accepting it as being "just the way it is".

We’re free to see things differently from each other but fortunately (for me) we have a currency that allows us to see who’s right and who’s wrong when we do - ie, reason. When you make your various claims and (sometimes) bother to try at least to justify them with arguments, those arguments are either sound or they’re not. And we know that they’re not because they always fall into one or more of various fallacy modes - the argumentum ad consequentiam, the post hoc ergo propter hoc, the argument from incredulity etc.

This does not mean that your claims themselves are necessarily wrong by the way, but it does mean that your reasons for thinking they’re true are wrong. Dead wrong. Null and void. Kaput.

Can you see why this is, and moreover why it would actually help your cause if you did understand it and then tried instead to find some validating arguments that are sound?       

All I can say is that once you allow God to come into your life, you will see the world through much different eyes.

Yes, if ever I did believe that with no good cause as you do my “eyes” would be different inasmuch as I’d have abandoned critical thinking. Can I interest you in a bridge I have for sale? 

[Gordon]

My advice would be:
Never close the door - God's timing is not always what you expect.

In my case it had better hurry up.

Without going into too many details, we are responsible for three of our grandchildren who live with us permanently: the older one is 16, but the younger two are just 9 and 6 and will ideally need our input for some time to come but, as things stand, cancer will limit my time. I may survive long enough to see the 9 year old move from primary to secondary education but probably not the 6 year old. Therefore, if I were to be miraculously cured it would provide the stability these kids need for bit longer than currently seems likely - so it isn't just about me. Since you are the prayer advocate and have claimed success in a cancer case, what do you think my chances would be if I could arrange for some Christians to pay for a miraculous cure in my case?

No doubt you'll either ignore or fudge my question, because the reality I face can't be waffled-away by well-intentioned platitudes of the "mysterious ways" variety - and that, Alan, would be a cop-out bearing in mind what you posted about your friend.   

[torridon]

My advice would be:
Never close the door - God's timing is not always what you expect.

On the other hand, you sometimes have to know when to stop banging your head on the wall and move on.

[torridon]

So you keep saying,
But I have freely chosen to accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour.
We all have the God given freedom to choose our own destiny.

You're deluding yourself if you think your choices are really free.  If you'd been born in Karachi or Jakarta you would have 'freely chosen' the path of Islam, you could bet your house on this.

[Alan Burns]

So, can God not intercede unless someone prays?

Matthew 13:58
And he could not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.

Faith is needed for God to intercede for us.
Our secular society is turning away from God - with dire consequences (not punishments)

[Alan Burns]

In my case it had better hurry up.

Without going into too many details, we are responsible for three of our grandchildren who live with us permanently: the older one is 16, but the younger two are just 9 and 6 and will ideally need our input for some time to come but, as things stand, cancer will limit my time. I may survive long enough to see the 9 year old move from primary to secondary education but probably not the 6 year old. Therefore, if I were to be miraculously cured it would provide the stability these kids need for bit longer than currently seems likely - so it isn't just about me. Since you are the prayer advocate and have claimed success in a cancer case, what do you think my chances would be if I could arrange for some Christians to pay for a miraculous cure in my case?

I will do my best, Gordon.
A little faith on your side would help.

[Sebastian Toe]

Matthew 13:58
And he could not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.

Faith is needed for God to intercede for us.
Our secular society is turning away from God - with dire consequences (not punishments)

It says "many" not 'any".

[Gordon]

I will do my best, Gordon.
A little faith on your side would help.

I'm sure I make for a great test case, unless 'God' holds my atheism against me, since I'd imagine curing a grizzled and sceptical old atheist like me would be good PR for the cause.

[Nearly Sane]

Matthew 13:58
And he could not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.

Faith is needed for God to intercede for us.
Our secular society is turning away from God - with dire consequences (not punishments)

Those that tried to get the million dollars from James Randi had the same problem as JC. Odd that...

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

Faith is needed for God to intercede for us.

No, faith is needed to believe that “God” intercedes for us - absent any evidence to that effect though, your faith about that is all you have.
 

Our secular society is turning away from God - with dire consequences (not punishments)

Broadly secular societies correlate to better wellbeing indicators than religious ones do (literacy, educational attainment, life expectancy, teenage pregnancy rates etc). Can you actually think of a “dire consequence” of turning away from (beliefs in) god(s) therefore or is this just another unfounded claim? 

PS Any news yet by the way on whether you think your praying had anything to do with your friend’s recovery from cancer, or are you determined to keep your thoughts about that a secret? Why?

[Maeght]

Matthew 13:58
And he could not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.

Faith is needed for God to intercede for us.
Our secular society is turning away from God - with dire consequences (not punishments)

So God has limits to his powers. Man can control God's actions.

As others have said that reads to me as if because people didn't believe it meant they weren't fooled into thinking God/Jesus had answered prayers.

[Alan Burns]

AB,

Broadly secular societies correlate to better wellbeing indicators than religious ones do (literacy, educational attainment, life expectancy, teenage pregnancy rates etc). Can you actually think of a “dire consequence” of turning away from (beliefs in) god(s) therefore or is this just another unfounded claim? 

It depends on how you measure well-being
I see the increase in secular views co existing with increased abortion rates, increased suicide rates, drug misuse, erosion of family values, acceptance of euthanasia ....  Then on a global scale we should ask for God's intercession to deal with the plethora of current problems such as pandemics, wars, climate change, natural disasters ....

PS Any news yet by the way on whether you think your praying had anything to do with your friend’s recovery from cancer, or are you determined to keep your thoughts about that a secret? Why?

I would not have posted it if I did not associate our friend's recovery from cancer with our prayers.  Of course no one can say if our friend would have recovered without our prayers - you are free to write it off as a coincidence if you so wish, but throughout my lifetime there have been many such coincidences.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

It depends on how you measure well-being

Not really - the indicators used to measure wellbeing are broadly consistent (literacy, life expectancy etc).
 

I see the increase in secular views co existing with increased abortion rates, increased suicide rates, drug misuse, erosion of family values, acceptance of euthanasia ....

Where do you “see” that? What evidence have you for these statements, or are you just looking at what (say) the Daily Mail reports and ignoring the comparable incidences of these things in theocratic states? (A cognitive bias called the availability heuristic by the way, not that you'll care: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Availability_heuristic)

Then on a global scale we should ask for God's intercession to deal with the plethora of current problems such as pandemics, wars, climate change, natural disasters ....

Again, as these things seem to occur in religious societies just as much as they do in secular ones (just as you’d expect with no god around at all) why “should” anyone do that?   

I would not have posted it if I did not associate our friend's recovery from cancer with our prayers.  Of course no one can say if our friend would have recovered without our prayers - you are free to write it off as a coincidence if you so wish, but throughout my lifetime there have been many such coincidences.

So if you “would not have posted it if I did not associate our friend's recovery from cancer with our prayers”, then presumably you must think too that:

1. She wouldn’t have recovered without your prayers, and so you take some credit at least for it.

Is that right?

2. A god who knows best and acts for the best nonetheless also had His mind changed about your friend because of the praying you and your wife did.

Is that right? 
 
3. To be sure that you aren’t kidding yourself you have made a study of prayed for vs non-prayed for outcomes to determine whether there’s any difference at all in their incidence? 

Is that right?

4. Not only would your God have been indifferent to the fate of NS’s poor relative who died, but if only you’d been around to do some praying the outcome would or could have been different.

Is that right?

Is it beginning to occur to you about now that there might just be some problems with your claim? 

[Sebastian Toe]

  Then on a global scale we should ask for God's intercession to deal with the plethora of current problems such as pandemics, wars, climate change, natural disasters .

Have you been doing that over the past couple of years?

[Dicky Underpants]

It depends on how you measure well-being
I see the increase in secular views co existing with increased abortion rates, increased suicide rates, drug misuse, erosion of family values, acceptance of euthanasia .... 

I believe that Vladimir Putin is concerned about those matters, too. One of his solutions is to give more support to the Russian Orthodox Church (though I don't suppose for one millesecond he's a believer). The other part of his solution is to send the flower of Russian youth to die on the front line. Apparently the Russian Patriarch fully supports the war. Christianity eh? All in the name of the Prince of Peace.

https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=694dedd1ef109042JmltdHM9MTY3NzE5NjgwMCZpZ3VpZD0xZTRkNTZhOS1mMjUwLTY3ZWUtMDczNS00NDZiZjNlNjY2ZjAmaW5zaWQ9NTE4OQ&ptn=3&hsh=3&fclid=1e4d56a9-f250-67ee-0735-446bf3e666f0&psq=Russian+Patriarch+on+the+Ukraine+war&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cucmZlcmwub3JnL2EvcnVzc2lhLXBhdHJpYXJjaC1raXJpbGwtZHlpbmctdWtyYWluZS1zaW5zLzMyMDUyMzgwLmh0bWw&ntb=1

[ProfessorDavey]

I see the increase in secular views co existing with increased abortion rates, increased suicide rates, drug misuse,

Except that in all three of cases there certainly seems to be no evidence that a highly secular society, with low levels of religiosity - e.g. such as those in parts of western europe - have lower rates of abortion:
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/abortion-rates-by-country

suicide:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

or drug abuse:
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/drug-use-by-country

Indeed in each case the countries at the top, Russia, Lesotho, Afghanistan are certainly not secular.

erosion of family values, acceptance of euthanasia ....

Unlike the stats above this is highly subjective - so to my mind extending the ability of people to get married and have children beyond traditional narrowly defined married heterosexual couples is extending, not eroding, family values.