Searching for GOD...

[Walt Zingmatilder]

As are others, not to invoke magic.

The term magic has been introduced into this debate by Hillside in an act of committing the horses laugh fallacy.

Effectively he is calling doubt of his dogmatic physicalism and Scientism “magic”. The horses laugh fallacy is perhaps the last refuge of the scoundrel.

On the other hand I have stated that when or if a comprehensive mechanistic explanation of consciousness and self appears I would accept it.

It would be wrong to attribute such open mindedness to some on this forum. Not on the grounds of openness, more on the grounds of mindlessness.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

The term magic has been introduced into this debate by Hillside in an act of committing the horses laugh fallacy.

No Hillside didn’t. For epistemic purposes “Goddidit”, “It’s a mystery”, “It’s magic innit” etc are synonyms.   

Effectively he is calling doubt of his dogmatic physicalism and Scientism “magic”.

I’ve called you out on this lie many times without even a response, let alone an apology for your straw man. I’ve explained to you over and again why I am neither of these things (though it eems you apparently are - see my last post here), and challenged you to cite an example of me ever suggesting otherwise. You have never been able to do that, so why not just stop lying about it now?   

The horses laugh fallacy is perhaps the last refuge of the scoundrel.

You’d know about scoundrelly behaviour, but in any case perhaps you should start by trying to find an example of its use before you tell us what you think it would say about its author. 

On the other hand I have stated that when or if a comprehensive mechanistic explanation of consciousness and self appears I would accept it.

Yes, religious people through the ages have claimed divine causation for unexplained phenomena right up until the moment they are explained, at which point (or generally a lot later - see Galileo etc) they scurry away to find something else unexplained that was supposedly god’s doing. Had you been a Viking you’d have been telling us that thunder was Thor’s doing, but that “if a comprehensive mechanistic explanation” of thunder appeared you would accept it.

So what though?

It would be wrong to attribute such open mindedness to some on this forum.

Hysterical - given your long history here of evasions, straw manning, countless logical cock-ups and flat out lying what on earth “open mindedness” do you think you’re exhibiting?

Not on the grounds of openness, more on the grounds of mindlessness.

Again, you’d know all about that I guess.

[Sebastian Toe]

The term magic has been introduced into this debate by Hillside in an act of committing the horses laugh fallacy.

Effectively he is calling doubt of his dogmatic physicalism and Scientism “magic”. The horses laugh fallacy is perhaps the last refuge of the scoundrel.

On the other hand I have stated that when or if a comprehensive mechanistic explanation of consciousness and self appears I would accept it.

It would be wrong to attribute such open mindedness to some on this forum. Not on the grounds of openness, more on the grounds of mindlessness.

As are others, not to invoke goddidit.

[Alan Burns]

Yes, religious people through the ages have claimed divine causation for unexplained phenomena right up until the moment they are explained, at which point (or generally a lot later - see Galileo etc) they scurry away to find something else unexplained that was supposedly god’s doing. Had you been a Viking you’d have been telling us that thunder was Thor’s doing, but that “if a comprehensive mechanistic explanation” of thunder appeared you would accept it.

So what though?

You are very mistaken if you believe that Christian faith is entirely dependent of finding things which are difficult or impossible to explain with current knowledge.  My faith is based upon the God who has made Himself known to me in so many different ways.  Every day I discover more about the reality which deepens my faith and knowledge in the one who has brought salvation to all those who believe in Him and who can put their trust in Him.  Our brief life on this earth is not long enough to discover all there is to know about the God who saves us and delivers us from evil.

[torridon]

You are very mistaken if you believe that Christian faith is entirely dependent of finding things which are difficult or impossible to explain with current knowledge.  My faith is based upon the God who has made Himself known to me in so many different ways.  Every day I discover more about the reality which deepens my faith and knowledge in the one who has brought salvation to all those who believe in Him and who can put their trust in Him.  Our brief life on this earth is not long enough to discover all there is to know about the God who saves us and delivers us from evil.

OK, describe then, what is he/she/it like ?

[Alan Burns]

OK, describe then, what is he/she/it like ?

It would be impractical to write down a lifetime's experience of getting to know God in a forum post.  Many volumes have been written on the subject by the great Christian writers such as Aquinas.  But you have a long way to go, Torri, if you have not yet discovered your own spiritual self.

[Sebastian Toe]

You are very mistaken if you believe that Christian faith is entirely dependent of finding things which are difficult or impossible to explain with current knowledge.  My faith is based upon the God who has made Himself known to me in so many different ways.  Every day I discover more about the reality which deepens my faith and knowledge in the one who has brought salvation to all those who believe in Him and who can put their trust in Him.  Our brief life on this earth is not long enough to discover all there is to know about the God who saves us and delivers us from evil.

Alan, I'm worried that you might have been hypnotised into believing all of that!

After all this might have happened to you and you would not be aware of it, would you?

What the hypnotist does, using his consciously driven expertise, is to program the material brain to override the control of the person's own conscious self.

How could you ensure that you are not experiencing all of this with a reprogrammed mind?

[torridon]

It would be impractical to write down a lifetime's experience of getting to know God in a forum post.  Many volumes have been written on the subject by the great Christian writers such as Aquinas.  But you have a long way to go, Torri, if you have not yet discovered your own spiritual self.

So, a quick side step, avoiding any direct answer.  As expected.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Alan, I'm worried that you might have been hypnotised into believing all of that!

By somebody swinging a large pocket watch?

[Sebastian Toe]

By somebody swinging a large pocket watch?

You might find the odd stage one who does that for theatrical value but professional hypnotists don't.

Glad I could help

[Outrider]

Eliminationism means making the actual thing in question redundant, often by referring to it as an illusion.

You will see it in action when reductionism is denied on the grounds that there was nothing to reduce.

Reductionism doesn't need to be eliminative but some operators don't like to be identified doing the reductionism they are so obviously and stinkingly nvolved in

You can put as many titles on it as you like, we're still in a position where your best stance is 'we still don't absolutely know' whilst you try to pitch bronze age magical thinking against science's track record.

O.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

You might find the odd stage one who does that for theatrical value but professional hypnotists don't.

Glad I could help

Perhaps you could use your expertise then to explain how Alan was hypnotised.

[Sebastian Toe]

Perhaps you could use your expertise then to explain how Alan was hypnotised.

If he was hypnotised it would have been by whatever method the hypnotist used.
Isn't that obvious, even to you?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

You can put as many titles on it as you like, we're still in a position where your best stance is 'we still don't absolutely know' whilst you try to pitch bronze age magical thinking against science's track record.

O.

Perhaps you could rephrase that so it looks less like a fallacy of modernity and horses laugh fallacy.
It could be argued that the insights of the ancients are often more personally edifying than knowing facts about the reptilian brain, neurones etc as interesting and entertaining as those things are.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

If he was hypnotised it would have been by whatever method the hypnotist used.
Isn't that obvious, even to you?

Yes, what method was that? Do you know or do you just have tremendous faith in hypnotists.

The only hypnotist I know of who has allegedly hypnotised into being religious was Derren Brown...
But when you come to think about it, it’s all very unscientific, he is an illusionist, it was done on TV, for entertainment purposes and it was temporary. I’m sure that wasn’t Alan’s experience.

I think this is you thinking Alan is of weaker mind than you a variant of the ‘oi......nutter!” School of knuckle dragging religious criticism.

[Outrider]

Perhaps you could rephrase that so it looks less like a fallacy of modernity and horses laugh fallacy.

Perhaps I could, if it were, but it's not, so I won't. Science has a demonstrable track record of investigating and explaining natural phenomena. Religion has centuries of history of coming up with ideas, failing to be able to validate any of them, and ending up with a thousand equally unverifiable stories of magic.

It could be argued that the insights of the ancients are often more personally edifying than knowing facts about the reptilian brain, neurones etc as interesting and entertaining as those things are.

That the stories make you feel tingly says more about you than about whether they have any factual validity.

To restate my point, then, we're left with 'we don't know' and you putting up fairy tales because they make you feel mushy in your special place instead of following the evidence to a likely partial explanation.

O.

[Sebastian Toe]

Yes, what method was that? Do you know or do you just have tremendous faith in hypnotists.

The only hypnotist I know of who has allegedly hypnotised into being religious was Derren Brown...
But when you come to think about it, it’s all very unscientific, he is an illusionist, it was done on TV, for entertainment purposes and it was temporary. I’m sure that wasn’t Alan’s experience.

I think this is you thinking Alan is of weaker mind than you a variant of the ‘oi......nutter!” School of knuckle dragging religious criticism.

I am assuming that Alan is an intelligent man
Are you?


Generally, highly motivated, intelligent individuals are the best hypnotic subjects because of their ability to concentrate , exhibitionists, with the exception of those who use resistance as an attention-getting device, are easy to hypnotize. Imbeciles, morons, senile persons, certain types of psychotics, and children under 6 years of age, who are incapable of concentrating, are difficult or impossible to hypnotize

From

https://doctorlib.info/psychiatry/hypnosis/6.html

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Perhaps I could, if it were, but it's not, so I won't. Science has a demonstrable track record of investigating and explaining natural phenomena. Religion has centuries of history of coming up with ideas, failing to be able to validate any of them, and ending up with a thousand equally unverifiable stories of magic.

That the stories make you feel tingly says more about you than about whether they have any factual validity.

To restate my point, then, we're left with 'we don't know' and you putting up fairy tales because they make you feel mushy in your special place instead of following the evidence to a likely partial explanation.

O.

You still can't admit the fallacy of modernity and intellectual arrogance here.
Other than that your post is another science versus religion post.
I could agree with everything science has found and still not be an atheist in fact using science as an excuse for your swivel eyed brand of atheism is a bit lame in my opinion.

[Outrider]

You still can't admit the fallacy of modernity and intellectual arrogance here.

Does science have a demonstrable track record of uncovering how various aspects of the physical universe operate? Does religion have a similar track record? The fallacy of modernity would be claiming that because science is newer it's better, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that science has a demonstrably better track record in this particular field, and therefore is a better bet.

Other than that your post is another science versus religion post.

On a particular question where science has a track record and religion has nothing.

I could agree with everything science has found and still not be an atheist in fact using science as an excuse for your swivel eyed brand of atheism is a bit lame in my opinion.

You could agree that science works, or not agree that science works, and science will still be demonstrably effective. I'm not an atheist because of science, I'm an atheist because the claims of religion fail to stack up all on their own merits. Nice ad hominem, by the way - is there any brand of atheism that you don't think is 'swivel-eyed anti-theist homonculism' of one form or another?

O.

[Alan Burns]

OK, describe then, what is he/she/it like ?

To discover what God is like, you need to read the New Testament with an open mind, rather that trying to pick fault with it.  Try to discover the true meaning and purpose conveyed in the eye witness accounts of the life of Jesus.  Find out what inspired numerous saints to offer their lives as service to others and to God.  See what has caused life changing experiences for recent actors who have played the role of Jesus - Jim Caviezel (the Passion) and Jonathan Roumie (the Chosen) have both become powerful Christian witnesses since playing their roles.  Jesus will make Himself known to you if you allow Him into your life rather that putting up barriers.

[Maeght]

To discover what God is like, you need to read the New Testament with an open mind, rather that trying to pick fault with it.  Try to discover the true meaning and purpose conveyed in the eye witness accounts of the life of Jesus.  Find out what inspired numerous saints to offer their lives as service to others and to God.  See what has caused life changing experiences for recent actors who have played the role of Jesus - Jim Caviezel (the Passion) and Jonathan Roumie (the Chosen) have both become powerful Christian witnesses since playing their roles.  Jesus will make Himself known to you if you allow Him into your life rather that putting up barriers.

What eye witnesses?

[Outrider]

To discover what God is like, you need to read the New Testament with an open mind, rather that trying to pick fault with it.  Try to discover the true meaning and purpose conveyed in the eye witness accounts of the life of Jesus.  Find out what inspired numerous saints to offer their lives as service to others and to God.  See what has caused life changing experiences for recent actors who have played the role of Jesus - Jim Caviezel (the Passion) and Jonathan Roumie (the Chosen) have both become powerful Christian witnesses since playing their roles.  Jesus will make Himself known to you if you allow Him into your life rather that putting up barriers.

This is the New Testament that starts with the central conceit that Rome decreed everyone in at least Israel had to return to their place of birth for some sort of census, and event that the entirety of the rest of history fails to record? I've tried to read with an open mind, but in order to accept the claims of the New Testament you'd have to accommodate the schizophrenically different characterisation of God which suggests that it's not based on the same person, but the story's internal logic requires it to do so. In order to accept the claims of the New Testament you have to be so open minded that you also have to accept the equally inconsistent, nonsensical, magical claims of the Qu'ran, the Old Testament, the Hindu scriptures, the Draconomicon, the Egyptian Book of the Dead, the Silmarillion and Dan Brown, and I'm afraid I just can't go so far as to accept Dan Brown.

O.

[Enki]

To discover what God is like, you need to read the New Testament with an open mind, rather that trying to pick fault with it.  Try to discover the true meaning and purpose conveyed in the eye witness accounts of the life of Jesus.  Find out what inspired numerous saints to offer their lives as service to others and to God.  See what has caused life changing experiences for recent actors who have played the role of Jesus - Jim Caviezel (the Passion) and Jonathan Roumie (the Chosen) have both become powerful Christian witnesses since playing their roles.  Jesus will make Himself known to you if you allow Him into your life rather that putting up barriers.

Not the Jim Caviezel, already a strong Catholic from a devout Catholic family, who got up all close and comfy with the conspiratorial far right organization, QAnon,  and has promoted the ridiculous subject of the adrenochrome harvesting conspiracy. Surely not!

[ekim]

What eye witnesses?

?Mary? ..... https://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/gospelmary.html

[torridon]

To discover what God is like, you need to read the New Testament with an open mind, rather that trying to pick fault with it.  Try to discover the true meaning and purpose conveyed in the eye witness accounts of the life of Jesus.  Find out what inspired numerous saints to offer their lives as service to others and to God.  See what has caused life changing experiences for recent actors who have played the role of Jesus - Jim Caviezel (the Passion) and Jonathan Roumie (the Chosen) have both become powerful Christian witnesses since playing their roles.  Jesus will make Himself known to you if you allow Him into your life rather that putting up barriers.

 
Anyone can read the narratives in scriptures and come to an opinion about them, what parts may be plausible, which parts not. But this is not what you claim, though, you claim a personal relationship, quite a different thing, and describing that is what you are sidestepping.