Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3892380 times)

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #45825 on: April 19, 2023, 01:19:45 PM »
Vlad,

Just as you persuade yourself that you haven’t encountered leprechauns right?
According to you I would have had to persuade my self i'd met them first. You are moving the goalposts here.


Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #45826 on: April 19, 2023, 01:28:55 PM »


See above. You can tell yourself you’ve “self-explored” anything you like,   
In this case i'm suggesting that you self explore and that it might be a first for you.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #45827 on: April 19, 2023, 01:59:25 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
That's enough to be guilty of argument from incredulity.....

Oh dear. No it isn’t:

An "Argument from incredulity, also known as argument from personal incredulity, appeal to common sense, or the divine fallacy,[1] is a fallacy in informal logic. It asserts that a proposition must be false because it contradicts one's personal expectations or beliefs, or is difficult to imagine.

Arguments from incredulity can take the form:

1.   I cannot imagine how F could be true; therefore F must be false.
2.   I cannot imagine how F could be false; therefore F must be true
.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_incredulity#:~:text=Argument%20from%20incredulity%2C%20also%20known,or%20is%20difficult%20to%20imagine.

Incredulity though can also be “the state of being unwilling or unable to believe something” for good reason – in this case the good reason is the paucity of evidence for the claim. 

Try to understand this so you can avoid the same mistake in future.

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The business about buying a bridge is horses laugh fallacy.


Wrong again The “horse’s laugh fallacy” (ie, the appeal to ridicule) is as follows:

Appeal to ridicule is often found in the form of comparing a nuanced circumstance or argument to a laughably commonplace occurrence or to some other irrelevancy on the basis of comedic timing, wordplay, or making an opponent and their argument the object of a joke. This is a rhetorical tactic that mocks an opponent's argument or standpoint, attempting to inspire an emotional reaction (making it a type of appeal to emotion) in the audience and to highlight any counter-intuitive aspects of that argument, making it appear foolish and contrary to common sense. This is typically done by making a mockery of the argument's foundation that represents it in an uncharitable and oversimplified way. The person using the tactic often utilizes sarcasm in their argument.[2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_ridicule

You though don’t have a “a nuanced circumstance or argument” to be fallaciously challenged with “a laughably commonplace occurrence or … some other irrelevancy on the basis of comedic timing, wordplay, or making an opponent and their argument the object of a joke”. On the contrary, you just assert your claims (of an “encounter’ for example) to be true and that’s the end of the matter – in other words, offering to sell you a bridge rests on precisely the same credulity I demand for my bridge as you demand for your encounter.

Again, try to understand this so you can avoid the same mistake in future.

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Just as you persuade yourself that you haven’t encountered leprechauns right?
According to you I would have had to persuade my self i'd met them first. You are moving the goalposts here.

Wrong again – see whether you can work out for yourself where you went wrong again there. I’ll give you a clue though: when you shift the burden of proof by claiming “I suppose you then test it by trying to persuade your self you hadn't encountered it” that same “then test it” could apply to any claim of any encounter with anything.   

Again, try to understand this too so you can avoid the same mistake in future.

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In this case i'm suggesting that you self explore and that it might be a first for you.

I was on an aeroplane yesterday travelling about 34,000 ft. Even if it’d had a sun roof I doubt I’d have been able to spot how far this point had gone over your head. The POINT here is that just claiming to have “self-explored” a narrative you then found to be persuasive tells neither you nor anyone else the tiniest thing about whether or not your conclusion is justified.

As I explained to you (and you just ignored) countless mystics and suchlike have “self-explored” many notions for much longer and deeper than you have “self-explored” your pet superstitions and reached different conclusions entirely. (Even) you should be able to deduce from this that self-exploration is epistemically worthless unless you find an objective means to validate your conclusions – you know, the problem you always run away from.

Once again, try to understand this too so you can avoid the same mistake in future.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #45828 on: April 19, 2023, 02:25:51 PM »
I am intrigued as to why so many non believers choose to post on a thread entitled "Searching for God".
Do they wish to dissuade people who are genuinely searching for God?
Do they need to defend their non belief in God?
Do they want to convert those who have found God to their own belief?
Or are they themselves searching for God - perhaps without realising it?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #45829 on: April 19, 2023, 02:40:20 PM »

Oh, and the number of people who honestly claim to have encountered Mohammed in their lives is greater than the number of people who think they’ve encountered Jesus.
I know many Muslims - none of whom claim to have encountered Mohammed in their lives.
Mohammed himself claims to have encountered God, but his revelations about God differ greatly from those I know who have experienced personal encounters with God in the name of Jesus.  I hope and pray that one day you will be able to open the door and let Jesus into your life - then you will know why we should never stop "Searching for God".
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #45830 on: April 19, 2023, 02:40:24 PM »
I am intrigued as to why so many non believers choose to post on a thread entitled "Searching for God".
Do they wish to dissuade people who are genuinely searching for God?
Do they need to defend their non belief in God?
Do they want to convert those who have found God to their own belief?
Or are they themselves searching for God - perhaps without realising it?
Why don't you ask Jesus?
He'll know.
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #45831 on: April 19, 2023, 02:46:52 PM »

Mohammed himself claims to have encountered God, but his revelations about God differ greatly from those I know who have experienced personal encounters with God in the name of Jesus. 
No he didn't claim that at all.
Try again.
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #45832 on: April 19, 2023, 03:08:03 PM »
AB,

Quote
I am intrigued as to why so many non believers choose to post on a thread entitled "Searching for God".

Why are you intrigued by that? The conversations here have long since moved away from the original OP – this just happened to become a home for multiple and wide-ranging conversations about all sorts of matters is all. 

There’s a lesson here too for you by the way when you unwittingly stumble into the survivorship fallacy (“If Christianity isn’t true, how comes it’s been so successful?” etc). Many things become “successful” (as here with thousands of replies) for reasons that have nothing to do with the veracity or validity of the thing itself.

Quote
Do they wish to dissuade people who are genuinely searching for God?
Do they need to defend their non belief in God?
Do they want to convert those who have found God to their own belief?
Or are they themselves searching for God - perhaps without realising it?

Others must speak for themselves, but for me it’s an opportunity to test whether the reasons people here attempt to justify their claim(s) “god” are cogent. So far at least though, none of them have been.

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I know many Muslims - none of whom claim to have encountered Mohammed in their lives.
Mohammed himself claims to have encountered God, but his revelations about God differ greatly from those I know who have experienced personal encounters with God in the name of Jesus.  I hope and pray that one day you will be able to open the door and let Jesus into your life - then you will know why we should never stop "Searching for God".

You’ve missed the point entirely. You attempted a fallacy called the argmentum ad populum (as indeed you’ve attempted it often in the past, so you have no excuse for repeating it now).

Imagine just for funsies that Jesus really was a reincarnated man/god, and that the first disciple to believe that proclaimed it to be so. Now imagine that a passing Roman Marcus Ginandtonicus (with apologies to Asterix) said, “but you’re the only one who believes that, whereas the other 99.99% of us believe in the Roman gods” would he have had a sound argument do you think?

Why not?

In other words, epistemology isn’t a popularity contest.

You really should understand this by now.       
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God

Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #45833 on: April 19, 2023, 04:15:53 PM »
Then you have to explain how this mutation occurs peculiarly or especially in judeo christianity and christian literature and not in the Roman histories, or Homer or Plato or Josephus or Buddhism or Islam etc, etc.

The Roman and Josephus accounts talk about Christians, not about Christ himself - from context it's presumed that they existence of Jesus is accepted at the time.

If you don't think Homer's accounts of the events during and after the Trojan War are 'mutated' then I'm curious as to why you worship the Christian God and not the twelve Olympian Gods.

Islamic accounts talk about, to my admittedly limited knowledge, Mohammed flying away at his death on a winged horse - you think that's an accurate account of someone that scholars universally accept was a real person.

This 'mythologisation' of real figures is not even close to uniquely a Christian artefact.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

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Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #45834 on: April 19, 2023, 04:16:57 PM »
I am intrigued as to why so many non believers choose to post on a thread entitled "Searching for God".
Do they wish to dissuade people who are genuinely searching for God?
Do they need to defend their non belief in God?
Do they want to convert those who have found God to their own belief?
Or are they themselves searching for God - perhaps without realising it?

I have in the past searched for a Christian God as I have already mentioned. I found the whole thing personally unsatisfactory and lacking in credibility.

My reasons for reading and occasionally taking part on this thread are to hear the arguments or ideas put forward by those of a Christian persuasion. So far, like Blue, I find them unconvincing but, being of a reasonably open mind, I am quite happy to be convinced should the argument or viewpoint be deserving. In your case, your own attempts at argument and persuasion simply help remind me why I found such arguments as you propose so unsatisfactory in the past. However I do, at times, find them entertaining enough to respond to, even though I know full well that my responses will always have the probability of being dismissed out of hand.

So my answer to your four questions are:
Not at all. It's completely up to them. I'll usually only make an input about my own beliefs if I'm asked.
No.
See answer to question one.
I have no reason to think so, but if I don't realise it, I wouldn't be aware of it.


On the other hand let me ask you a series of questions.

Do you wish to influence people who are genuinely searching for God with your own belief?
Do you need to defend your belief in God?
Do you want to convert those who are atheistically minded to your belief?
Or are you doubting your own belief - perhaps without realising it?

Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
Steven Wright

Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #45835 on: April 19, 2023, 04:20:18 PM »
I am intrigued as to why so many non believers choose to post on a thread entitled "Searching for God".

Because the point of being an atheist in public is to ensure that people aren't hoodwinked by centuries of well-honed flim-flam.

Quote
Do they wish to dissuade people who are genuinely searching for God?

Not dissuade, necessarily. Inform, and if people with more information choose not to believe then so be it, but at least if they do still go on to 'find God' it's an informed person.

Quote
Do they need to defend their non belief in God?

Do you need to defend your non-belief in the 2900+ gods that you don't believe in?

Quote
Do they want to convert those who have found God to their own belief?

What belief would that be? We're atheists, we're only united in lacking one particular belief, on everything else we could conceivably be all over the place.

Quote
Or are they themselves searching for God - perhaps without realising it?

Only to the extent that some people glibly assert 'God is truth'...

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #45836 on: April 19, 2023, 05:05:13 PM »


I was on an aeroplane yesterday travelling about 34,000 ft.
And believe me I am flattered at the lengths you'll go to to graciously answer my posts.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #45837 on: April 19, 2023, 05:12:54 PM »
I have in the past searched for a Christian God as I have already mentioned. I found the whole thing personally unsatisfactory and lacking in credibility.

My reasons for reading and occasionally taking part on this thread are to hear the arguments or ideas put forward by those of a Christian persuasion. So far, like Blue, I find them unconvincing but, being of a reasonably open mind, I am quite happy to be convinced should the argument or viewpoint be deserving. In your case, your own attempts at argument and persuasion simply help remind me why I found such arguments as you propose so unsatisfactory in the past. However I do, at times, find them entertaining enough to respond to, even though I know full well that my responses will always have the probability of being dismissed out of hand.

So my answer to your four questions are:
Not at all. It's completely up to them. I'll usually only make an input about my own beliefs if I'm asked.
No.
See answer to question one.
I have no reason to think so, but if I don't realise it, I wouldn't be aware of it.


On the other hand let me ask you a series of questions.

Do you wish to influence people who are genuinely searching for God with your own belief?
Do you need to defend your belief in God?
Do you want to convert those who are atheistically minded to your belief?
Or are you doubting your own belief - perhaps without realising it?
o you think there is a world view that is satisfactory? I'm afraid when I summarise yours and Bluehillside's world view I get the entirely unsatisfactory ''we don't know but we know it isn't God.'' Hillside of course thinks that a Godless universe is the default position although he has never been at all open in how he has come to think that.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #45838 on: April 19, 2023, 05:18:00 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
And believe me I am flattered at the lengths you'll go to to graciously answer my posts.

Then perhaps if would be nice if you ever bothered to answer mine, whether graciously or otherwise.

You could for example start with the four corrections I took the time to give you in my earlier post. 
"Don't make me come down there."

God

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #45839 on: April 19, 2023, 05:27:50 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
o you think there is a world view that is satisfactory?

Satisfactory or not, it’s a “world view” that aligns with the facts available – rather than the world view of just making shit up to plug the gaps when the facts run out. 

Quote
I'm afraid when I summarise yours and Bluehillside's world view I get the entirely unsatisfactory ''we don't know but we know it isn't God.''

It would help if you stopped lying about that. It’s actually, “we don’t know, but there’s no god reason to think “godiddit” is an answer”.   

Quote
Hillside of course thinks that a Godless universe is the default position although he has never been at all open in how he has come to think that.

And the lying just continues with you doesn’t it. Suffice it to say that I’ve explained it to you several times without rebuttal. Just ignoring the explanations you’re given and later claiming that they haven’t been described is just more of your relentless mendacity. 
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #45840 on: April 19, 2023, 05:45:45 PM »
Vlad,

Satisfactory or not, it’s a “world view” that aligns with the facts available – rather than the world view of just making shit up to plug the gaps when the facts run out.
When facts run out Hillside it's time to buy a new set of trivial pursuit......And that's about the level of significance of running out of scientific facts. Making shit up? Any shit seems acceptable to you if it means delaying the inevitable acceptance of the meaning of contingency and necessity and their implications. Any shit being infinite regression, just is ism, God like aliens, circular heirarchies of existence and the default position of agnosticism unless atheism serves the argument better at the time. I'm afraid your world view is physicalism with a side order of scientism...and yes I am saying those things as if they are bad things.
 

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #45841 on: April 19, 2023, 05:59:33 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
When facts run out Hillside it's time to buy a new set of trivial pursuit......

No, it’s time to be honest and say “we don’t know”.

Try to remember this in future.

Quote
And that's about the level of significance of running out of scientific facts.

Wrong again. When science (or any other method) runs out, then “don’t know” is the only remaining answer that’s honest.

Try to remember this in future too.
 
Quote
Making shit up? Any shit seems acceptable to you if it means delaying the inevitable acceptance of the meaning of contingency and necessity and their implications.

More lying doesn’t help you here either. “We don’t know” isn’t answered by inserting a god that also produces “we don’t know” when you ask the same questions about that god. And no, "it's magic innit" doesn't get you off that hook either.

Try to remember this too. 

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Any shit being infinite regression, just is ism, God like aliens, circular heirarchies of existence and the default position of agnosticism unless atheism serves the argument better at the time.

And for those of us working in English?

Quote
I'm afraid your world view is physicalism with a side order of scientism...and yes I am saying those things as if they are bad things.

They are bad things – and they’re complete lies too as I’ve only ever argued for pretty much the opposite of both.

Just out of interest, how does this work for you – do you get up each morning and think “how many flat out lies can I cram into a stream of semi-literate (at best) posts on a website before bedtime?”

What do you get from all that blatant lying though?   
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God

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #45842 on: April 19, 2023, 06:05:58 PM »
And there is evidence of Christ and a very early community that believe how christians believe today.
The Claim that this is probably an itinerent magician and miracle worker whose story mutated seems the narrative with less evidence here.

There is evidence that Jesus existed and that some people believed he was resurrected fairly early on, yes. But as I said, that isn't convincing to me that he was resurrected. We know that itinerant preachers existed at that time and we know that stories do mutate. I wouldn't claim it as fact but something which seems more probable than someone raising from the dead.

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #45843 on: April 19, 2023, 06:10:25 PM »
I am intrigued as to why so many non believers choose to post on a thread entitled "Searching for God".
Do they wish to dissuade people who are genuinely searching for God?
Do they need to defend their non belief in God?
Do they want to convert those who have found God to their own belief?
Or are they themselves searching for God - perhaps without realising it?

Why do you post if you've already found God?

It's a discussion forum - that's what we do here.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #45844 on: April 19, 2023, 06:26:09 PM »
There is evidence that Jesus existed and that some people believed he was resurrected fairly early on, yes. But as I said, that isn't convincing to me that he was resurrected. We know that itinerant preachers existed at that time and we know that stories do mutate. I wouldn't claim it as fact but something which seems more probable than someone raising from the dead.
Stories uncommitted to any form of literature may mutate but I would question an effective singling out of the Christian story.
There is no convincing theory of mutation on offer here so we need to here a blow by blow account of how a story mutated.

There is probably no physical evidence of the resurrection available but encounter with the Christ of revelations chapter 3 verse 20  renders the resurrection plausible and acceptable.

I agree with Alan that it is a wonder Jesus still commands such attention from believers unbelievers enemies and fellow travellers alike

Something peculiar is going on.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #45845 on: April 19, 2023, 06:36:36 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
Stories uncommitted to any form of literature may mutate but I would question an effective singling out of the Christian story.

What makes you think it was “singled out”, and in any case aside from a severe case of confirmation bias to support your liking for feeling all fuzzy inside why would you question it?
 
Quote
There is no convincing theory of mutation on offer here so we need to here a blow by blow account of how a story mutated.

Don’t be stu... – oh wait, it’s you isn’t it. Oh well, in any case any game of Chinese whispers will tell you that stories will often rapidly mutate even in very proximate circumstances. 

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There is probably no physical evidence of the resurrection available…

“Probably...”?

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…but encounter with the Christ of revelations chapter 3 verse 20  renders the resurrection plausible and acceptable.

Not unless there’s good reason to think Jesus was dead for a bit before then there isn’t. And you just shot yourself in the foot on that one with ”There is probably no physical evidence of the resurrection available…” didn’t you. 

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I agree with Alan that it is a wonder Jesus still commands such attention from believers unbelievers enemies and fellow travellers alike

“Jesus” doesn’t – the religion that claims to act in his image though and its doings in the real world though does.

Quote
Something peculiar is going on.

You said it.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2023, 07:09:24 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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God

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #45846 on: April 19, 2023, 07:07:59 PM »
Stories uncommitted to any form of literature may mutate but I would question an effective singling out of the Christian story.
There is no convincing theory of mutation on offer here so we need to here a blow by blow account of how a story mutated.

There is probably no physical evidence of the resurrection available but encounter with the Christ of revelations chapter 3 verse 20  renders the resurrection plausible and acceptable.

I agree with Alan that it is a wonder Jesus still commands such attention from believers unbelievers enemies and fellow travellers alike

Something peculiar is going on.

the Christian story isn't being singled out, but is what we are talking about here.

There is no physical evidence of the resurrection - no probably about it.

No idea what Revelations 3:20 means or what relevance it has in terms of evidence. can you explain?

Can't see what s peculiar about discussing Christianity.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #45847 on: April 19, 2023, 07:36:45 PM »
Maeght,

Quote
No idea what Revelations 3:20 means or what relevance it has in terms of evidence. can you explain?

Revelation 3:20 (New International Version):

Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.”

So to take seriously Vlad’s claim that this “renders the resurrection plausible and acceptable” all you have to do now is:

1. Accept that Jesus ever actually said it rather than it was just attributed to him perhaps decades later;

2. Accept that the recording of it and the multiple translations of it thereafter are accurate;

3. Accept that Jesus was telling the truth, and that he was capable of knowing it to be true rather than just making a faith claim of his own; and

4. Accept that the same Jesus was also dead for a bit and then alive again before he turned up cold calling at someone’s door to invite himself to dinner, even though Vlad has already told us that “there is probably no physical evidence of the resurrection available”.

And on these desperately flimsy grounds is built the entire tottering edifice of Vlad’s belief in a resurrection it seems.

Ah well.   
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #45848 on: April 19, 2023, 07:40:25 PM »
Maeght,

Revelation 3:20 (New International Version):

Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.”

So to take seriously Vlad’s claim that this “renders the resurrection plausible and acceptable” all you have to do now is:

1. Accept that Jesus ever actually said it rather than it was just attributed to him perhaps decades later;

2. Accept that the recording of it and the multiple translations of it thereafter are accurate;

3. Accept that Jesus was telling the truth, and that he was capable of knowing it to be true rather than just making a faith claim of his own; and

4. Accept that the same Jesus was also dead for a bit and then alive again before he turned up cold calling at someone’s door to invite himself to dinner, even though Vlad has already told us that “there is probably no physical evidence of the resurrection available”.

And on these desperately flimsy grounds is built the entire tottering edifice of Vlad’s belief in a resurrection it seems.

Ah well.   

Claims aren't evidence  :)

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #45849 on: April 19, 2023, 07:46:17 PM »
Maeght,

Quote
Claims aren't evidence  :)

Aw, look at you spotting the flaw in Vlad's attempt at a justification for his belief that there was an actual resurrection. Do you not realise how much he really, really wants it to be true though?

You meanie you!
"Don't make me come down there."

God