Searching for GOD...

[Walt Zingmatilder]

It's a good background to learn certain useful qualities such as hard work, aspiration, sacrifice. I don't know if being solidly middle class, once you leave your family and emigrate to a new country with little money, gives you much of an advantage other than educated parents and the prior experience in interacting with other middle class people . As far as I can tell a middle class background in Sunak's grandmother's case meant she most went to school in rural Tanzania until she was 16, when she got married to a railway engineer and was given some jewellery. Having the grit to sell her jewellery and take a risk and emigrate to the UK by herself with very little money and get a job as a bookkeeper in Leicester and progress and send for her husband and children may have been nature rather than nurture. 

Sunak's parents got professional qualifications and worked in a profession and started their own business. It doesn't mean they didn't have to work really long hours to feed their family and put a roof over their heads and give their children a good education. Nor does it mean they didn't sacrifice in order to pay for a private school education. All of these achievements involve hard work. Their advantage was that they had the vision to see that sacrifice and prioritising and hard work would lead to a better future and are good qualities to inculcate in your children. I don't see anything wrong with an MP highlighting that this is the background he comes from - a background of aspiration, hard work, education, sacrifice.

Seems to be a minority shareholder in Koru - 20,000 shares but yes Sunak should have mentioned it to the Parliamentary Committee  when asked about his interests in childcare, rather than just relying on having written to the Cabinet Office to declare it. It doesn't take anything away from the hard work and achievements of his parents though.

The amounts lost and wasted when Sunak was Chancellor are eyewatering.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Good question - actually they aren't. There is a big hoary old myth that faith schools are super-popular, when there doesn't seem to be any credible evidence to back this up.

As I am a school Trustee I get easy access to all the application stats in my local area. Actually anyone can get them if they spend a bit of time digging around on the County Council website, but I get them direct. Each year, for a number of years, I've kept a running tally, not least because the school where I'm a trustees has, for a number of years been the most oversubscribed in the District (actually I think in the County). It is a non selective, comprehensive, mixed, non-faith school without any weird 'attributes' admissions criteria, just good old fashioned distance.

For secondary schools (that's my school) there are nine in the area - six non-faith and three faith. When you rank them by oversubscription (in other words number of applications/number of places), they divide perfectly. The top six most oversubscribed are all the non-faith schools, the bottom three are the faith schools. In fact for in the most recent year non-faith schools averaged over 4 applications per place, compared to just 2.5 for the faith schools, so not a small difference.

And the distinction is just as stark at primary level - of the 23 primary schools in the District the top 13 for oversubscription are all non-faith and of the five faith schools, four are in the bottom six.

This was not the position a few years ago though when a common trend people would attend church for the school place. Are you describing a common trend?

[ProfessorDavey]

It doesn't take anything away from the hard work and achievements of his parents though.

Lots of people work incredibly hard, make massive sacrifices for the benefit of their kids. But in many cases what that means is that it isn't a case of how much month is left after the money ends, but that the money just about stretches to the end of the month.

So please spare me the sob stories about a highly privileged family living in a large house who because they spent tens of thousands every year on school fees could only afford to go abroad on holiday because they had chums that lent them their place in Spain. For many people working just as hard it isn't a case of nice house vs school fees vs foreign holidays - none are affordable regardless of how hard they work.

But of course if you from a family that is multigenerational privileged - educated, middle class professionals (I think at least four generations back from Rishi) then all that advantage flows very freely generation to generation. Just look at good old Rishi in that interview with school kids from a deprived background 'you can all be like me if you work hard' to paraphrase. No they can't Rishi - they can't because they weren't provided with that advantage inherited down several generations which meant that before he was even considering it he had been carefully placed into the establishment system.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

The amounts lost and wasted when Sunak was Chancellor are eyewatering.

Agreed. The amounts lost and wasted in general over successive governments are eye-watering - there seems to be a problem with all governments in relation to inefficiency, waste, a lack of accountability etc. Probably a thread on this on this forum already.

[Outrider]

I'm trying to work out what the problem you keep talking about is since there is no exclusion of children at C of E primary schools as there is in fee paying schools.

Notwithstanding the fact that state education retains, through faith schools, the right to discriminate in employment, purely with regards to the education of children the problem remains one of state-sponsored indoctrination. Even if you don't think it's intrinsically problematic, the fact that it only indoctrinates into one religious tradition is problematic given the religious make-up of the nation.

You may have a case for church secondary schools but there is other selection at that level in parts of the UK.

And it typically serves to exclude the poorer, and the less white, regardless of what the official criteria are, just as it does with Grammar schools, the other form of selectivity.

Formal indoctrination? How are you discriminating indoctrination from learning here there is no compulsory test of 'broad Christianisation' at the end of it or assessment and religion does not have nearly the same effort and importance attached to it as literacy and numeracy.

By working in education and seeing how faith schools talk about religion and religious outlooks; how it's put to small children as the talk that happens around the classroom as well as within it, how the 'fact' of God and Jesus are just a given, and how that therefore informs the content of lessons. Art isn't drawing animals, it's drawing 'God's creatures', science isn't exploring how the world works it's learning about 'God's wonder', how poor behaviour isn't breaching the social contract with the school and the other students, but rather an affront to Jesus who is watching...

Against all of this Humanist UK and NSS efforts at influencing education look like active campaigns to promote religious ignorance and illiteracy...

Because of the way they keep stressing that we need religious education and not religious indoctrination, you mean?

...and yes I said those as if they were bad things.

And they are, people need to know about religion, and religious ideas. As Sun Tzu put it, 'If you know yourself and you know your enemy you need not fear the result of one hundred battles'.

O.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Agreed. The amounts lost and wasted in general over successive governments are eye-watering - there seems to be a problem with all governments in relation to inefficiency, waste, a lack of accountability etc. Probably a thread on this on this forum already.

No I'm talking specifically about the money Sunak lost over Covid because of the favouring of Donors and crony's in contracts and his refusal to retrieve said moneys. ''Everybody else'' being bad at economics is egregious whataboutery.

[ProfessorDavey]

This was not the position a few years ago though when a common trend people would attend church for the school place. Are you describing a common trend?

I don't think it has been the case in a general sense for a long while.

The problem with the stories in the media about people pretending to be religious to get into a faith school is that they are death by anecdote and also largely used to promulgate an editorial line - pro-faith school.

You can trade anecdotes about individual schools till the cows come home. The school where I'm a trustee is the most oversubscribed in the area and I'm well aware of the steps people take (usually within the rules, occasionally outside them) to try to secure a place. But that really only tells you about my school, not nono-faith schools generally.

If you want to know about the totality, not just the cherry picked anecdote, you need to do what I have done - look at the actual evidence in the form of numbers of applications per place for faith schools overall, and non-faith schools overall. It isn't easy to actually get these data countrywide, but where you can get data they all point to it being non-faith schools that are the ones that parents are keenest (as a category) to get their kids into.

So I've shared my data - there was also reports from London about oversubscribed schools, which had to have separate tables for faith and non faith schools, as no faith schools came close to being near the top in terms of oversubscription.

And of course it makes perfect sense - in a country where perhaps 10% have any meaningful involvement with organised religion, why would you expect that population to support nigh on 30% of school places within faith schools run by those very religious organisations.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Lots of people work incredibly hard, make massive sacrifices for the benefit of their kids. But in many cases what that means is that it isn't a case of how much month is left after the money ends, but that the money just about stretches to the end of the month.

So please spare me the sob stories about a highly privileged family living in a large house who because they spent tens of thousands every year on school fees could only afford to go abroad on holiday because they had chums that lent them their place in Spain. For many people working just as hard it isn't a case of nice house vs school fees vs foreign holidays - none are affordable regardless of how hard they work.

It didn't sound like a sob story to me - it sounded like something people should aspire to do - start with hardly any money in Leicester in a job like a bookkeeper after immigrating by yourself from rural Tanzania after leaving school and getting married at age 16,  and work your way up in an office job in order to be able to feed, clothe and put a roof over your family's head and your children may have the start to make something of themselves by studying hard, qualifying and by buying a house in a time when property was affordable to buy. If those house-owning children in a 2 income professional family leverage off the increase in the equity of their house, and start their own business and work really long hours and sacrifice, then the income may afford their children further opportunities such as an expensive private school where useful connections can be made and good exam results achieved.

But of course if you from a family that is multigenerational privileged - educated, middle class professionals (I think at least four generations back from Rishi) then all that advantage flows very freely generation to generation.

Yes the privilege of a good education does flow from generation to generation. Look at Rishi's grandmother - she managed to stay in school until at least age 16 until she got married. She may have even stayed in school after she got married - I have no idea. But if she hadn't had the privilege of being in school until at least age 16, I doubt she could have been able to pick up bookkeeping.

Just look at good old Rishi in that interview with school kids from a deprived background 'you can all be like me if you work hard' to paraphrase. No they can't Rishi - they can't because they weren't provided with that advantage inherited down several generations which meant that before he was even considering it he had been carefully placed into the establishment system.

Yes if they don't have the privilege of coming from a background, no matter how financially poor, where educational aspirations are valued and encouraged, they will probably have a much harder time of succeeding.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I don't think it has been the case in a general sense for a long while.

The problem with the stories in the media about people pretending to be religious to get into a faith school is that they are death by anecdote and also largely used to promulgate an editorial line - pro-faith school.

Well we just seem to have your word on that and statistics for one area so I shall suspend judgment on that. The picture is confused given the plethora of types of schools and the regulations surrounding them and league tables and the effect of Ofsted etc.

You can trade anecdotes about individual schools till the cows come home.

I would have to be trading with someone Davey and right now that seems to be you[/quote] The school where I'm a trustee is the most oversubscribed in the area[/quote]They must have heard you were a trustee

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

No I'm talking specifically about the money Sunak lost over Covid because of the favouring of Donors and crony's in contracts and his refusal to retrieve said moneys. ''Everybody else'' being bad at economics is egregious whataboutery.

Yes agreed - he should retrieve it if it doesn't cost more to retrieve than the actual amount he would be retrieving. Given the inefficiency of the civil service I won't hold my breath that they could retrieve anything while working from home. I have been dealing with the inefficiencies of HMRC - they are clueless.

Was there a report mentioning Sunak specifically as favouring donors and cronies or are you referring to this about the government as a whole?  https://www.nao.org.uk/reports/government-procurement-during-the-covid-19-pandemic/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/nov/15/chumocracy-covid-revealed-shape-tory-establishment

Anyway - shall we get back to Searching for God and discuss these matters on another thread?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

It didn't sound like a sob story to me - it sounded like something people should aspire to do - start with hardly any money in Leicester in a job like a bookkeeper after immigrating by yourself from rural Tanzania after leaving school and getting married at age 16,  and work your way up in an office job in order to be able to feed, clothe and put a roof over your family's head and your children may have the start to make something of themselves by studying hard, qualifying and by buying a house in a time when property was affordable to buy. If those house-owning children in a 2 income professional family leverage off the increase in the equity of their house, and start their own business and work really long hours and sacrifice, then the income may afford their children further opportunities such as an expensive private school where useful connections can be made and good exam results achieved.
Yes the privilege of a good education does flow from generation to generation. Look at Rishi's grandmother - she managed to stay in school until at least age 16 until she got married. She may have even stayed in school after she got married - I have no idea. But if she hadn't had the privilege of being in school until at least age 16, I doubt she could have been able to pick up bookkeeping. Yes if they don't have the privilege of coming from a background, no matter how financially poor, where educational aspirations are valued and encouraged, they will probably have a much harder time of succeeding.

Other prime ministers who are self made or who have come from privileged backgrounds have been able to lift the fortunes of their country generally without believing in Kismet or reincarnation or any other excuse for a national cardre of unfortunates rather than lift the fortunes of those like themselves.

[ProfessorDavey]

It didn't sound like a sob story to me - it sounded like something people should aspire to do - start with hardly any money in Leicester in a job like a bookkeeper after immigrating by yourself from rural Tanzania after leaving school and getting married at age 16,  and work your way up in an office job in order to be able to feed, clothe and put a roof over your family's head and your children may have the start to make something of themselves by studying hard, qualifying and by buying a house in a time when property was affordable to buy. If those house-owning children in a 2 income professional family leverage off the increase in the equity of their house, and start their own business and work really long hours and sacrifice, then the income may afford their children further opportunities such as an expensive private school where useful connections can be made and good exam results achieved.
Yes the privilege of a good education does flow from generation to generation. Look at Rishi's grandmother - she managed to stay in school until at least age 16 until she got married. She may have even stayed in school after she got married - I have no idea. But if she hadn't had the privilege of being in school until at least age 16, I doubt she could have been able to pick up bookkeeping. Yes if they don't have the privilege of coming from a background, no matter how financially poor, where educational aspirations are valued and encouraged, they will probably have a much harder time of succeeding.

Oh dear you are buying into the myth again. Rishi loves to focus on his rural born book-keeping grandmother, rather than the rest of his family in the generations above, who tended to be doctors, engineering, high level civil servants etc. In most cases his relatives were all educated to university level, when a very small proportion were, and in several cases were sent all over the world to benefit from the best (and of course rather expensive) education.

Now I'm not saying this is wrong - I have no issue with families trying their best to do their best for their offspring. But this is portrayed as a rags to riches (or Rishi's) story) when actually it is a riches to incredible riches story. But of course once you have advantage (financial, educational, professional, network) embedded in your family you can use it, just as Rishi's forebears did. Most people, however, don't.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Yes agreed - he should retrieve it if it doesn't cost more to retrieve than the actual amount he would be retrieving. Given the inefficiency of the civil service I won't hold my breath that they could retrieve anything while working from home. I have been dealing with the inefficiencies of HMRC - they are clueless.

Was there a report mentioning Sunak specifically as favouring donors and cronies or are you referring to this about the government as a whole?  https://www.nao.org.uk/reports/government-procurement-during-the-covid-19-pandemic/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/nov/15/chumocracy-covid-revealed-shape-tory-establishment

Anyway - shall we get back to Searching for God and discuss these matters on another thread?

Any such reports are under the aegis of the prime minister who is..........?

[Nearly Sane]

Other prime ministers who are self made or who have come from privileged backgrounds have been able to lift the fortunes of their country generally without believing in Kismet or reincarnation or any other excuse for a national cardre of unfortunates rather than lift the fortunes of those like themselves.

or resurrection

[ProfessorDavey]

Well we just seem to have your word on that and statistics for one area so I shall suspend judgment on that. The picture is confused given the plethora of types of schools and the regulations surrounding them and league tables and the effect of Ofsted etc.I would have to be trading with someone Davey and right now that seems to be you The school where I'm a trustee is the most oversubscribed in the areaThey must have heard you were a trustee

I've done some rather rule of thumb stuff in a variety of places.

Find a faith school in an area - then match it to a non-faith school in the same area where the two schools are pretty matched academically - e.g. Ofsted, so-called Attainment8 and Progress8 scores and you can bet your bottom dollar the non-faith school will have about 50% more application per place compared to the faith school.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Other prime ministers who are self made or who have come from privileged backgrounds have been able to lift the fortunes of their country generally without believing in Kismet or reincarnation or any other excuse for a national cardre of unfortunates rather than lift the fortunes of those like themselves.

Can you link to a quote from Sunak on this so I can understand what you are trying to say? Preferably on a new thread.

[ProfessorDavey]

They must have heard you were a trustee

Of course - why wouldn't you want to go to a school where I'm vice chair of trustees and in charge of resources

Actually it is just a really good school with no weird stuff. So mixed, non-faith, serves its local community, non-selective, no jumping through hoops to prove your kid has a musical 'aptitude' or provide legal advice for the church (and a range of other 'proxies' for selecting nice middle class families). I think by and large that is the kind of school most people want their kids to go to.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Oh dear you are buying into the myth again.

What myth? Are you saying Sunak's grandmother didn't come to the UK by herself by selling her jewellery and she didn't get a job as a book keeper and save to bring her husband and children over?

Rishi loves to focus on his rural born book-keeping grandmother,

It's a good aspirational story

rather than the rest of his family in the generations above, who tended to be doctors, engineering, high level civil servants etc. In most cases his relatives were all educated to university level, when a very small proportion were, and in several cases were sent all over the world to benefit from the best (and of course rather expensive) education.

Does Sunak come from a large family and did most of his relatives in the generations above go to university? What proportion are you referring to as you're being very vague, and probably, inaccurate given my impression of your track-record unless you are linking to actual stats or research. The privilege of emphasis on education may well have been strong in their family. What are you specifically referring to when you say "sent all over the world to benefit from the best education"? Who went where?

Now I'm not saying this is wrong - I have no issue with families trying their best to do their best for their offspring. But this is portrayed as a rags to riches (or Rishi's) story) when actually it is a riches to incredible riches story. But of course once you have advantage (financial, educational, professional, network) embedded in your family you can use it, just as Rishi's forebears did. Most people, however, don't.

Either Sunak's grandmother started life on her own as bookkeeper in Leicester or she didn't. If you have any information on where Sunak's other relatives gave her a helping hand in Leicester, let's have it.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Any such reports are under the aegis of the prime minister who is..........?

So nothing mentioning Sunak specifically as giving out contracts to his cronies. More of a collective responsibility/ buck stops at the top type thing?

[ekim]

Ah yes - thank you and now amended. Us experts are liable to make mistakes sometime, don't you know..hmmph

It's nice to see you are less violent but don't get too carried away with your orders of merit otherwise your mistakes might become amplified e.g. William Thomson, 1st Baron Kelvin, OM, GCVO, PC, FRS, FRSE,  mathematician, mathematical physicist and engineer, Professor of Natural Philosophy at the University of Glasgow for 53 years, and who did important work in the mathematical analysis of electricity and formulation of the first and second laws of thermodynamics  .....  said   -"X-rays will prove to be a hoax" - "Radio has no future".  on Marconi's experiments. - "I trust you will avoid the gigantic mistake of alternating current".-  writing to Niagara Falls Power Company.

[ProfessorDavey]

Either Sunak's grandmother started life on her own as bookkeeper in Leicester or she didn't. If you have any information on where Sunak's other relatives gave her a helping hand in Leicester, let's have it.

Either Sunak's grandmother had a reasonable amount of money to support her move to the UK, or she was incredibly stupid (I believe it is the former).

Why - because apparently she arrived by plane at a time when air travel was way more expensive than travelling by sea (although the latter took longer). Unlike the later Ugandan migrants (where there isn't an obvious sea route), she came from Dar Es Salaam. And guess what, though until the late 60s there was a regular service on the Union Castle line to the UK - would have been way cheaper than an airfare, but would take a little longer. I'd have thought if you genuinely had no money, you'd be prepared to take a few days longer to get to the UK rather than waste money on an expensive airfare.

But then I imagine you could afford to travel by air when your husband was in what was likely a pretty well paid job as a tax official which he'd keep until she was set up enough to allow the rest of the family to relocate and her husband had finalised his transfer into a role in the inland revenue in the UK.

My Dad used to ply those routes as he was in the merchant navy into the 60s - and if you couldn't afford the Union Castle line there were cheaper options still - basically all merchant vessels in those days had a set number of berths for 'passengers' - sometimes this was used to ferry around company officials when needed, but they were also available to fare-paying passengers. Cheap as chips, but with one downside - you'd get to your destination, but the actual timing might be a bit hit and miss. But, hey, why would that worry you if you are trying to strike out into a new life and if you had next to no money!

[ProfessorDavey]

Does Sunak come from a large family and did most of his relatives in the generations above go to university? What proportion are you referring to as you're being very vague, and probably, inaccurate given my impression of your track-record unless you are linking to actual stats or research.

Sunak's biography gives a fair amount of detail.

So for example on Sunak's father's side, the family is described as upper middle class and educated all the way back to Sunak's great-grandfather who worked as 'Postmaster' - which was a very senior role within the colonial structure - indeed one of the highest that someone not from a white british background could aspire to.

I believe his paternal grandfather was a career civil service, first in India and continuing when they relocated to Kenya. Sunak's father is one of six who are all described at going to university - and none locally (they were in Kenya) - I gather the girls studies in India while the boys were sent to universities in the UK to take highly profession disciplines - medicine and engineering.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Either Sunak's grandmother had a reasonable amount of money to support her move to the UK, or she was incredibly stupid (I believe it is the former).

Why - because apparently she arrived by plane at a time when air travel was way more expensive than travelling by sea (although the latter took longer). Unlike the later Ugandan migrants (where there isn't an obvious sea route), she came from Dar Es Salaam. And guess what, though until the late 60s there was a regular service on the Union Castle line to the UK - would have been way cheaper than an airfare, but would take a little longer. I'd have thought if you genuinely had no money, you'd be prepared to take a few days longer to get to the UK rather than waste money on an expensive airfare.

But then I imagine you could afford to travel by air when your husband was in what was likely a pretty well paid job as a tax official which he'd keep until she was set up enough to allow the rest of the family to relocate and her husband had finalised his transfer into a role in the inland revenue in the UK.

My Dad used to ply those routes as he was in the merchant navy into the 60s - and if you couldn't afford the Union Castle line there were cheaper options still - basically all merchant vessels in those days had a set number of berths for 'passengers' - sometimes this was used to ferry around company officials when needed, but they were also available to fare-paying passengers. Cheap as chips, but with one downside - you'd get to your destination, but the actual timing might be a bit hit and miss. But, hey, why would that worry you if you are trying to strike out into a new life and if you had next to no money!

Where is the claim that she had no money? Sunak said she sold her wedding jewellery to get the air fare. So your imaginings aside you actually have no evidence to support your assessment of the wealth of Sunak's grandmother at the time she came over. What happened to all the privileged generations of wealthy relatives who helped her while she was a bookkeeper - where is your evidence for that?

By the way, it's not stupidity to come to the UK with barely any money - you just need a bit of self-belief and the prospect of a job. My "mother's Muslim convert friend's" dad came to the UK in 1971 with no money to do his Msc in Civil Engineering - his British Council funding fell through due to a government policy change. He borrowed £60 from a cousin, who took out a bank loan to lend it to him, with no idea how he would repay the bank loan as he had a job as a security guard. The Muslim convert's dad sent for her mother to come from Sri Lanka to financially support him so he could have a roof over his head and food to eat and clothes to wear. She was a doctor and got her job in the NHS at Birmingham hospital via a phone interview from Sri Lanka.

Married hospital staff accommodation sorted out the roof over their heads and her salary sorted out the expenses of living and studying in the UK. She left behind a 2 year old son and a 6 month old daughter in Sri Lanka to support her husband until the children came to the UK to join their parents a little over a year later, once the parents had found a small house to rent in East London. Then they started saving and managed to buy a house with a mortgage in North West London. Rising property prices meant they had equity in the house. They took a risk and sold and bought a much bigger detached house with a bigger mortgage. Just need to be a little aspirational, be prepared to take risks, and be prepared to sacrifice and have the privilege of an education and a lot of luck to get ahead.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Sunak's biography gives a fair amount of detail.

So for example on Sunak's father's side, the family is described as upper middle class and educated all the way back to Sunak's great-grandfather who worked as 'Postmaster' - which was a very senior role within the colonial structure - indeed one of the highest that someone not from a white british background could aspire to.

I believe his paternal grandfather was a career civil service, first in India and continuing when they relocated to Kenya. Sunak's father is one of six who are all described at going to university - and none locally (they were in Kenya) - I gather the girls studies in India while the boys were sent to universities in the UK to take highly profession disciplines - medicine and engineering.

Yeah and my "mother's Muslim convert friend's" dad also had a dad high up in the civil service. When he retired all the perks stopped and his son went from going to one of the top fee-paying prep schools in the country to relocating to a village in the remote, rural North of Sri Lanka, where he got up at 5am to help with work in the paddy field before going to the local free village school. It was a good school - a faith school founded by Christian missionaries. So he managed to get a scholarship from Israel to do his Bsc in Civil Engineering  in Israel. He still came to the UK with no money but with the privilege of education and an aspiration to do well.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

So nothing mentioning Sunak specifically as giving out contracts to his cronies. More of a collective responsibility/ buck stops at the top type thing?

He was the Chancellor who took credit for things and is responsible for things He was Chancellor when a large amount of money was handed to Dido Harding. The crony thing he must have been the man with all the money when it went to  favoured operators.  Isn't he the second prime minister to have been found criminal concerning Covid regulations? Are you saying that Sunak was merely the ''Bellboy in an elicit brothel?''...although he does come across like that.