Searching for GOD...

[ProfessorDavey]

Where is the claim that she had no money? Sunak said she sold her wedding jewellery to get the air fare. So your imaginings aside you actually have no evidence to support your assessment of the wealth of Sunak's grandmother at the time she came over.

Why the continual focus on Sunak's grandmother alone - she was married to his grandfather who retained a position as a tax official in Tanzania, presumably reasonably well paid certainly by local standards. Don't forget that one of the key issues that 'drove out' those from an Indian background from east Africa was a view that they had all the top job within the civil service, as the British had placed them there as they were perceived as better than the locals.

So she had her job in the UK, he retained his job and wage in Tanzania while he arranged a transfer to the civil service in the UK. Again this was a well established process in post independence countries - people who have previously worked for the British civil service in colonial countries were able to transfer to broadly equivalent roles in the UK. And at that point the rest of the family could comfortably relocate to join the 'advance party' that was Sunak's grandmother.

All very sensible and carefully planned I'd imagine - but then I wouldn't expect anything less given that the family background was not just pretty middle class and educated, but also had previously made similar managed moved from India to east Africa.

[ProfessorDavey]

Yeah and my "mother's Muslim convert friend's" dad also had a dad high up in the civil service. When he retired all the perks stopped and his son went from going to one of the top fee-paying prep schools in the country to relocating to a village in the remote, rural North of Sri Lanka, where he got up at 5am to help with work in the paddy field before going to the local free village school. It was a good school - a faith school founded by Christian missionaries. So he managed to get a scholarship from Israel to do his Bsc in Civil Engineering  in Israel. He still came to the UK with no money but with the privilege of education and an aspiration to do well.

Real people or made up people VG/Accountant - getting kind of hard to tell with you these days.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

He was the Chancellor who took credit for things and is responsible for things He was Chancellor when a large amount of money was handed to Dido Harding. The crony thing he must have been the man with all the money when it went to  favoured operators.  Isn't he the second prime minister to have been found criminal concerning Covid regulations? Are you saying that Sunak was merely the ''Bellboy in an elicit brothel?''...although he does come across like that.

It looks suspect and no doubt he was either directly involved,  incompetent, looked the other way or was biding his time to make his political move once he had established himself and gained some power and influence. Either way it doesn't look good. I was hoping for a link to a report that named him and what he did. I haven't read all the reports on the matter so was looking for information rather than speculation.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Why the continual focus on Sunak's grandmother alone - she was married to his grandfather who retained a position as a tax official in Tanzania, presumably reasonably well paid certainly by local standards. Don't forget that one of the key issues that 'drove out' those from an Indian background from east Africa was a view that they had all the top job within the civil service, as the British had placed them there as they were perceived as better than the locals.

So she had her job in the UK,

Which she got by selling her wedding jewellery

he retained his job and wage in Tanzania while he arranged a transfer to the civil service in the UK.

So he didn't have the money to buy her a plane ticket - she had to sell her jewellery. So not that rich then.

Again this was a well established process in post independence countries - people who have previously worked for the British civil service in colonial countries were able to transfer to broadly equivalent roles in the UK. And at that point the rest of the family could comfortably relocate to join the 'advance party' that was Sunak's grandmother.

Comfortably relocate? Do you have any evidence of their level of comfort when they relocated once Sunak's grandmother had secured a job as a bookkeeper? Did she retire as soon as her husband arrived or did she have to carry on working for them to be able to afford to live in the UK, save money, and buy a house?

All very sensible and carefully planned I'd imagine - but then I wouldn't expect anything less given that the family background was not just pretty middle class and educated, but also had previously made similar managed moved from India to east Africa.

Sensible and carefully planned does not equal wealthy or cash rich.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Real people or made up people VG/Accountant - getting kind of hard to tell with you these days.

Now you're starting to get the picture of how little weight your claims of expertise etc have. Well done for grasping the point. I guess that means the arguments stand or fail on their own merits together with any links to actual demonstrable evidence. In the absence of links to demonstrable evidence, you have your opinions and I have mine.

[ProfessorDavey]

Which she got by selling her wedding jewellery

And presumably from the money she and he already had from their existing jobs and families. If they really had so little money at that point, why didn't she hop on the cheap as chips cargo ships, or the cheap (but not quite as chips) Union Castle line, rather than take the plane which would have been far more expensive.

So he didn't have the money to buy her a plane ticket - she had to sell her jewellery.

But had enough to decide to take by far the most expensive option to get from the port city of Dar Es Salaam to the UK. Up to her, of course and I guess she had her reasons. But if she had sufficient to chose to take a more expensive option (in today's money, thousands) to get to the UK, it doesn't really tally with the editorial slant of the story, does it really.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

So if we were discussing research about the prevalence of crime in Africa you might well posit the following.

This Prof https://www.law.ed.ac.uk/people/professor-alexander-mccall-smith on the other hand seems to have published a book on it so I can verify his credentials and also if I find the time, read the book https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B002TXZRRM?ref_=dbs_m_mng_rwt_calw_tkin_0&storeType=ebooks

He writes fictional novels based on this link. Not a good comparison to Professor McFadden's book.

There is a reason why both John Joe McFadden and Alexander McCall-Smith separate their academic research activities and outputs from any pop science or fiction writing. As an academic it is pretty obvious to me but perhaps may not be to you - effectively they are doing so so as not to imply that the pop science or fiction writing is somehow scholarly academic output.

You will, no doubt have noticed that the book you refer to isn't mentioned on McFadden's research page, nor listed in his research publications, nor indeed is Occam even mentioned within the context of his research. Do you understand why VG?

He probably didn't apply for any funding to research Occam's Razor as it applied in science. Are any of your posts on here included in your research papers. If not, we can presumably dismiss them as expert opinion, since your posts on here have not been peer-reviewed? Or have you collated them and submitted them for review and will they be published as your research?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

And presumably from the money she and he already had from their existing jobs and families. If they really had so little money at that point, why didn't she hop on the cheap as chips cargo ships, or the cheap (but not quite as chips) Union Castle line, rather than take the plane which would have been far more expensive.
But had enough to decide to take by far the most expensive option to get from the port city of Dar Es Salaam to the UK. Up to her, of course and I guess she had her reasons. But if she had sufficient to chose to take a more expensive option (in today's money, thousands) to get to the UK, it doesn't really tally with the editorial slant of the story, does it really.

So just more speculation then? You have your opinions and I have mine. Who knows - maybe plane travel was safer for a woman travelling alone who had the responsibility of small children she was leaving behind and and coming from an Asian background, a husband letting his wife take a boat alone would probably have been frowned upon. 

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Real people or made up people VG/Accountant - getting kind of hard to tell with you these days.

Oh forgot some more of the story I overheard from my mother's Muslim convert friend about her background. Apparently her mother left Sri Lanka when she was a small child and grew up in Kerela, India, because her father (the Muslim convert's grandfather) was very high up in the British colonial business interests - he was an inspector (can't remember if it was tea or some other resource the British empire was stripping from India) and so they lived in one of those British Raj style houses with a ballroom and pillars while he had the job. Only problem was he was great at communicating and networking but not so great with the details of handling money so he would fall for every hard luck story and lend people money left, right and centre and never got repaid. So he ended up pretty broke though managed to pay for his daughter to go to medical school and his son went to boarding school in India - I think that was him who paid for it.

Anyway, he was left with no money to pay for a dowry to get his daughter married. She apparently said "screw 'em, anyone who wants a dowry when I'm an educated doctor with earning potential can shove it where the sun doesn't shine"....or words to that effect. And then the engineer married the doctor after he finished his Bsc in Engineering in Israel  (no dowry changed hands) and they both came to the UK with no money, borrowed £60, and they all lived happily ever after in Birmingham hospital and then later in East London in a rented house with their 2 small children who ended up going to private schools.

But from the outside it probably sounds like a middle-class life of wealth and privilege to the uninformed.

[ProfessorDavey]

So he ended up pretty broke though managed to pay for his daughter to go to medical school and his son went to boarding school in India - I think that was him who paid for it.

Struggling to know these days whether the stories you provide are true or not.

But there is an astonishing lack of perspective if you think that being 'pretty broke' is consistent with still being able to afford to fund a daughter through medical school (the most expensive higher education course) and also a son through boarding school.

If that is your idea of 'broke' then I suggest you give your head a wobble.

[ProfessorDavey]

So just more speculation then? You have your opinions and I have mine. Who knows - maybe plane travel was safer for a woman travelling alone who had the responsibility of small children she was leaving behind and and coming from an Asian background, a husband letting his wife take a boat alone would probably have been frowned upon.

Nope I think it is you who is speculating as to why the family chose to buy a plane ticket for her to travel to the UK rather than the much cheaper options by sea.

Realistically, speculating about reasons isn't the point. The point is that they had that choice - they had the money to make that choice, in other words to choose a significantly more expensive option than others available that would achieve the same thing (get to the UK).

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Struggling to know these days whether the stories you provide are true or not.

Hmm - funny how difficult it is to verify claims people make on the internet isn't it? Bit like your claims to be an expert.

But there is an astonishing lack of perspective if you think that being 'pretty broke' is consistent with still being able to afford to fund a daughter through medical school (the most expensive higher education course) and also a son through boarding school.

If that is your idea of 'broke' then I suggest you give your head a wobble.

I said he was pretty broke when he returned to Sri Lanka from India - during his job in India he didn't save any money but could pay for education. And I have no idea how he paid for it - maybe he borrowed the money. My point has always been that the privilege of a good education does not mean your family was financially wealthy or lived a privileged life or had money to give children who emigrated abroad to the UK.

Maybe in the 1970s in the UK some immigrants just ignored the racism they faced, worked longer hours, cut costs, only bought necessities, didn't buy themselves or their children much in the way of material things, didn't go out to socialise, used the help of extended families and live-in grandparents to take care of young children to minimise childcare costs and focus on education in Primary state schools so their children had a good grounding in numeracy and literacy and excelled from a young age. That's not privilege, that's just basic common sense and family values. Any average person could do that in the UK in the 1970s - it's not like the British people were all working in the coal mines or as serfs working the land with barely 2 pennies to rub together.

Just to check - are you claiming expertise on the cost of medical school or boarding school in India in the early 1960s?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Nope I think it is you who is speculating as to why the family chose to buy a plane ticket for her to travel to the UK rather than the much cheaper options by sea.

Clearly we're both speculating - or have you had a peer reviewed paper published on Sunak's grandmother that you can link to and are claiming expertise?

Realistically, speculating about reasons isn't the point. The point is that they had that choice - they had the money to make that choice, in other words to choose a significantly more expensive option than others available that would achieve the same thing (get to the UK).

Having funds to buy a plane ticket to the UK by selling your wedding jewellery doesn't sound like a privileged life to me. Are you suggesting that most people in the UK in the 1960s were so poor they wouldn't have been able to sell something and/ or borrow money to fund a one -way plane ticket to another country for a family member to get a job in the hopes of a better life? I didn't realise the population of the UK was so poverty stricken in the 1960s - do you have any links to back that up?

[ekim]

So, 'Searching for God', how is everybody doing with this?

[ProfessorDavey]

Clearly we're both speculating

Nope - you are speculating as to why they chose to travel by air when other much cheaper options were available.

I'm not speculating at all - all I am doing is noting that they made choice to take a more expensive option to get to the UK when cheaper options were available. And therefore that to be able to make that choice they must have had the funds available to be able to buy an air ticket, rather than only be able to afford to travel by sea. No speculation whatsoever.

[ProfessorDavey]

I said he was pretty broke when he returned to Sri Lanka from India - during his job in India he didn't save any money but could pay for education.

You and I clearly have such different frames of reference I struggle to see how we can have a dialogue.

From my perspective if you can afford to fund a daughter through medical school and a son through boarding school you aren't broke, or pretty broke - not even close. You might be broke or pretty broke once you'd paid those medical school fees and boarding school fees, but that's an entirely different matter.

That you consider 'pretty broke' to be an appropriate term for someone who can still afford medical school fees and boarding school fees is pretty worrying to me.

[Nearly Sane]

So, 'Searching for God', how is everybody doing with this?

Moderator We had a discussion on this amongst the mod team yesterday. On any other thread, we would have split this but SfG is sui generis. We'll continue to monitor but are allowing for now.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Nope - you are speculating as to why they chose to travel by air when other much cheaper options were available.

I'm not speculating at all - all I am doing is noting that they made choice to take a more expensive option to get to the UK when cheaper options were available. And therefore that to be able to make that choice they must have had the funds available to be able to buy an air ticket, rather than only be able to afford to travel by sea. No speculation whatsoever.

Funny, I thought you were speculating about Sunak's grandmother's wealth and privilege.

Yes Sunak openly said his grandmother sold her wedding jewellery to get the funds for the plane ticket - which part of that are you saying is a myth?

[ekim]

Yes Sunak openly said his grandmother sold her wedding jewellery to get the funds for the plane ticket - which part of that are you saying is a myth?

....... or to use the other part of the discussion, Just because he is a high up politician, should we believe what he has said?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

You and I clearly have such different frames of reference I struggle to see how we can have a dialogue.

Not surprisingly since we have very different cultural backgrounds and lived experiences. Yes it is pretty hard to have dialogue with someone who isn't an immigrant but makes assumptions about the wealth and privilege of immigrant lives compared to the average British person in the UK in the 1960s or 1970s.

From my perspective if you can afford to fund a daughter through medical school and a son through boarding school you aren't broke, or pretty broke - not even close. You might be broke or pretty broke once you'd paid those medical school fees and boarding school fees, but that's an entirely different matter.

That you consider 'pretty broke' to be an appropriate term for someone who can still afford medical school fees and boarding school fees is pretty worrying to me.

Not surprising, you have been displaying your ignorance a fair bit on here when it comes to the perspectives of people from a different cultural background such as South Asian immigrants to the UK. As I wasn't an English person in the UK in the 1960s maybe I have the wrong idea about the UK and in comparison to the South Asian immigrants who came in by plane and looked for rooms to rent (difficult as racism meant some people refused to rent rooms to people from certain backgrounds) the majority of local Brits in the 1960s and 70s were living by candlelight in poverty and squalour  wearing rags with no food on the table. Please do give me your experiences and perspective of this poverty.

Which part of "he ended up pretty broke but he paid for medical school and boarding school in India" are you struggling to understand? Pretty broke seems a fair assessment of someone who didn't own any property, didn't have money for a dowry for his daughter to get married or to set his daughter and son-in-law up in a life of wealth and privilege in the UK or anywhere else. Do you have links for Sunak's grandmother's financial circumstances when she arrived in the UK? Did she have access to a trust fund while the rest of the UK lived hand to mouth?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

....... or to use the other part of the discussion, Just because he is a high up politician, should we believe what he has said?

I agree Ekim - we shouldn't just believe what he said. Maybe she was wealthy - but some evidence one way or the other would be useful.

[ProfessorDavey]

....... or to use the other part of the discussion, Just because he is a high up politician, should we believe what he has said?

It is interesting that he always focusses on his maternal grandmother - who seems to have had the least advantaged upbringing. Much less said about the senior civil servants, engineers, doctors within his family.

The narrative is clear - rags to riches. But the reality seems rather different - a multigenerational highly educated upper middle class professional family who value education and for various reasons have been double migrants (India to East Africa and East Africa to UK). But it would appear in both cases the move was managed with the safety net of knowing that their professional positions would see them right. Actually more than just hope as it would appear that there were specific schemes to move people within the civil service from country to country.

So as a family they have moved from professional upper middle class to super-rich uber-establishment. Now I'm not denigrating that - good on them - given my professional you'd expect me to be in favour of education and hard work paying off. The point is that it isn't the rags to riches story that the carefully curated portrayal from Sunak would like to give.

[ProfessorDavey]

I agree Ekim - we shouldn't just believe what he said. Maybe she was wealthy - but some evidence one way or the other would be useful.

Why do you keep focussing on her alone. At the time she was married, to someone who was in a solidly middle class professional role within the civil service. And remained in that position until he moved to an equivalent position in the UK civil service.

Now we know that VG has awarded herself a gong, and lots of senior people in the civil service gets gongs based on their level of seniority. Sunak's grandfather is one of those people, so we can safely conclude that he wasn't some kind of junior official, but would have been at least middle ranking when he moved to the UK.

[ProfessorDavey]

Not surprisingly since we have very different cultural backgrounds and lived experiences. Yes it is pretty hard to have dialogue with someone who isn't an immigrant but makes assumptions about the wealth and privilege of immigrant lives compared to the average British person in the UK in the 1960s or 1970s.

Irrelevant - we are talking about whether someone can reasonably be classified as broke or pretty broke, yet still have sufficient money to be able to afford medical school fees and boarding school fees. From my perspective if you can afford those fees you aren't broke, or pretty broke - not even close.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

It is interesting that he always focusses on his maternal grandmother - who seems to have had the least advantaged upbringing. Much less said about the senior civil servants, engineers, doctors within his family.

The narrative is clear - rags to riches. But the reality seems rather different - a multigenerational highly educated upper middle class professional family who value education and for various reasons have been double migrants (India to East Africa and East Africa to UK). But it would appear in both cases the move was managed with the safety net of knowing that their professional positions would see them right. Actually more than just hope as it would appear that there were specific schemes to move people within the civil service from country to country.

So as a family they have moved from professional upper middle class to super-rich uber-establishment. Now I'm not denigrating that - good on them - given my professional you'd expect me to be in favour of education and hard work paying off. The point is that it isn't the rags to riches story that the carefully curated portrayal from Sunak would like to give.

If you have evidence that the other side of Sunak's family - the doctors and engineers and civil servants set up a fund for Sunak's grandmother to use for her life in the UK, now would be the time to present it.

Otherwise, it would appear that Sunak's grandmother, who got married age 16, and the line that followed made it because she got a job as a bookkeeper, her husband was apparently in work when he came over and the civil service provides job security, they focused on education, and their daughter went to university and qualified as a professional and married another professional and they worked really long hours in their own business and sacrificed to pay for their own kids to go to private schools. Sounds like a good aspirational story for the British public that could easily apply to any of them - work hard at school, join the civil service in the 1960s or become a bookkeeper, keep working hard, progress in your job, save money, instill the value of education in your children so they get qualifications to get relatively well-paying jobs,, keep costs low, buy a house, benefit from the equity rise in houses, sell and buy another house etc etc