Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3890185 times)

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46250 on: April 28, 2023, 11:24:21 AM »
Just because he is a high up politician, should we believe what he has said?

Quite the opposite, I would have thought, especially if they are a Tory - who seem to have lying an integral part of their political strategy.
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ekim

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46251 on: April 28, 2023, 11:26:59 AM »

The point is that it isn't the rags to riches story that the carefully curated portrayal from Sunak would like to give.
Well, as God said 'Thou shalt not bear false witness'.  So, if true, he could be in for trouble.  >:(

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46252 on: April 28, 2023, 11:37:04 AM »
Irrelevant - we are talking about whether someone can reasonably be classified as broke or pretty broke, yet still have sufficient money to be able to afford medical school fees and boarding school fees. From my perspective if you can afford those fees you aren't broke, or pretty broke - not even close.
Sounds an arbitrary position to take. You don't know what the fees of medical school in Trivandrum in the early 1960s India were or boarding school in Madras or how any of this was paid for? I don't even know how it was paid for. Whether scholarships were involved or a loan or other 3rd party funding. Maybe you should stop making so many assumptions and jumping to conclusions from limited information as that sounds like a very unscientific way to operate  ;)

People can go broke paying school fees. Maybe you should speak to people who paid for their children's school fees in the UK in the 1960s. And what were the fees in the UK in the 1960s and in comparison to India, what proportion of a person's income would have been taken by school or university fees in the UK in the 1960s and did only people from wealthy privileged backgrounds go to medical school in the UK in the 1960s?

I find it difficult to take your opinion seriously when you don't show any evidence of having considered any of this in any detail.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46253 on: April 28, 2023, 11:51:00 AM »
And presumably from the money she and he already had from their existing jobs and families.
So you are speculating.
Quote
If they really had so little money at that point, why didn't she hop on the cheap as chips cargo ships, or the cheap (but not quite as chips) Union Castle line, rather than take the plane which would have been far more expensive.
When you find out the reasoning let me know and link to some evidence.
Quote
But had enough to decide to take by far the most expensive option to get from the port city of Dar Es Salaam to the UK. Up to her, of course and I guess she had her reasons. But if she had sufficient to chose to take a more expensive option (in today's money, thousands) to get to the UK, it doesn't really tally with the editorial slant of the story, does it really.
Selling wedding jewellery can get you sufficient funds to buy a plane ticket, yes. Maybe before jumping to conclusions you should do a little more research into what was affordable in the 1960s in comparison today's money. https://www.theguardian.com/money/blog/2016/dec/10/sixties-pay-people-earned-less-but-could-afford-more
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

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Udayana

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46254 on: April 28, 2023, 11:53:50 AM »
Well, as God said 'Thou shalt not bear false witness'.  So, if true, he could be in for trouble.  >:(

Yes! Bound to ... As a Hindu he should read Sriram's blog - watch out for the conservation of morality and mend his ways before he leads us all into ... shit! Too late ... and all because his family were so well off he could only become PM by spinning stories!

:(
 
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46255 on: April 28, 2023, 11:57:54 AM »
The narrative is clear - rags to riches. But the reality seems rather different - a multigenerational highly educated upper middle class professional family who value education and for various reasons have been double migrants (India to East Africa and East Africa to UK). But it would appear in both cases the move was managed with the safety net of knowing that their professional positions would see them right. Actually more than just hope as it would appear that there were specific schemes to move people within the civil service from country to country.

So as a family they have moved from professional upper middle class to super-rich uber-establishment. Now I'm not denigrating that - good on them - given my professional you'd expect me to be in favour of education and hard work paying off. The point is that it isn't the rags to riches story that the carefully curated portrayal from Sunak would like to give.
Which is the "rags" part of the narrative. I'm not seeing any rags. Can you be more specific?
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46256 on: April 28, 2023, 12:05:47 PM »
Well, as God said 'Thou shalt not bear false witness'.  So, if true, he could be in for trouble.  >:(
Yes - hopefully the British Press will sniff it out if the grandmother was being funded in the UK by various relatives from abroad.

I was under the impression that usually immigrants who came here and took jobs like bookkeeping sent money back to their families abroad, rather than the other way around. That's what my parents were doing (I've decided I'm no longer a 23 year old man ...it takes too long typing out "my mother's Muslim convert friend's parents") but don't take my word for it - there are plenty of accounts online from other immigrants.

But who knows, maybe Sunak's grandmother was the exception - when PD finds some actual evidence I'm sure he'll let us know.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2023, 12:12:22 PM by The Accountant, OBE, KC »
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Udayana

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46257 on: April 28, 2023, 01:36:02 PM »
Which is the "rags" part of the narrative. I'm not seeing any rags. Can you be more specific?

Despite the British teaching Indians to make and wear clothes they have only ever worn rags - insisting on sending vast quantities of cotton and silk to England as their contribution to the industrial revolution and making Britain great.
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46258 on: April 28, 2023, 02:12:27 PM »
Despite the British teaching Indians to make and wear clothes they have only ever worn rags - insisting on sending vast quantities of cotton and silk to England as their contribution to the industrial revolution and making Britain great.
Ah yes of course - now I am starting to see how a sari could in fact be thought of as a rag.

My mother used to wear such a rag everyday to the hospitals she worked in throughout my childhood, even in the winter. Apparently some of the white sahibs  ;) she treated thought it meant she had a poor grasp of English and wanted a proper doctor to treat them. Her English is better than mine, despite me getting an A in A'Level English - I used to write letters to her abroad while I was at uni and her replies would sometimes include corrections of my spelling in my letters to her and a comment on the dubious outcome of my British private school education ;D
« Last Edit: April 28, 2023, 02:42:50 PM by The Accountant, OBE, KC »
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

ekim

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46259 on: April 28, 2023, 02:56:19 PM »
Ah yes of course - now I am starting to see how a sari could in fact be thought of as a rag.

My mother used to wear such a rag everyday to the hospitals she worked in throughout my childhood, even in the winter. Apparently some of the white sahibs  ;) she treated thought it meant she had a poor grasp of English and wanted a proper doctor to treat them. Her English is better than mine, despite me getting an A in A'Level English - I used to write letters to her abroad while I was at uni and her replies would sometimes include corrections of my spelling in my letters to her and a comment on the dubious outcome of my British private school education ;D

Oh, and there was me thinking Sari had something to do with the song in the musical Oklahoma - 'When I take you out in the Sari with the fringe on top'.

By the way, it's 'Pukka sahib', if you don't mind.  Especially as you've given yourself an Order of the British Empire.  8)

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46260 on: April 28, 2023, 03:19:26 PM »
Oh, and there was me thinking Sari had something to do with the song in the musical Oklahoma - 'When I take you out in the Sari with the fringe on top'.

By the way, it's 'Pukka sahib', if you don't mind.  Especially as you've given yourself an Order of the British Empire.  8)

 ;D

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To be fair maybe PD was referring to the rags the British were all wearing in the 1960s because they were so poor while Sunak's upper middle class grandmother swanned around in her Rolls Royce tossing coins to the peasants outside  ;)
« Last Edit: April 28, 2023, 06:25:36 PM by The Accountant, OBE, KC »
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46261 on: April 29, 2023, 09:45:04 AM »
Maybe before jumping to conclusions you should do a little more research into what was affordable in the 1960s in comparison today's money. https://www.theguardian.com/money/blog/2016/dec/10/sixties-pay-people-earned-less-but-could-afford-more
Oh dear - you really don't do yourself any favour in the 'research' you link to do you.

So does this article tell is the relative affordability of flights in the 1960s compared to now - well no it doesn't but it does give us a little hint:

About the 60s: "But holidays were infrequent, mostly to relatives and friends, and never abroad."

About now: "That said, she’s just back from a weekend with friends in Budapest – but cheap Ryanair getaways are hardly a substitute for housing."

I wonder why very few people went abroad in the 1960s - do you think it was because accommodation in Greece was prohibitively expensive, or perhaps that beer and wine in Spain was eyewateringly expensive. Hmm, doesn't seem likely does it - almost as if there is something else that was really expensive back then - wonder what that could have been.

Well actually I did do some research on the topic when we discussed it some months ago but didn't post as the topic died. Spent a little time re-finding the info, but here goes.

Back in the 60s a flight from Dar Es Salaam to London - one way, economy class was £156 (see p20 in the link).

https://eastafricanairways.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/ec68.pdf
https://www.jstor.org/stable/524610?seq=5 (this is an academic article on wages in Tanzania in the 60s, not sure whether you can access it)

Now £156 might not seem too expensive, but factor in inflation over the past 55+ years and that is about £4000 in today's money. For comparison, you can get the equivalent flight today for about £350, less than one tenth of the equivalent 1960s cost in today's prices. In the UK £156 would have represented about two months worth of the average gross wage at the time.

But of course Sunak's grandmother wasn't in the UK and earning at UK rates at the time, she was in Tanzania earning Tanzanian rates. So she would have paid 2681 shillings (see p 19) - the average monthly wage in Tanzania at the time was 195 Shs, so her ticket would have cost approx. 14 month worth of gross average wage. And that's gross wages so assuming nothing is removed in tax nor anything spend on housing, food, heating and lighting etc etc. Again to provide a UK equivalent today where average annual gross salary is about £26k, that would be the current equivalent of having to spend over £30k on your ticket. Did her grandmother really have sufficient wealth to give her granddaughter jewellery worth over a year's average wage on her wedding. Blimey!

And no, this isn't professional research as this is way outside my areas of expertise, but the sources are very credible - however one of the things that an academic training provides you with is the ability to properly research a particular topic, including the ability to access academic papers that may not be accessible to everyone.



« Last Edit: April 29, 2023, 09:56:03 AM by ProfessorDavey »

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46262 on: April 29, 2023, 07:36:46 PM »
Oh dear - you really don't do yourself any favour in the 'research' you link to do you.

So does this article tell is the relative affordability of flights in the 1960s compared to now - well no it doesn't but it does give us a little hint:

About the 60s: "But holidays were infrequent, mostly to relatives and friends, and never abroad."

About now: "That said, she’s just back from a weekend with friends in Budapest – but cheap Ryanair getaways are hardly a substitute for housing."

I wonder why very few people went abroad in the 1960s - do you think it was because accommodation in Greece was prohibitively expensive, or perhaps that beer and wine in Spain was eyewateringly expensive. Hmm, doesn't seem likely does it - almost as if there is something else that was really expensive back then - wonder what that could have been.

Well actually I did do some research on the topic when we discussed it some months ago but didn't post as the topic died. Spent a little time re-finding the info, but here goes.

Back in the 60s a flight from Dar Es Salaam to London - one way, economy class was £156 (see p20 in the link).

https://eastafricanairways.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/ec68.pdf
https://www.jstor.org/stable/524610?seq=5 (this is an academic article on wages in Tanzania in the 60s, not sure whether you can access it)

Now £156 might not seem too expensive, but factor in inflation over the past 55+ years and that is about £4000 in today's money. For comparison, you can get the equivalent flight today for about £350, less than one tenth of the equivalent 1960s cost in today's prices. In the UK £156 would have represented about two months worth of the average gross wage at the time.

But of course Sunak's grandmother wasn't in the UK and earning at UK rates at the time, she was in Tanzania earning Tanzanian rates. So she would have paid 2681 shillings (see p 19) - the average monthly wage in Tanzania at the time was 195 Shs, so her ticket would have cost approx. 14 month worth of gross average wage. And that's gross wages so assuming nothing is removed in tax nor anything spend on housing, food, heating and lighting etc etc. Again to provide a UK equivalent today where average annual gross salary is about £26k, that would be the current equivalent of having to spend over £30k on your ticket. Did her grandmother really have sufficient wealth to give her granddaughter jewellery worth over a year's average wage on her wedding. Blimey!

And no, this isn't professional research as this is way outside my areas of expertise, but the sources are very credible - however one of the things that an academic training provides you with is the ability to properly research a particular topic, including the ability to access academic papers that may not be accessible to everyone.
Oh dear - are you still banging on about this, claiming you as a scientist know better than other people's lived experiences - based on absolutely nothing more than your prejudices that brown people who came from abroad are in your eyes coming from a "humble background" and going from "rags to riches"? Your efforts on here are looking increasingly foolish. Why are you still speculating about this - why are you so obsessed with some woman who sold some jewellery in the 1960s to pay for a plane ticket to the UK?

I expect Dicky Underpants will be along in a minute to tell you that you "seem to have quite an obsession with presenting yourself as always being in the right. Such people can be very forceful members of society - they can also be very dangerous, especially if male (A.E. van Vogt, of all people was the first the really draw attention to the phenomenon, and wrote an interesting monograph on it). But your personality would probably have been of greater interest to Alfred Adler.."

I don't need to access your research papers - I can just speak to my parents. My dad flew to Israel from Sri Lanka in the mid 1960s to do his Bsc on a one way student ticket via Pakistan - he borrowed the airfare - his cousin who had recently emigrated to the US and got a job sent $85 for a student plane ticket to Sri Lanka. He repaid the money about a year and a half later. Both my parents flew to the UK separately in 1971 when my dad came to do his masters. My mum's plane ticket to the UK cost about £135 - she was working in Sri Lanka so paid from savings and her salary. My dad had also been working in Sri Lanka before he left for the UK to do his masters.

By the way my mum's father (my grandfather) did not pay for her medical school in India - it was free. Yet he did not have any savings, did not own property (his wife had a small share of property in the rural north of Sri Lanka) but he'd lost all their money during his business dealings in India.

My dad had to pay a little more for his air fare to the UK in 1971 than my mum as she had a work visa to fly to the UK to work in the NHS but he had to buy his plane ticket on the black market as he did not have a work visa or a student visa. Once in the UK in 1971, with only £5 to his name, he borrowed £60 from a cousin, who was working as a security guard (1 of 3 different jobs his cousin was working to support his wife and 2 small children in the UK). The cousin had to get a bank loan to lend my dad the £60 - the cousin, his family and some other relatives were all renting a house together to keep their costs down. The cousin's son is now a GP and owns a multi-million pound house in Gerrards Cross, Bucks ( one of the most expensive commuter towns near London where the average house price is £1.59m). But I certainly wouldn't label it some "rags to riches" story or any other patronising, condescending term you want to apply to Asians who immigrated to the UK. It was just a bunch of hard-working, aspirational people who weren't living in the lap of luxury.

Once in the UK in 1971 my parents were not wealthy or living in luxury or getting money sent to them by rich relatives from abroad to help them establish themselves. They just got on with it, saved, brought my grandparents and me and my brother over, bought a house in London, bought a bigger house in London and in addition bought a 3 bed flat in West Kensington as an investment, put 2 kids through private school (which cost a lot less in proportion to their income than it costs now). Again this is no "rags to riches" story - there was no "rags" involved. They were educated professionals who started with very little money in the UK, but they had the privilege of their education and they did not find it that difficult to progress. I don't see any "rags" involved in Sunak's grandmother's story either - that's just your biased perception that coming from Tanzania means there are any "rags" involved.

But why take my word for it when there is so much on the internet about Asia immigration to the UK in the 1960s and 1970s - people coming from villages and towns and arriving at Heathrow. https://www.racearchive.org.uk/coming-to-manchester-stories-of-south-asian-migration-to-manchester/

We can see similar stories today - with migrants finding ways to pay thousands of pounds to people smugglers to get to the UK - where do they find the money? Or in your eyes are they all upper middle-class rich people just pretending to be fleeing war torn countries?
« Last Edit: April 29, 2023, 09:53:21 PM by The Accountant, OBE, KC »
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46263 on: April 30, 2023, 09:01:21 AM »
Such people can be very forceful members of society - they can also be very dangerous, especially if male
Blimey - VG moves to a whole new level of ad hom attack :o Note the overt sexism too.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46264 on: April 30, 2023, 09:17:51 AM »
My mum's plane ticket to the UK cost about £135 - she was working in Sri Lanka so paid from savings and her salary.
You really aren't helping yourself VG - have you actually done any work to check the affordability of £135 to the average Sri Lankan in 1971? I suspect not.

£135 in 1971 would have been $329 (exchange rate was 2.4336). The average annual wage in Sri Lanka in 1971 was about $170 - so that flight would have cost nearly 2 years worth of gross wages for the average person.

To put this into context of the UK today - that would be a ticket costing over £50k.

Now I'm not doubting that you mum did afford that ticket - what I am doubting was that she could have afforded it if her background was like that of most Sri Lankans at the time. But given that the stories of your parents and grandparents (assuming these are true) seem littered with people off to medical school, deciding which other country (or even continent) to go to to study at university (including post-graduate), people off to private school, off to boarding school, someone "very high up in the British colonial business interests", I'd suggest that the people you describe didn't have a lived experience similar to the vast majority of people in Sri Lanka at the time, indeed not remotely similar to the vast majority of people in the UK at the time.

But then you do seem to be accepting this point with your comment "They were educated professionals who started with very little money in the UK, but they had the privilege of their education and they did not find it that difficult to progress." This has been my point all along - advantage doesn't just mean having more money, it also relates to education and therefore earning potential and also to the skills and networks that typically go along with having high level education and professional skills which create opportunities that are completely beyond most people.

The issue has never been whether someone had £10 or £10k in their pocket, but the advantages they possess due to their (often multigenerational) background compared to the vast majority of people. As far as I can see Sunak has come from generations of advantage of that type - starting from a position near the top of the tree in India, relocation to East Africa and rapidly attained a position near the top of the tree, relocation to the UK and again rapidly attaining a position near the top of the tree. As I think I mentioned upthread advantage begets advantage.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2023, 06:52:28 PM by ProfessorDavey »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46265 on: April 30, 2023, 09:20:23 AM »
Blimey - VG moves to a whole new level of ad hom attack :o Note the overt sexism too.
Just to check, would you apply that to Dicky Underoants who is being quoted by Gabriella from reply 46187?

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46266 on: April 30, 2023, 09:28:10 AM »
Just to check, would you apply that to Dicky Underoants who is being quoted by Gabriella from reply 46187?
Actually, yes, I would.

Must admit that I hadn't clocked DU's comment, but I think we are on very tricky territory when we begin to infer that posters are 'dangerous' merely for having an opinion that someone else here doesn't like or agree with.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46267 on: April 30, 2023, 09:41:33 AM »
Actually, yes, I would.

Must admit that I hadn't clocked DU's comment, but I think we are on very tricky territory when we begin to infer that posters are 'dangerous' merely for having an opinion that someone else here doesn't like or agree with.

Which given that rather looks like the point Gabriella was making means you agree with one and other on this at least.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46268 on: April 30, 2023, 09:48:23 AM »
Which given that rather looks like the point Gabriella was making means you agree with one and other on this at least.
If VG thinks it inappropriate to infer that another poster is very dangerous then I completely agree with her. But it seems weird then that she chose to use that term in relation to me, regardless of whether she was paraphrasing DU. Two wrongs don't make a right.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46269 on: May 05, 2023, 10:09:58 AM »
Blimey - VG moves to a whole new level of ad hom attack :o Note the overt sexism too.
You seem to have trouble reading for comprehension or is it that your quote-mining is moving to a whole new level of dishonesty.

What I actually wrote was that " I expect Dicky Underpants will be along in a minute to tell you that you...." and then I quoted Dicky Underpants' ad hom to me. That should have helped you deduce that I was highlighting DU's opinion and not my own. And yes please do note DU's prejudices - in #46187 he wrote his ad hom to me but not to you, yet we were both defending our opinions that we were right.

If you read my post as me rather than DU making an ad hom to you, it goes some way to explaining why you are struggling so much to make a convincing argument that Sunak's grandmother was funded by rich relatives when she moved to the UK in the 1960s. Your prejudices and biases seem to keep propelling you to leap to incorrect assumptions and unfounded conclusions.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46270 on: May 05, 2023, 10:53:31 AM »
You seem to have trouble reading for comprehension or is it that your quote-mining is moving to a whole new level of dishonesty.

What I actually wrote was that " I expect Dicky Underpants will be along in a minute to tell you that you...." and then I quoted Dicky Underpants' ad hom to me. That should have helped you deduce that I was highlighting DU's opinion and not my own. And yes please do note DU's prejudices - in #46187 he wrote his ad hom to me but not to you, yet we were both defending our opinions that we were right.
Morning VG.

As I made clear in my post to NS (reply 46266) I hadn't actually noticed DU's comment, hence I was rather confused as to why you had name checked him in your reply to a post of mine.

What I did not, however in your reply to my post was a claim which appeared to be aimed at me that suggested that I was 'very dangerous' due to my views.

Now if you weren't aiming that at me then I apologise for thinking that to be the case, but I can hardly be blamed for coming to that conclusion as your reply was to my post.

I have also been clear in my reply to NS that I do not agree that we should be claiming that other posters are 'very dangerous' and that represents an ad hom attack. I also made it clear that I held that view regardless of whether the ad hom came from you or from DU (reply 46268). So I think I have covered off the points you've raised.

But just so we are actually clear as it did seem weird that you'd use these terms in a reply to me if you were actually having a go at DU. So can you confirm please that you do not consider me to be 'very dangerous'.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46271 on: May 05, 2023, 11:13:55 AM »
If you read my post as me rather than DU making an ad hom to you, it goes some way to explaining why you are struggling so much to make a convincing argument that Sunak's grandmother was funded by rich relatives when she moved to the UK in the 1960s. Your prejudices and biases seem to keep propelling you to leap to incorrect assumptions and unfounded conclusions.
Nice distraction tactic on the rest of the post.

As you might expect I've based my arguments on evidence, not on guessing. Presuming it to be correct that she arrived by plane, we know that ticket would have cost over a years average gross wage in Tanzania where she was based at the time. Now it doesn't really matter whether her grandmother was rich enough to give her jewellery that had £30k value (using current UK equivalent for ease of understanding) which she chose to see to fund the ticket. Or she had other income to fund it in part - the point is that most people would not have been in the position to have over a years worth of gross income lying around to fund a plane ticket. And of course there were far cheaper options for travel back then so traveling by plane was a choice (an expensive choice) she made.

The bottom line is that we are looking at a family that had advantage over many generations - they were middle class, well educated and it would appear pretty affluent if they were getting wedding gifts worth more than an average person's yearly wage.

And as I have pointed out many times, advantage begets advantage.

Now on bias - I suspect you struggle here because your background also looks rather similar - highly educated, previous generations off to private schools or university or "very high up in the British colonial business interests", so you benchmark against your own family background as 'the norm'. This isn't the norm VG - people who were solidly middle class professionals, privately educated, university educated etc in the early to middle 20thC represented the exception, not the norm. People with that background, particularly over several generations were the advantaged elite. And that was the case (to a greater or lesser extent) in the UK, in India, in Sri Lanka and in Tanzania.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46272 on: May 05, 2023, 11:15:14 AM »
You really aren't helping yourself VG - have you actually done any work to check the affordability of £135 to the average Sri Lankan in 1971? I suspect not.

£135 in 1971 would have been $329 (exchange rate was 2.4336). The average annual wage in Sri Lanka in 1971 was about $170 - so that flight would have cost nearly 2 years worth of gross wages for the average person.

To put this into context of the UK today - that would be a ticket costing over £50k.

Now I'm not doubting that you mum did afford that ticket - what I am doubting was that she could have afforded it if her background was like that of most Sri Lankans at the time. But given that the stories of your parents and grandparents (assuming these are true) seem littered with people off to medical school, deciding which other country (or even continent) to go to to study at university (including post-graduate), people off to private school, off to boarding school, someone "very high up in the British colonial business interests", I'd suggest that the people you describe didn't have a lived experience similar to the vast majority of people in Sri Lanka at the time, indeed not remotely similar to the vast majority of people in the UK at the time.
Medical school was free in India so you did not need to be wealthy to attend  -you just had to get the grades to get in and then you had to study and pass your exams. Hence, despite my grandparents having very little savings and owning no property in India, my mother was able to qualify as a doctor. I believe that was the same situation in the UK - you didn't need to be wealthy and privileged to study medicine.

A medical qualification from India meant you could get a job as a doctor in Sri Lanka. You could also get a job as a doctor in the UK. The UK recognised medical qualifications from Commonwealth countries - I guess they realised the foreign doctors seemed to have the knowledge and experience to do the role and the British government seemed to be struggling to educate /train their local population to qualify as doctors.

Israel was offering funding to Sri Lankans to study in Israel so no my dad did not need to come from a wealthy background - he just had to apply, sit an exam, attend an interview and show aptitude and potential.

After he finished in Israel, Dad then got a job in an engineering firm in Sri Lanka. The British Council offered funding for dad to go to the UK for his Masters in Engineering - so again he did not need to be wealthy. So he took the offer but then the offer was revoked due to a change in Sri Lankan government policy. Hence, my mother needed to fly to the UK and start working as a doctor to fund him and they lived together in hospital accommodation.

Quote
But then you do seem to be accepting this point with your comment "They were educated professionals who started with very little money in the UK, but they had the privilege of their education and they did not find it that difficult to progress." This has been my point all along - advantage doesn't just mean having more money, it also relates to education and therefore earning potential and also to the skills and networks that typically go along with having high level education and professional skills which create opportunities that are completely beyond most people.

The issue has never been whether someone had £10 or £10k in their pocket, but the advantages they possess due to their (often multigenerational) background compared to the vast majority of people. As far as I can see Sunak has come from generations of advantage of that type - starting from a position near the top of the tree in India, relocation to East Africa and rapidly attained a position near the top of the tree, relocation to the UK and again rapidly attaining a position near the top of the tree. As I think I mentioned upthread advantage begets advantage.
I was under the impression from your posts that you thought Sunak's grandmother's immigrant experience in the UK was funded by her wealthy relatives. Your misguided focus on the cost of plane tickets, local salaries and your comparison of people who emigrate to the vast majority of people who don't and who stay put in their country of birth, seems to have totally misunderstood the immigrant experience. The whole point is that it takes a certain level of self-belief. skills, willingness to take a risk, sacrifice and hard work to emigrate - to leave behind what you know and your family and move to a more expensive, unknown country with very little funds and only a few family connections within a under-privileged, minority community to help you, but with the determination to use whatever skills you have to try to carve a new life for yourself and contribute to society and bring your family over.

Of course the average citizen of the country being left behind for pastures new does not make this move so it's irrelevant to compare the immigrant to the average person in their previous country of residence.

But what you should focus on is that if you were a minority in your original country of residence, it may often lead you to be brought up with the idea that you have to try harder, be better in order to succeed because you don't have the privilege of being in the majority. In these situations it is often drummed into you from a young age that as a a member of a minority community, your way to succeed was by focusing on excelling in education and getting professional qualifications that would lead to a well-paying in demand career, or a job with security, options to further your career and a pension e.g. in the civil service. People from similar backgrounds would have helped each other and shared useful knowledge, experiences and skills. This mind-set would have applied to the minority Indian community in Tanzania that Sunak's grandmother came from, and was the experience of my parents' ethnic minority community in Sri Lanka. This mindset is also passed to the children of immigrants to the UK, especially if their parents have learned this perspective from their own parents.

Your point all along seemed to give the impression that Sunak's grandmother came from a background of wealth and privilege compared to other immigrants who succeed in Britain or compared to local Brits. The point is that the average immigrant arriving in the UK in the 1960s and 1970s by plane was rarely rich or privileged compared to local UK residents, and yet through hard work, sacrifice, a focus on education and the aspiration to be able to use that education to eventually move into a job that would allow them to save, pay a deposit, afford a mortgage, some immigrants were able to make a comfortable life for themselves. The "privileged background" of Sunak's grandmother and my parents in comparison to British locals is that in the country they left, they were part of a discriminated against minority, and coming to the UK was just more of the same experience of discrimination, which meant they already had the skills and drive to push themselves to overcome that disadvantage, and they would network within their under-privileged community to figure out ways of compensating for the disadvantage of being a minority or find a way of overcoming that disadvantage.

I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46273 on: May 05, 2023, 11:27:01 AM »
Medical school was free in India so you did not need to be wealthy to attend -you just had to get the grades to get in and then you had to study and pass your exams. ...
Let me just stop you there.

You do understand that the barriers to higher level education aren't just about direct cost of study, but a whole raft of other barriers to opportunity, some of which are also financial. The most notable being that in order to be able to become a doctor you will need to stay in study for many years beyond the end of compulsory study and that means not earning a full time wage, even if study itself is free. So when compulsory education end (which would be way earlier than the current 18 in the UK, back in the 60s in India) them most parents couldn't afford a non wage earner - for most people, regardless of their inherent intellectual abilities, it was off to work for you. Absolutely no opportunity for further study which would have needed before you came close to medical school.

Add to that the competition for places - then as now private education was for the elite few and would presumably have provided much greater likelihood for those fortunate few who benefitted to gain the top grades. So for the vast majority the notion of medical school was a pipe dream - typically they would have been expected to leave school and start earning as soon as possible and even if they did remain in a state funded school they'd be competing for the tiny number of places at medical school with the elite few who were being educated privately with resources they can only dream at. That medical school, once you get there, might have been free is irrelevant. Medical school education in the UK was also free - that didn't mean that the places weren't overwhelmingly taken by those already from highly advantaged middle class professional backgrounds.

I genuinely think that your background really prevents you from seeing the wood for the trees.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46274 on: May 05, 2023, 11:38:13 AM »
I believe that was the same situation in the UK - you didn't need to be wealthy and privileged to study medicine.
In theory - but reality isn't theory is it.

In practice, it was absolutely the norm that to study medicine in the UK (and I'd image elsewhere) back then you needed to be from an advantaged middle class background.

You really don't seem to grasp that social mobility and opportunity for those from less advantaged backgrounds goes well beyond whether medical school (or other elite professional training) needed to be paid for. For a whole raft of reasons that kind of aspiration was way beyond the vast, vast majority of people.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2023, 12:06:04 PM by ProfessorDavey »