Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3750020 times)

Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46375 on: May 22, 2023, 12:27:39 PM »
I don’t know whether you are trying to say all joy is equivalent here.

In the sense that it's personal it perhaps is.
 
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I think we have to wonder why the Archbishop of Canterbury is more likely to talk about joy than a celebrity atheist for instance.

You are mistaking how often those people talk about those things with how often you get to hear about it. For reasons that are still to be explained we still give a public forum to the Archbishop of Canterbury on pretty much any topic he wishes to opine on, but by contrast the opportunities for 'celebrity atheists' to get their message out is limited to instances where they are dealing with the institutions or philosophies of religion.

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What we have then is Christians talking more of joy.

Perhaps we do, but perhaps we have that because Christianity doesn't want to talk about its failing basis or declining relevance and instead wants to pick other topics. It's like how the Tories don't want to talk about the effects of Brexit but talk about Starmer's backtracking a lot.

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In terms of equivalence we must remember that Christians can also experience the joy of Rachmaninov, or football, or sex but not equate those joys with the joy of, as Alan puts it, being one with God and even a non believer should see the type of potential joy in having been the prodigal son or daughter being welcomed home by the Father.

And I don't put the joy of being a father up against the joy of scoring at try or remembering the freedoms being born in late 20th Century Britain brings me - those are quantitative differences, not qualitative.

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Of course an atheist could argue that Christians have an inferior joy of the world (How do you measure that I wonder) as expressed in Douglas Adams’ horses laugh argument about enjoying the garden without the fairies at the bottom of it.

Strange that you should take Adams argument as an attack rather than him purely noting that he doesn't need you superstition to appreciate nature.

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This of course appeals not only to the supposed superiority of atheist joy but seeks to ration joy in the process.

Who would have thought you might so badly misunderstand or misrepresent an argument?

O.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46376 on: May 22, 2023, 12:38:36 PM »
Vlad,

He wasn’t.
 
A dubious claim, but in any case why pick the A of C as your example rather than an example from, say, Hinduism, Buddhism, Sufism, Shamanism etc?     

Yet again, what you should have said there is the belief in “having been the prodigal son or daughter being welcomed home by the Father”. Joy derived from a belief tells you nothing though about the truthfulness of that belief – unless that is you also think that anyone who experiences joy from any religious belief at all also implies that his belief must also therefore be true too?   

That’s not what DA argued. What he actually said was:

Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?

The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

Where’s the charge of “inferior” joy in that?

See also Richard Feynman who expressed as similar idea:

“I have a friend who's an artist and has sometimes taken a view which I don't agree with very well. He'll hold up a flower and say "look how beautiful it is," and I'll agree. Then he says "I as an artist can see how beautiful this is but you as a scientist take this all apart and it becomes a dull thing," and I think that he's kind of nutty. First of all, the beauty that he sees is available to other people and to me too, I believe. Although I may not be quite as refined aesthetically as he is ... I can appreciate the beauty of a flower. At the same time, I see much more about the flower than he sees. I could imagine the cells in there, the complicated actions inside, which also have a beauty. I mean it's not just beauty at this dimension, at one centimeter; there's also beauty at smaller dimensions, the inner structure, also the processes. The fact that the colors in the flower evolved in order to attract insects to pollinate it is interesting; it means that insects can see the color. It adds a question: does this aesthetic sense also exist in the lower forms? Why is it aesthetic? All kinds of interesting questions which the science knowledge only adds to the excitement, the mystery and the awe of a flower. It only adds. I don't understand how it subtracts.

The Pleasure of Finding Things Out: The Best Short Works of Richard P. Feynman

As you’ve just invented this supposed behaviour, no it doesn’t.
Perhaps you can help out?
Did Feynman get more joy out of science or playing the Bongos?

I don’t know if James Clerk Maxwell played the Bongos but he certainly “Found things out” and was a believer to boot.

ekim

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46377 on: May 22, 2023, 02:38:57 PM »

How can anyone possibly claim that all joy is equivalent as it is an entirely personal response.

MY point is AB can no more claim that his joy at being at one with God is any more joyous than me listening to Shostakovich.

We all experience joy in different ways and about different things. To me, God is not essential for experiencing joy, it is simply one of the many inputs that can provoke the feeling.

You appear to be trying to classify joy in the same way that others seek to classify love. All joy is equal, except some joy is more equal than others.

It simply is not a measurable thing.



I suspect that the idea around joy, bliss, blessedness, Heaven is more about a 'state' of being that one can be consciously aware of constantly rather than a transient pleasurable condition resulting from a response to stimuli. Sin (hamartia - to miss the mark) is that which causes one to deviate from that 'state'.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46378 on: May 22, 2023, 08:10:14 PM »
Vlad,

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Perhaps you can help out?
Did Feynman get more joy out of science or playing the Bongos?

I don’t know if James Clerk Maxwell played the Bongos but he certainly “Found things out” and was a believer to boot.

Did you have anything relevant to say?
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Aruntraveller

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46379 on: May 22, 2023, 10:41:52 PM »
I suspect that the idea around joy, bliss, blessedness, Heaven is more about a 'state' of being that one can be consciously aware of constantly rather than a transient pleasurable condition resulting from a response to stimuli. Sin (hamartia - to miss the mark) is that which causes one to deviate from that 'state'.

Oh I see.

They are talking about the euphoria of the cult.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

ekim

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46380 on: May 23, 2023, 09:39:30 AM »
Oh I see.

They are talking about the euphoria of the cult.
Those who are cult minded might see the group mind as the source of euphoria.  Some might see the cult leader as the source.  The mystics tend to promote a more insular method that individuals can use to discover the source within themselves, which possibly leads to sayings like 'The Kingdom of Heaven is within you'.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46381 on: May 23, 2023, 01:15:40 PM »
Oh I see.

They are talking about the euphoria of the cult.
Euphoria of the cult?

What Euphoria is that?

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46382 on: May 23, 2023, 01:26:55 PM »
Vlad,

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Euphoria of the cult?

What Euphoria is that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHUFTPfFJ6Q
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46383 on: May 23, 2023, 02:13:38 PM »
Vlad,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHUFTPfFJ6Q
As brilliantly uplifting as that video was I don't think this level of joy is maintained 24/7.
It would therefore be erroneous to equate this with Christian joy which can be  expressed in other ways.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46384 on: May 23, 2023, 03:53:55 PM »
Vlad,

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As brilliantly uplifting as that video was…

Are you using “brilliantly uplifting” here in its lesser-known alternative sense of “batshit crazy”?

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… I don't think this level of joy is maintained 24/7.

And nor to my knowledge is that something most Christians would claim (or that Aruntraveller suggested) either – are you suggesting that no matter how devastating the bereavement, the pain, the emotional turmoil Christians as a whole wander round with a stupid grins on their faces all the time nonetheless because they’re in a permanent state of joy? Seriously though?

Sounds like hell to me if you are. 

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It would therefore be erroneous to equate this with Christian joy which can be  expressed in other ways.

As 1). Your premise failed, and 2). That’s a non sequitur in any case, not is wouldn’t.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2023, 04:06:09 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46385 on: May 23, 2023, 10:36:49 PM »

And nor to my knowledge is that something most Christians would claim (or that Aruntraveller suggested) either – are you suggesting that no matter how devastating the bereavement, the pain, the emotional turmoil Christians as a whole wander round with a stupid grins on their faces all the time nonetheless because they’re in a permanent state of joy? Seriously though?
The inner joy which comes from knowing God is there all the time - no matter what turmoil we have to endure.
But you will never know of this joy until you come to know God.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46386 on: May 24, 2023, 09:09:04 AM »
The inner joy which comes from knowing God is there all the time - no matter what turmoil we have to endure.

Do you not see that, if true, that's the most appallingly abusive relationship imaginable?

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46387 on: May 24, 2023, 09:30:15 AM »
Do you not see that, if true, that's the most appallingly abusive relationship imaginable?

O.
Why?

James 1:2
Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds
« Last Edit: May 24, 2023, 09:54:00 AM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46388 on: May 24, 2023, 10:08:45 AM »
Why?

James 1:2
Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds


God is responsible for all the trials, all the pains and evils and suffering, and you're supposed to ignore that whilst basking in the needy glory... and you don't see a problem with that?

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46389 on: May 24, 2023, 10:16:36 AM »
God is responsible for all the trials, all the pains and evils and suffering, and you're supposed to ignore that whilst basking in the needy glory... and you don't see a problem with that?

O.
No, your position is more akin to someone invited to a party, refusing the invitation...then gets angry that he's not enjoying the benefits of the party so then tries to tear the party venue down.

Complaining that God is responsible for a bad relationship doesn't seem to be an atheist argument.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46390 on: May 24, 2023, 10:19:50 AM »
God is responsible for all the trials, all the pains and evils and suffering, and you're supposed to ignore that whilst basking in the needy glory... and you don't see a problem with that?

O.
No
Because Joy is the abiding and pervasive sense of well being which comes from knowing that I am loved by God.
I do not hold God responsible for all the trials, all the pains and evils and suffering in this world, but I know that God will help me through them if I keep faith in Him.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Aruntraveller

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46391 on: May 24, 2023, 10:38:33 AM »
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I do not hold God responsible for all the trials, all the pains and evils and suffering in this world, but I know that God will help me through them if I keep faith in Him.

But God created this world according to you. God is also omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent according to Christians. This means God knows what he has created AND what that will lead to.

He shouldn't be helping you through your trials, he should be apologising to you face to face. But God doesn't because he is a coward and a bully.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46392 on: May 24, 2023, 10:53:03 AM »
AB,

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The inner joy which comes from knowing God is there all the time - no matter what turmoil we have to endure.

You’re overreaching again. It’s not “knowing” god, it’s believing that you “know God”. Does it not even give you pause that countless people who have believed in countless other gods that you think to be false have also reported feeling euphoric about their beliefs too?

If it doesn't occur to you, it really should. 

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But you will never know of this joy until you come to know God.

Wrong again – see above. You might think living in a sort of celestial North Korea is a desirable place to be, but it sounds hellish to me.   
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46393 on: May 24, 2023, 11:10:40 AM »
But God created this world according to you. God is also omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent according to Christians. This means God knows what he has created AND what that will lead to.

He shouldn't be helping you through your trials, he should be apologising to you face to face. But God doesn't because he is a coward and a bully.
That's only half of the Christian account though. Yes He's given us freedom to alienate ourselves but through Christ he's kept the channels open. Some prodigals have returned, some have yet to return and some refuse the offer.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46394 on: May 24, 2023, 11:19:52 AM »
Vlad,

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No, your position is more akin to someone invited to a party, refusing the invitation...then gets angry that he's not enjoying the benefits of the party so then tries to tear the party venue down.

No it isn’t. His position is more like someone whose neighbour is running a 24-hour party with all the windows open and the party-goers spilling into the street to try to drag in passers-by who want nothing to do with it. Oh, and the DJ also sits by right on the council that licences the venue's activities.     

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Complaining that God is responsible for a bad relationship doesn't seem to be an atheist argument.

It isn’t – it’s just yet another of your straw men.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46395 on: May 24, 2023, 11:20:17 AM »
That's only half of the Christian account though. Yes He's given us freedom to alienate ourselves but through Christ he's kept the channels open. Some prodigals have returned, some have yet to return and some refuse the offer.
And for some (many?) there is no "offer".
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46396 on: May 24, 2023, 11:21:43 AM »
Vlad,

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That's only half of the Christian account though. Yes He's given us freedom to alienate ourselves but through Christ he's kept the channels open. Some prodigals have returned, some have yet to return and some refuse the offer.

Wrong again:

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Reification
"Don't make me come down there."

God

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46397 on: May 24, 2023, 11:23:39 AM »
Seb,

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And for some (many?) there is no "offer".

I've yet to see a cogent justification for the claim that there's an "offer" for anyone.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46398 on: May 24, 2023, 11:42:15 AM »
And for some (many?) there is no "offer".
John 6.37 whoever comes to me I will in no way turn away

Amongst others.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46399 on: May 24, 2023, 11:48:08 AM »