Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3885906 times)

torridon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10209
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46500 on: June 03, 2023, 01:16:08 PM »
In addition to my own conscience, I have the words of Jesus to help me discern what is good or evil and especially to help me see through the deceptions of the evil one.

So how do you know the words of Jesus are good guidance ?  According to many muslims, the Bible has been corrupted to tempt people away from true belief, replacing the Oneness of God with a neo-pagan neo-polytheist religion in which God has family and this is offensive to God.  If you have been deceived into false beliefs and immoral judgements by Satan, you would have no way of knowing.

Sebastian Toe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7719
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46501 on: June 03, 2023, 01:38:03 PM »
In addition to my own conscience, I have the words of Jesus to help me discern what is good or evil and especially to help me see through the deceptions of the evil one.
What do people use to manage if they have never heard of your god, Jesus , the Bible or the "evil one"?
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Dicky Underpants

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4369
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46502 on: June 03, 2023, 06:23:57 PM »
In addition to my own conscience, I have the words of Jesus to help me discern what is good or evil and especially to help me see through the deceptions of the evil one.
Following on from what Seb has just written, have you any thoughts on why God took so long to designate Satan in the manner in which you believe in him? After all, in the whole of the Old Testament, there is not one single reference to Satan being the source of evil. In fact, except in one instance (Zechariah 3) there indeed is no instance of him doing anything without God's express permission, almost effectively doing God's dirty work for him.
More than that, there are precious few references to Satan as an individual personage at all.
Why this remarkable silence in Jewish history? Didn't they need to know? Why wait until Jesus is supposed (in John's gospel) to have said that the Devil "was a liar from the first. ..For he is a liar and the father of it"?
« Last Edit: June 03, 2023, 06:48:03 PM by Dicky Underpants »
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

Le Bon David

Maeght

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5680
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46503 on: June 03, 2023, 06:31:33 PM »
In addition to my own conscience, I have the words of Jesus to help me discern what is good or evil and especially to help me see through the deceptions of the evil one.

How do you know that what is written in the Bible are the words of Jesus?

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46504 on: June 03, 2023, 11:59:19 PM »
How do you know that what is written in the Bible are the words of Jesus?
I, along with other Christians, believe that the words of Jesus are not just the words of a mere mortal, but the word of God.
Christianity is the only religion which can claim to have had direct dialogue with God on this earth.

The ultimate test of this belief lies with the historical accounts of the resurrection.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Maeght

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5680
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46505 on: June 04, 2023, 03:16:38 AM »
I, along with other Christians, believe that the words of Jesus are not just the words of a mere mortal, but the word of God.
Christianity is the only religion which can claim to have had direct dialogue with God on this earth.

The ultimate test of this belief lies with the historical accounts of the resurrection.

Believing isn't knowing. Christianity can claim that but that doesn't mean it is a fact. It is a belief. How do you know that the accounts of the resurrection in the Bible reflect reality? What makes you believe the accounts written by unknown authors decades after the events? You will, I'm sure, mention the apostles dying for their beliefs, since you have done so before, but again there is little evidence to support this claim. When asked for the evidence you never supply it.

torridon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10209
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46506 on: June 04, 2023, 07:10:36 AM »
The ultimate test of this belief lies with the historical accounts of the resurrection.

There are no historical accounts of the resurrection. In fact there is scarcely any reference to Jesus in the historical record at all, perhaps passing references in Tacitus and Flavius Josephus, but certainly nothing on the resurrection.

torridon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10209
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46507 on: June 04, 2023, 07:14:37 AM »
I, along with other Christians, believe that the words of Jesus are not just the words of a mere mortal, but the word of God.
..

So what ?  Muslims believe the Qur'an to be the word of God, dictated word for word by Gabriel for the avoidance of any ambiguity.

If you'd been born in Karachi, you'd be believing this also.  Such beliefs are products of culture, and owe nothing to scholarship, empiricism or objective research methods.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2023, 07:33:12 AM by torridon »

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18266
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46508 on: June 04, 2023, 08:23:40 AM »
I, along with other Christians, believe that the words of Jesus are not just the words of a mere mortal, but the word of God.
Christianity is the only religion which can claim to have had direct dialogue with God on this earth.

The ultimate test of this belief lies with the historical accounts of the resurrection.

These are anecdotal accounts with unknown provenance and therefore, given the risks, these are not verifiable historical accounts and are only 'believable' if you deliberately avoid any form of thoughtful scrutiny.

So I can't see that belief in the resurrection claim is either justifiable or reasonable.

Spud

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7138
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46509 on: June 04, 2023, 10:31:18 AM »
Believing isn't knowing. Christianity can claim that but that doesn't mean it is a fact. It is a belief. How do you know that the accounts of the resurrection in the Bible reflect reality? What makes you believe the accounts written by unknown authors decades after the events? You will, I'm sure, mention the apostles dying for their beliefs, since you have done so before, but again there is little evidence to support this claim. When asked for the evidence you never supply it.
You would need to cross-examine the witnesses and see if their stories agree. Both Matthew's and John's accounts say that a woman held onto Jesus when he appeared to her, that Jesus referred to his disciples as his 'brethren', and that he appeared to them in Galilee. The discrepancies, such as whether it was by a lake or up a mountain in Galilee, point to them being independent from each other. Luke and John agree that Simon went to the tomb on hearing the womens' message and that Jesus appeared to the disciples in Jerusalem while they were together. Luke and John also mention that Jesus invited them to touch him to show he was real, and that he ate fish in front of them. Just a few pointers.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2023, 01:54:24 PM by Spud »

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64327
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46510 on: June 04, 2023, 10:33:31 AM »
You would need to cross-examine the witnesses and see if their stories agree. Both Matthew's and John's accounts say that a woman grabbed Jesus when he appeared to her, that Jesus referred to his disciples as his 'brethren', and that he appeared to them in Galilee. The discrepancies, such as whether it was by a lake or up a mountain in Galilee, point to them being independent from each other. Luke and John agree that Simon went to the tomb on hearing the womens' message and that Jesus appeared to the disciples in Jerusalem while they were together. Luke and John also mention that Jesus invited them to touch him to show he was real, and that he ate fish in front of them. Just a few pointers.
You know nothing about who wrote tje Gospels. The names attached are mere decoration. What you have is not even hearsay. Using the terms cross examine and witnesses in this context is lying.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2023, 10:52:45 AM by Nearly Sane »

Spud

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7138
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46511 on: June 04, 2023, 10:48:28 AM »
Ps, are any of the discrepancies actual contradictions? Eg where there are two angels there is one, so no contradiction.

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18266
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46512 on: June 04, 2023, 11:01:00 AM »
You would need to cross-examine the witnesses and see if their stories agree. Both Matthew's and John's accounts say that a woman grabbed Jesus when he appeared to her, that Jesus referred to his disciples as his 'brethren', and that he appeared to them in Galilee. The discrepancies, such as whether it was by a lake or up a mountain in Galilee, point to them being independent from each other. Luke and John agree that Simon went to the tomb on hearing the womens' message and that Jesus appeared to the disciples in Jerusalem while they were together. Luke and John also mention that Jesus invited them to touch him to show he was real, and that he ate fish in front of them. Just a few pointers.

Spud

How's this for a pointer: don't believe everything you read, and especially so if you're reading accounts from antiquity that have no provenence, make fantastical claims and are indistinguishable from fiction.

Maeght

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5680
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46513 on: June 04, 2023, 11:42:12 AM »
You would need to cross-examine the witnesses and see if their stories agree. Both Matthew's and John's accounts say that a woman grabbed Jesus when he appeared to her, that Jesus referred to his disciples as his 'brethren', and that he appeared to them in Galilee. The discrepancies, such as whether it was by a lake or up a mountain in Galilee, point to them being independent from each other. Luke and John agree that Simon went to the tomb on hearing the womens' message and that Jesus appeared to the disciples in Jerusalem while they were together. Luke and John also mention that Jesus invited them to touch him to show he was real, and that he ate fish in front of them. Just a few pointers.

We don't know who the gospel writers are and where their information came from. There is no reason to assume that any of the accounts are accurate.

Spud

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7138
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46514 on: June 04, 2023, 02:54:54 PM »
Gordon and Maeght,

If the supernatural elements of the gospels were removed you would quite happily accept them as historical, I think.  The supernatural elements are clouding your minds so that you ignore, for example, my points above which demonstrate witness reliability, focussing instead on irrelevant points like you don't know who wrote it.

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18266
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46515 on: June 04, 2023, 03:14:37 PM »
Gordon and Maeght,

If the supernatural elements of the gospels were removed you would quite happily accept them as historical, I think.  The supernatural elements are clouding your minds so that you ignore, for example, my points above which demonstrate witness reliability, focussing instead on irrelevant points like you don't know who wrote it.

Just no: you think wrongly.

The provenence of anything is always relevant, and never irrelevant, where the absence of any renders the 'gospels' unreliable and unverifiable, especially given the fantastical content.

Put simply, they are not a serious proposition and cannot be taken seriously. 
« Last Edit: June 04, 2023, 03:19:51 PM by Gordon »

Maeght

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5680
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46516 on: June 04, 2023, 03:45:53 PM »
Gordon and Maeght,

If the supernatural elements of the gospels were removed you would quite happily accept them as historical, I think.  The supernatural elements are clouding your minds so that you ignore, for example, my points above which demonstrate witness reliability, focussing instead on irrelevant points like you don't know who wrote it.

No. I would, as with much history, consider them as stories and not facts. You make judgements on how likely things are to have happened based on the nature of the sources and how many independent sources there are. Saying we don't know who wrote them and what their sources are because they are making claims. We don't know that they contain actual witness accounts.

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33187
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46517 on: June 05, 2023, 06:59:01 AM »
Spud

How's this for a pointer: don't believe everything you read, and especially so if you're reading accounts from antiquity that have no provenence, make fantastical claims and are indistinguishable from fiction.
No provenance.......positive assertion needing proof
Fantastical claims.....argument from incredulity?
Indistinguishable from fiction.....doesn't that apply to all claims?

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18266
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46518 on: June 05, 2023, 08:28:49 AM »
No provenance.......positive assertion needing proof
Fantastical claims.....argument from incredulity?
Indistinguishable from fiction.....doesn't that apply to all claims?

Don't be silly, Vlad - again.

The claim is Spud's, and by association yours. So, show us the provenance for the NT: who wrote it, when, and where, and explain how you guys have addressed the risks of mistakes or lies - hard to do in the absence of any substantive provenance.

Examples of the fantastical claims in the NT are, say, someone walking on water, say someone feeding thousands using only a packet of fish fingers and a Sunblest loaf, and say someone being dead but not remaining so - now I'd suggest that these claims could only be believed by someone whose personal incredulity had already won out over healthy scepticism. To doubt unsubstantantiated fantasical claims is not an example of personal incredulity, which you should know by now.

'Indistinguishable from fiction' applies to those elements that are clearly fantasical - see above. Hence if a write a story about walk up Byres Road in the west end of Glasgow and I describe the various streets I have to cross then that isn't fantastical, since it is factual. However if I go on to say that as I crossed Vinicombe Street I encountered a demon who said 'good afternoon' and then disappeared in a puff of smoke that would be fantastical and I expect, and hope, that you'd have difficulty accepting that claim on my word alone. 

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46519 on: June 05, 2023, 09:16:30 AM »
Gordon -
Have you addressed the risk of the New Testament being true?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Sebastian Toe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7719
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46520 on: June 05, 2023, 09:52:03 AM »
Gordon -
Have you addressed the risk of the New Testament being true?
Alan, have you addressed the risk of the Qur'an being true?
Or the Book if Mormon?
Or, any other religious texts?
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64327
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46521 on: June 05, 2023, 10:20:08 AM »
Gordon -
Have you addressed the risk of the New Testament being true?
What do you mean by risk here?

Maeght

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5680
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46522 on: June 05, 2023, 10:22:23 AM »
Gordon -
Have you addressed the risk of the New Testament being true?

Do you think someone can decide to believe what the Bible says just in case?

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46523 on: June 05, 2023, 10:51:16 AM »
Alan, have you addressed the risk of the Qur'an being true?
Or the Book if Mormon?
Or, any other religious texts?
Absolutely

That is why I am a Christian

(I have also addressed the risk of believing that everything came into existence from purposeless unguided forces)
« Last Edit: June 05, 2023, 10:54:09 AM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18266
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #46524 on: June 05, 2023, 11:02:20 AM »
Gordon -
Have you addressed the risk of the New Testament being true?

What risk?

In any event, it is those who assert the truth of these NT claims who have the burden of proof - and to date they haven't, or more likely they can't, satisfy that burden (although they do a good line in fallacies and magical thinking).