Searching for GOD...

[torridon]

Now that's something I've heard claimed but never seen outlined in any great detail.

I seem to remember advice to seek being given  and people coming back five minutes later with a nope,no God. Which to me betrays a lack of seriousness in the matter.

I think letting people do all the talking Nd then shaking your head not having added anything, a character flaw myself

This is a straw man argument.

[Gordon]

Here you are saying things exist because it's logical that they do. And yet when presented with the logic of the necessary entity you would no doubt argue that logic doesn't guarentee existence. That's if you even understand the logic and definitions. You guys are hopeless.

I take it you've had a fresh delivery of straw.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

That looks a bit like preemptive excuses to me.
How could anyone possibly know what amount of "needing to know" is enough?
Is there a measurement?
NTK units?

My question to you Seb is given that when you are asked for information you prefer to turn it round and get your interlocutor to provide it. Do you actually have any experience of seeking God?

[Stranger]

I'm aware people's journey out of Christianity is becoming a genre although I'd also like to see more of that for perusal and criticism on here . But certainly no one here seems to want to actually talk about seeking yet not finding.

Once again running away from the main point. I'll repeat it for you: "Why the hell should we put any effort into seeking anyway? What's the prima facie case for thinking that there is anything real to find? Why should we put any effort into trying to find something for which nobody can provide the slightest hint of objective evidence for? Yet another injustice if a god really exists."

[Stranger]

And yet when presented with the logic of the necessary entity...

When did that happen? As I recall you totally failed to provide logic that could even make the concept make sense. It's pretty much an argument that fails to find an answer to a difficult problem (why does stuff exist and is how it is), just gives up and introduces a logically incoherent, unexplained, apparently self-contradictory concept of a 'necessary entity'. The logical equivalent of '"This is hard, I dunno, it must be magic."   

[Maeght]

My question to you Seb is given that when you are asked for information you prefer to turn it round and get your interlocutor to provide it. Do you actually have any experience of seeking God?

I'm not really sure what is meant by seeking God. How can you seek something that you don't have a  belief in? I was exposed to Christianity growing up but never actually believed. How can I seek God?

[Sebastian Toe]

Do you actually have any experience of seeking God?

yes

So, back to my queries.........

[Walt Zingmatilder]

yes

Go on then.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I'm not really sure what is meant by seeking God. How can you seek something that you don't have a  belief in? I was exposed to Christianity growing up but never actually believed. How can I seek God?

I think if you are an agnostic or agnostic atheist you perhaps need to explore agnosticism. e.g. Do you want to know one way or another or if you are hap5⁵py with agnosticism, why are you happy with it. Do you actually have ownership of your agnosticism or is it inherited?

[Maeght]

I think if you are an agnostic or agnostic atheist you perhaps need to explore agnosticism. e.g. Do you want to know one way or another or if you are hap5⁵py with agnosticism, why are you happy with it. Do you actually have ownership of your agnosticism or is it inherited?

I'm an atheist, in that I have no belief in God or gods. I'm interested in what people believe and why, hence my coming on here and being on the old BBC forum years ago. I think the question of agnosticism depends on the claims being made - whether it is possible to know that a God or god exists depends on what is meant by God or gods. Regarding the origins or my atheism - well, as I say, I grew up as a cultural Christian but never really had any actual belief, just went through the rituals and acted in as if I believed because it just seemed to be the default position, that everyone did and I didn't really think about it. When I realised that not everyone did believe I was able to recognise that I didn't actually believe and to just stop acting as if I did. I've never had any angst or doubts about this. I have never had any spiritual experiences. I see the Bible stories as most likely a product of human imagination and interpretation and to be expressions of beliefs and hopes rather than anything divine. The only thing that over the years made wonder was the idea that the early Christians believed so strongly that they accepted martyrdom - but have looked more into that I know now that there is little evidence that this actually is what happened and even if it did in one or two instances then I know now that people do extreme things based on faith but that that doesn't mean that the faith is accurate.
 
I am interested in many things and try to expand my knowledge all the time - both religious and non religious topics.

Not sure if that answers your questions, but what do you mean when you talk about seeking God?

One extra thing - I do tend to take things fairly literally and don't really understand religious or spiritual talk/language or arty talk. For example, yesterday I heard someone on the radio talking about their music and they said something like how they think about infinity all the time and how they can address this with their music. What?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

But clearly, he does.  Some people seek, but do not find.  If what you claim were true, then there would be no atheists in this world.  If there really were a benevolent God, then he would answer all prayers, not just those of selected individuals such as yourself.

I don't think that necessarily follows since the belief is that it is a test of faith - so if it was obvious that there was a benevolent god, there would be no test. I also think abstract concepts and descriptions such as "benevolent" are judged and interpreted subjectively. What one person considers as "benevolence" would not be judged to be benevolent by someone else.

And while some people pray for a specific thing and conclude god is fiction if they do not get it or god exists if they think their request was granted, there are other ways to approach prayer and worship. For example, some people pray to god for the patience to endure difficult times or to express gratitude that their situation is not worse than it currently is or to gain peace of mind - and if the result of the prayer is that they feel more able to cope with their circumstances or find some happiness in a difficult situation, it's not surprising that their faith in god is sustained. 

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

Can you expand on this. What specifically is the motoring analogy referring to? For goodness sake let us judge your metaphors to see whether they are Arrant shit, Hillside.

Yes – some of the moral injunctions in the texts you think to be “holy” are grotesque. If you want to compare human behaviour with a driving test, you cannot just pretend that these texts and the Highway Code are analogous too.   

But that rather suggests, particular as it's you Hillside, that each is virtually the same with the names changed.

And speaking of your propensity for straw men...

It suggests no such thing – what it actually suggests is that if you want to attempt a dodgy analogy with a driving test, one of the multiple problems with it is that there are many, often mutually contradictory equivalents of the Highway Code to be tested against.
 

That sounds more like the description of a commandment religion and an actual caricature of commandment religions.I don't see how since the supreme revelation of Christ. Of course if it hadn't been for a free will choice of humanity no rescue and reprieve would be necessary.

Wrong again. It merely says that if you follow the moral injunctions in the texts you think to be holy as written you’ll find yourself in some very dark places.

Oh, and “the supreme revelation of Christ” is just you trying to sneak in one of your faith claims as if it was a fact – the fallacy of reification in other words.   

I don't think your repugnance of that makes any difference of peoples repugnance to your turdpolishing.

Dishonest ad hom noted.

No it's a good metaphor and it discusses issues you have so far lacked the cohones to offer but a vague opinion your belief that ignorance as a type of argument not withstanding.

Just to be clear – this is the king of avoidance accusing the person who always justifies his opinions with arguments (that you then run away from) of lacking the “cohones” (sic) to address issues?

Could this be the day that irony finally died?

I was speaking of God taking steps. Once again with gusto, Jesus has reversed ''Adam's sin'' or if you prefer historic, future blighting sin.

Admittedly your semi-literacy often makes it hard to understand what you’re trying to say (I’ve suggested before now that you at least read through your drafts before hitting “post”, albeit to no avail) but your “He would be if had not given taken steps to cater for regret” (Reply #46764 ) implies to me the “regret” of God's creations rather than God's own regret. How could a god of the omnis regret anything after all? 

In any case, even if I take your theo-gibberish at face value why would one of your God’s “steps” be to give brain cancer to babies, whether or not "He" regretted it doing it after the event?

[Stranger]

I don't think that necessarily follows since the belief is that it is a test of faith - so if it was obvious that there was a benevolent god, there would be no test.

But what's the point? Why is faith (in the sense of belief without solid evidence or sound reasoning) at all virtuous? I'd be perfectly happy to just say "I don't have any, can we get on with it now!?"

I also think abstract concepts and descriptions such as "benevolent" are judged and interpreted subjectively. What one person considers as "benevolence" would not be judged to be benevolent by someone else.

Whereas I'm sure there are some grey areas on the borderline, from what I've read of studies on the subject, there is a reasonable degree of agreement on moral questions (as long as you avoid controversial local issues). I mean, I think that inflicting unnecessary suffering is largely considered to be anything but benevolent, whereas showing kindness and generosity towards those less fortunate is largely considered benevolent.

And while some people pray for a specific thing and conclude god is fiction if they do not get it or god exists if they think their request was granted...

Not sure many people are that simplistic about it (I'll grant there might be some), but there does seem to be something perverse about a god that will grant selected, sometimes trivial, requests to some people, some of the time, and yet do nothing about the big problems. Did you see the video NS posted in #46783 (watch all the way through)? Even more stark is that Alan seems to think that his god will help him find his contact lens (#23889) and yet does nothing about childhood cancer.

What exactly are people supposed to make of this? 

[Sebastian Toe]

Go on then.

So, back to my queries.....

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I'm an atheist, in that I have no belief in God or gods. I'm interested in what people believe and why, hence my coming on here and being on the old BBC forum years ago. I think the question of agnosticism depends on the claims being made - whether it is possible to know that a God or god exists depends on what is meant by God or gods. Regarding the origins or my atheism - well, as I say, I grew up as a cultural Christian but never really had any actual belief, just went through the rituals and acted in as if I believed because it just seemed to be the default position, that everyone did and I didn't really think about it. When I realised that not everyone did believe I was able to recognise that I didn't actually believe and to just stop acting as if I did. I've never had any angst or doubts about this. I have never had any spiritual experiences. I see the Bible stories as most likely a product of human imagination and interpretation and to be expressions of beliefs and hopes rather than anything divine. The only thing that over the years made wonder was the idea that the early Christians believed so strongly that they accepted martyrdom - but have looked more into that I know now that there is little evidence that this actually is what happened and even if it did in one or two instances then I know now that people do extreme things based on faith but that that doesn't mean that the faith is accurate.
 
I am interested in many things and try to expand my knowledge all the time - both religious and non religious topics.

Not sure if that answers your questions, but what do you mean when you talk about seeking God?

One extra thing - I do tend to take things fairly literally and don't really understand religious or spiritual talk/language or arty talk. For example, yesterday I heard someone on the radio talking about their music and they said something like how they think about infinity all the time and how they can address this with their music. What?

The funny thing about perusing you post with a view to deciding where I go next with it was a phrase you put in about "arty talk". It sounded a bit perjorative. What could you possibly have against artists I wondered.

[Maeght]

The funny thing about perusing you post with a view to deciding where I go next with it was a phrase you put in about "arty talk". It sounded a bit perjorative. What could you possibly have against artists I wondered.

I don't have anything against artists. I said I don't understand arty talk.

[ekim]

I've heard it suggested that it was a reference to Psalm 22 and was meant to be understood by those who heard it as being that. So the meaning was essentially the meaning of the Psalm. I heard it suggested that it was common practice at that time to refer to a Psalm by it's first line.

I could see that Psalm as an indicator of the journey of a human towards Heaven but not that Jesus was God.  Similarly in Mark 14 35:36 Shortly before his crucifixion, he prayed to his God for his impending destiny to be averted.  I doubt whether a God would pray to himself.

[Maeght]

I could see that Psalm as an indicator of the journey of a human towards Heaven but not that Jesus was God.  Similarly in Mark 14 35:36 Shortly before his crucifixion, he prayed to his God for his impending destiny to be averted.  I doubt whether a God would pray to himself.

I'm not familiar with the Psalm but the person said that the conclusion of the Psalm was what was being indicted by Jesus saying the first line. Not a prayer to his God but a message to the world.

[Dicky Underpants]

I'm aware people's journey out of Christianity is becoming a genre although I'd also like to see more of that for perusal and criticism on here . But certainly no one here seems to want to actually talk about seeking yet not finding.

Bollocks! I've mentioned it often enough. So have a number of others. But does one have to go through the whole wild goose chase (as A.N. Wilson called it) just to find out it is in fact - a wild goose chase?  Well maybe those that have done can be doubly certain, but they might also have spent their time better elsewhere. However, I must have been one of those who seemed 'programmed' to seek.

[Nearly Sane]

Bollocks! I've mentioned it often enough. So have a number of others. But does one have to go through the whole wild goose chase (as A.N. Wilson called it) just to find out it is in fact - a wild goose chase?  Well maybe those that have done can be doubly certain, but they might also have spent their time better elsewhere. However, I must have been one of those who seemed 'programmed' to seek.

We probably have a lower number of 'seekers' than we used to - both Floo and Rhiannon went into detail about their 'quests', as you note you too have done. At the same time, there have been those with faith who talk of ot happening without any seeking, or indeed somewgat oddly in trying to avoid a god - as best covered perhaps in Francis Thompson's The Hound of Heaven.

[Dicky Underpants]

We probably have a lower number of 'seekers' than we used to - both Floo and Rhiannon went into detail about their 'quests', as you note you too have done. At the same time, there have been those with faith who talk of ot happening without any seeking, or indeed somewgat oddly in trying to avoid a god - as best covered perhaps in Francis Thompson's The Hound of Heaven.

Hound of Heaven - never could sympathise with that. Really dislike that poem: in fact it strikes me as extremely pretentious . George Herbert's "Love Bade Me Welcome" evokes similar feelings, compounded by the fact that he words he used often sound gibberish.
However, I can't deny the deep-rooted drive which I seemed to feel to find some ultimate meaning in life - call that a search for God or whatever. I don't feel that any more. I'd certainly like to feel that there is some ultimate meaning beyond what we each give to our lives, but I'm pretty certain there isn't any.

[Nearly Sane]

Hound of Heaven - never could sympathise with that. Really dislike that poem: in fact it strikes me as extremely pretentious . George Herbert's "Love Bade Me Welcome" evokes similar feelings, compounded by the fact that he words he used often sound gibberish.
However, I can't deny the deep-rooted drive which I seemed to feel to find some ultimate meaning in life - call that a search for God or whatever. I don't feel that any more. I'd certainly like to feel that there is some ultimate meaning beyond what we each give to our lives, but I'm pretty certain there isn't any.

The premise of the OP was, of course, that people were lying, and were 'hiding' from this god rather as The Hound of Heaven portrays. Alan Burns has often expressed his agreement with it, though then backs away when it's pointed out that it means he's saying everyone is lying.

With the idea that you have to 'search', he's then contradicting the OP.   

[bluehillside Retd.]

NS,

The premise of the OP was, of course, that people were lying, and were 'hiding' from this god rather as The Hound of Heaven portrays. Alan Burns has often expressed his agreement with it, though then backs away when it's pointed out that it means he's saying everyone is lying.

With the idea that you have to 'search', he's then contradicting the OP.

Just to add that another iteration of the same drivel is Vlad's "goddodging" use of the begging the question fallacy. 

[Nearly Sane]

NS,

Just to add that another iteration of the same drivel is Vlad's "goddodging" use of the begging the question fallacy.

Yes, Vlad positing that people have not 'searched' and yet are deliberately 'goddodging' is a blatant contradictiom.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

But what's the point? Why is faith (in the sense of belief without solid evidence or sound reasoning) at all virtuous? I'd be perfectly happy to just say "I don't have any, can we get on with it now!?"

Whereas I'm sure there are some grey areas on the borderline, from what I've read of studies on the subject, there is a reasonable degree of agreement on moral questions (as long as you avoid controversial local issues). I mean, I think that inflicting unnecessary suffering is largely considered to be anything but benevolent, whereas showing kindness and generosity towards those less fortunate is largely considered benevolent.

Not sure many people are that simplistic about it (I'll grant there might be some), but there does seem to be something perverse about a god that will grant selected, sometimes trivial, requests to some people, some of the time, and yet do nothing about the big problems. Did you see the video NS posted in #46783 (watch all the way through)? Even more stark is that Alan seems to think that his god will help him find his contact lens (#23889) and yet does nothing about childhood cancer.

What exactly are people supposed to make of this? 

I don't know about it being virtuous to have faith - it is a component of religious belief and therefore seems to be a requirement in the religious experience. I also don't know what it would take to convince people to believe in an omni creator without employing faith. Just because you come across some kind of miraculous unexplainable event, why would that convince anyone of an omni creator?

Faith just seems to be an aspect of being human and some people are more inclined to have it than others. It's often linked having certain beliefs about morality. Having conviction in something is often considered to be laudable and people are often urged to 'have the courage of their convictions". So I can see why the idea of faith is appealing to some / many people. And religious faith often works for people because they feel they have a personal relationship and they feel gratitude, so it's hardly surprising that despite any struggles and misery in their lives e.g. their baby having brain cancer, some religious people are still able to feel grateful for the positives in their lives precisely because they see all the worse suffering that others may be enduring that they themselves are not subjected to.

There does not seem to be broad agreement on the word 'benevolence' since clearly there are lots of people who think that whatever suffering there is in the world, it is not necessary for a benevolent god to remove it all in order to be considered benevolent. You're entitled to make that your criteria for benevolence. I didn't see NS's video but understand that a god who helps find contact lenses but doesn't address some of the tragic situations in the world might not be very appealing.