Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3750109 times)

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #47175 on: June 30, 2023, 06:29:41 PM »
AB,

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What is it within the reconstituted lump of star debris which concludes? ... which believes? ... which shows arrogance? ...which claims responsibility? ... which postulates?

We’ve been around this loop many times already – whether there a comprehensive answer to that, a partial answer or no answer at all is entirely irrelevant: none of them would tell you anything at all about your unqualified speculation “god”.

Not that you care a jot, but the argument from incredulity you’re attempting here is still a fallacy no matter how many time you try it. 

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The egotism in in the presumption that this can all be done without the need for anything other than physically controlled reactions in material entities.

What “egotism” do you think following reason and evidence engenders and why?

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Can you not have the humility to accept that our mental capabilities are evidence that we are the consequence and reflection of a superior intelligence beyond human understanding?

You have it arse-backwards still. Humility comes from understanding and accepting that we’re just an infinitesimally small and inconsequential speck of existence in an unfathomably vast and improbably complex universe. By contrast, it take huge arrogance to conclude instead that we’re actually specially made in the image of the creator of that universe who then also cares about us so much such that “He” wants us to behave according to “His” written rules.   
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Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #47176 on: June 30, 2023, 06:35:13 PM »
What is it within the reconstituted lump of star debris which concludes? ... which believes? ... which shows arrogance? ...which claims responsibility? ... which postulates?

The egotism in in the presumption that this can all be done without the need for anything other than physically controlled reactions in material entities.

Can you not have the humility to accept that our mental capabilities are evidence that we are the consequence and reflection of a superior intelligence beyond human understanding?

Humility? Does thinking we are the creation of a superior intelligence show humility? We are special don't you know ....

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #47177 on: June 30, 2023, 09:26:35 PM »
The egotism comes from the belief that brain cells generated and driven by random unguided forces are capable of figuring out that there is no need for God.

As usual, you manage to get things entirely the wrong way round.  Science succeeds by following the evidence, not by following one's ego.  This implies the humility to accept being taught by the evidence, which may be contrary to what we would like to believe.

Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #47178 on: June 30, 2023, 09:29:24 PM »
What is it within the reconstituted lump of star debris which concludes? ... which believes? ... which shows arrogance? ...which claims responsibility? ... which postulates?

It's not my argument, so I don't have to postulate.

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The egotism in in the presumption that this can all be done without the need for anything other than physically controlled reactions in material entities.

How is that 'arrogance'? It might be wrong, it might be incomplete, but it's not postulated to self-aggrandise, it's not in any way setting us up as having achieved anything spectacular or been chosen or put on a pedestal, it says something happened to us. It could be put forward as many, many things if you think the conclusion is incorrect, but even if you think it's incorrect you still can't get from that to arrogance.

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Can you not have the humility to accept that our mental capabilities are evidence that we are the consequence and reflection of a superior intelligence beyond human understanding?

How is thinking that we're specially chosen to have that trait somehow less arrogant than thinking we're the lucky recipient of provident circumstances? It's not a lack of humility that stops me accepting the idea we're a god's super-duper project, it's a lack of any basis for accepting the claim.

Can you have the humility to accept that just because it's inconceivable to your limited capacity doesn't mean that our limited capacity copies your limitations? Or would it be arrogant of me to assume that one possible reason your arguments aren't convincing is that they're wrong?

O.
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #47179 on: July 01, 2023, 12:24:59 AM »

What “egotism” do you think following reason and evidence engenders and why?

I have yet to receive a feasible explanation for how the process of following reason and evidence and drawing verifiable conclusions can result from sub conscious brain activity emerging into your conscious awareness.  The presumption that it can all happen without the God given freedom to control your own thought processes is elevating the random forces of nature to be somewhat superior to God's creative power.
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Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #47180 on: July 01, 2023, 12:43:57 AM »
I have yet to receive a feasible explanation for how the process of following reason and evidence and drawing verifiable conclusions can result from sub conscious brain activity emerging into your conscious awareness. 
I've yet to see a feasible explanation as to how the process of a soul which doesn't reside in this universe, stays in a timeless realm, is able to attach itself to one individual , read the brain patterns of said individual, translate and understand them in real time and then somehow manipulates the physical brain to follow commands.
I've also yet to see feasible explanations as to where how and when these souls are "created" how they attach to a person, when they attach to a person, how they exist after death etc.
There's more, so much more but for now .....
Would you as the resident forum soul expert care to share?
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torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #47181 on: July 01, 2023, 06:47:23 AM »
I have yet to receive a feasible explanation for how the process of following reason and evidence and drawing verifiable conclusions can result from sub conscious brain activity emerging into your conscious awareness.  The presumption that it can all happen without the God given freedom to control your own thought processes is elevating the random forces of nature to be somewhat superior to God's creative power.

You're not making any sense.  If you believe in God, then these 'random forces of nature' are part of God's creation anyway.  And it is still unclear what this has to do with egotism.  It is theism that is shot through with anthropocentric 'it's all about us'.  This foolish pride blinds us to thinking clearly and objectively about the world and our place in it.

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #47182 on: July 01, 2023, 07:16:00 AM »
I have yet to receive a feasible explanation for how the process of following reason and evidence and drawing verifiable conclusions can result from sub conscious brain activity emerging into your conscious awareness.  The presumption that it can all happen without the God given freedom to control your own thought processes is elevating the random forces of nature to be somewhat superior to God's creative power.

You seem unable to post anything that isn't fallacy-ridden, and the above is a fine example.

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #47183 on: July 01, 2023, 08:20:12 AM »
I have yet to receive a feasible explanation for how the process of following reason and evidence and drawing verifiable conclusions can result from sub conscious brain activity emerging into your conscious awareness.

"This is 'ard to explain, I dunno, it must be magic."    ::)

The presumption that it can all happen without the God given freedom...

Begging the question. You have given us no reason whatsoever to believe that this 'God' of which you speak is anything but your imaginary friend.

...to control your own thought processes...

More gibberish. Yet again Alan the Illogical, how can we possibly control our own thought process? Do you think we can exercise control without a thought process? Do you understand what an infinite regress is?

...is elevating the random forces of nature to be somewhat superior to God's creative power.

Begging the question again.   ::)

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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #47184 on: July 01, 2023, 03:04:00 PM »
Stranger,

Quote
Do you understand what an infinite regress is?

I wonder whether at some level AB is at least dimly aware of the infinite regress problem that his “...to control your own thought processes...” gives him, which is why to get off that hook he’s had to subscribe to the (very bad) idea of a “soul” that supposedly operates outside such logical constraints. It’s a notion conjured up just to support an a priori belief, and he may as well claim “magic” for all the explanatory use it has but he seems to be in thrall to it nonetheless.     
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #47185 on: July 01, 2023, 11:23:09 PM »
Stranger,

I wonder whether at some level AB is at least dimly aware of the infinite regress problem that his “...to control your own thought processes...” gives him, which is why to get off that hook he’s had to subscribe to the (very bad) idea of a “soul” that supposedly operates outside such logical constraints. It’s a notion conjured up just to support an a priori belief, and he may as well claim “magic” for all the explanatory use it has but he seems to be in thrall to it nonetheless.     
I am fully aware that an infinite regress for the concept of conscious control is the inevitable conclusion derived from the materialistic, time related cause and effect scenario.
But the problem with this is that it allows no form of control - just inevitable reactions to past events over which we can have no control - we cannot control the past.
So in this scenario there can be no concept of reaching verifiable conclusions - because in order to reach such conclusions you need conscious control  - not uncontrolled reaction.

The obvious reality is that we do have the conscious control which is essential to reach verifiable conclusions.

You claim that such control is a logical impossibility.

But it is a reality because we do have the ability to consciously control our thoughts to reach consciously verified conclusions.

I know that this does not fit well with the concept of conscious awareness emerging from material reactions which have already occurred.  So you need to re asses your basic premiss that we are all constrained to exist and perform in a time related, materialistic cause and effect scenario.

You are the controller - not the past.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2023, 11:34:43 PM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #47186 on: July 02, 2023, 07:13:45 AM »
I am fully aware that an infinite regress for the concept of conscious control is the inevitable conclusion derived from the materialistic, time related cause and effect scenario.
But the problem with this is that it allows no form of control - just inevitable reactions to past events over which we can have no control - we cannot control the past.
So in this scenario there can be no concept of reaching verifiable conclusions - because in order to reach such conclusions you need conscious control  - not uncontrolled reaction.

The obvious reality is that we do have the conscious control which is essential to reach verifiable conclusions.

You claim that such control is a logical impossibility.

But it is a reality because we do have the ability to consciously control our thoughts to reach consciously verified conclusions.

I know that this does not fit well with the concept of conscious awareness emerging from material reactions which have already occurred.  So you need to re asses your basic premiss that we are all constrained to exist and perform in a time related, materialistic cause and effect scenario.

You are the controller - not the past.

So much for the everyday common experience.  However we have learned deeper insights into how this works from philosophy and science.  The feeling of control, and of being a self, these are all conscious perceptions, and we do not control our consciousness; but rather 'we' are a product of it.  The choices we make in the present moment are a direct function of the factors in the past that led to those choices.  Were this not true, humans would have long ago gone extinct.

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #47187 on: July 02, 2023, 09:00:19 AM »
I am fully aware that an infinite regress for the concept of conscious control is the inevitable conclusion derived from the materialistic, time related cause and effect scenario.

So why has it taken you so long to say anything about it? The infinite regress has nothing to to with being materialistic and minds are inevitably time related. You simply can't have a thought process at all without time.

But the problem with this is that it allows no form of control...

Yet again the dishonest attempt to redefine the word 'control'. Control does not mean your impossible version of 'freedom' and if you continue with your lie that it does, then control is impossible.

...just inevitable reactions to past events over which we can have no control - we cannot control the past.

More of the mindless repetition. The person the past has made us can do as it wishes and exercise control.

So in this scenario there can be no concept of reaching verifiable conclusions - because in order to reach such conclusions you need conscious control  - not uncontrolled reaction.

Utterly baseless assertion.

The obvious reality is that we do have the conscious control which is essential to reach verifiable conclusions.

It's not in the least bit obvious. This is nothing more than another baseless assertion.

You claim that such control is a logical impossibility.

In the way you mean it, it is, for all the reasons that have been endlessly explained to you and you ignore.

But it is a reality because we do have the ability to consciously control our thoughts to reach consciously verified conclusions.

Another baseless assertion.

I know that this does not fit well with the concept of conscious awareness emerging from material reactions which have already occurred.  So you need to re asses your basic premiss that we are all constrained to exist and perform in a time related, materialistic cause and effect scenario.

The reference to materialism is still irrelevant, any non-material aspect to minds wouldn't help overcome the infinite regress inherent in your nonsense idea that we can consciously control our thought process.

You are the controller - not the past.

You are the controller. However, you are what the past has made you.

So, basically, all we have here is a string of utterly baseless assertion and a dishonest attempt to redefine the word 'control'.
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #47188 on: July 02, 2023, 09:51:39 AM »
So much for the everyday common experience.  However we have learned deeper insights into how this works from philosophy and science.  The feeling of control, and of being a self, these are all conscious perceptions, and we do not control our consciousness; but rather 'we' are a product of it.  The choices we make in the present moment are a direct function of the factors in the past that led to those choices.  Were this not true, humans would have long ago gone extinct.
So I ask once again -
How does a feeling of control actually exert the real control needed to reach all these verified conclusions?
« Last Edit: July 02, 2023, 09:56:22 AM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #47189 on: July 02, 2023, 09:55:53 AM »

The person the past has made us can do as it wishes and exercise control.

This makes no sense at all.
Control does not take place in the past.
We are consciously aware of the past, but we are not controlled by it.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2023, 10:04:43 AM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

jeremyp

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #47190 on: July 02, 2023, 10:15:50 AM »
So, a quick side step, avoiding any direct answer.  As expected.

Considering how well Christians claim to know God, they are remarkably reluctant to describe him/her/it to us.
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Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #47191 on: July 02, 2023, 10:56:38 AM »
So I ask once again -
How does a feeling of control actually exert the real control needed to reach all these verified conclusions?

Logic is just something other people talk about to you, isn't it?

You have provided no reason whatsoever to think that what you call 'real control' exists at all. Neither have you shown that it would be required to reach "verified conclusions". In other words, you are trying to just assert imaginary problems into existence.

This makes no sense at all.
Control does not take place in the past.

I didn't say it did.

We are consciously aware of the past, but we are not controlled by it.

Mindless mantra.   ::)

Yet again, if you took some time to study critical thinking and logic, then you wouldn't fall into all these obvious fallacies and nonsensical assertions. Why can't you be bothered to do so?
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #47192 on: July 02, 2023, 12:33:42 PM »
Logic is just something other people talk about to you, isn't it?

Yet again, if you took some time to study critical thinking and logic, then you wouldn't fall into all these obvious fallacies and nonsensical assertions. Why can't you be bothered to do so?
I fail to see how critical thinking and logic can just drop out of reactions to past events which are beyond my conscious control. I need to use my conscious freedom to contemplate what exists in my conscious awareness in order to reach consciously verified conclusions.

You need to get to grips with the reality that our conscious awareness is not just something which emerges from material reactions which are defined by the laws of physics.  Our conscious awareness defines who we are.  It defines what we do.  It determines our ultimate destiny.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2023, 09:43:59 PM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #47193 on: July 02, 2023, 12:37:52 PM »
Considering how well Christians claim to know God, they are remarkably reluctant to describe him/her/it to us.
Have you ever visited a Christian bookshop?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #47194 on: July 02, 2023, 01:27:01 PM »
In fail to see how critical thinking and logic can just drop out of reactions to past events which are beyond my conscious control.

They don't "just drop out of reactions to past events". They require a sophisticated process of learning and decision making.

I need to use my conscious freedom to contemplate what exists in my conscious awareness in order to reach consciously verified conclusions.

Meaningless, hand-waving assertion.  ::)

You need to get to grips with the reality...



...that our conscious awareness is not just something which emerges from material reactions which are defined by the laws of physics.

More dishonest misrepresentation. You have a logical problem that is completely independent of the laws of physics. Misrepresentation of my argument is lying. And, of course, your claim is nothing but an argument from personal incredulity fallacy.

Are we just going to go round the whole of your dismally illogical and pointless script all over again, or do you have anything new to say, or are you actually prepared to engage with counterarguments for a change?
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #47195 on: July 02, 2023, 02:07:51 PM »
AB,

Quote
I am fully aware that an infinite regress for the concept of conscious control is the inevitable conclusion derived from the materialistic, time related cause and effect scenario.

Then if you are aware of the problem of infinite regress how would you propose that a decision-making “soul” would not itself by your “reasoning” also require a mini-soul to do its thinking and so on forever?   

Quote
But the problem with this is that it allows no form of control - just inevitable reactions to past events over which we can have no control - we cannot control the past.

Why do you think that’s a problem, aside that is from the problem of holing below the waterline your preference for how you would like decision-making to work to satisfy your religious beliefs?

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So in this scenario there can be no concept of reaching verifiable conclusions - because in order to reach such conclusions you need conscious control  - not uncontrolled reaction.

Given how often your mistake here has been explained to you without rebuttal, at what point should we conclude that you’re deliberately lying now? Yet again: memories emerge from the sub-conscience, and decision-making is the evaluation of them at a different level of awareness. All of this though can happen within a logic-and evidence-based paradigm of a materialistic system. The conclusions thus obtained are generally verified by benchmarking against real world experience – the medicine cures or it doesn’t; the ‘plane flies or it doesn’t etc.       

You on the other hand junk all that reason and evidence in favour of an a priori set of faith beliefs, that you then seek to justify with an “it’s magic innit?” “soul” as if that explains anything at all. 

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The obvious reality is that we do have the conscious control which is essential to reach verifiable conclusions.

I’ve schooled you on this error countless times already. Calling something “obvious” does not mean you’ve somehow justified the claim with an argument. If you want to do more than just assert a logic- and evidence-denying “magic soul” to be real then, finally, you need to address the epic logical problems that claim gives you. 

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You claim that such control is a logical impossibility.

Yes, and rightly so for the reasons that keep being given to you and that you always run away from.

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But it is a reality because we do have the ability to consciously control our thoughts to reach consciously verified conclusions.

Again: mindless assertions are not arguments.

Try again.

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I know that this does not fit well with the concept of conscious awareness emerging from material reactions which have already occurred.

That’s right, it doesn’t. That’s why your utterly daft "concept" is not just wrong but also preposterously wrong. 

Quote
So you need to re asses your basic premiss that we are all constrained to exist and perform in a time related, materialistic cause and effect scenario.

No, YOU need to “re assess” (sic) the unrelentingly irrational and dishonest idiocy you keep peddling here with not even the attempt at addressing the arguments that explain clearly why it’s irrational and dishonest.   

What are you so frightened of that you will never even try to do that?

Quote
You are the controller - not the past.

“You/I” can in practice only exist as a function of the past because decision-making cannot happen in a supposed “present” without invoking “it’s magic innit?” to get you off the hook of the fundamental logical contradiction that gives you.

Try at least to understand and remember this the next time you’re tempted to post the same dishonest idiocy you’ve tried so often here before.   
« Last Edit: July 02, 2023, 02:48:46 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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God

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #47196 on: July 02, 2023, 02:11:49 PM »
So I ask once again -
How does a feeling of control actually exert the real control needed to reach all these verified conclusions?

Sensory inputs are gathered through networks of sensor neurons and our brains deal with those inputs resulting in actions mediated through networks of motor neurons. We don't have access to all the millions of biochemical cellular interactions involved in this.  However our minds create a stream of consciousness reflecting a narrative of what is going on both on the outside and in the inside.  We don't have access to the 'real control' as you put it, but rather we experience the feeling of there being a 'me' in the midst of all that activity, a 'me' which is exerting apparent control. 

Why does the mind work this way ? For an analogy, imagine the introduction of a self driving taxi some time in the future.  My bet would be that a taxi that featured a hologrammatic 'driver' that was apparently driving the vehicle would get more customers than one that didn't.  If you can understand that, then you are some way to understanding why our minds have evolved to create such a strong sense of self, something akiin that hologrammatic taxi driver, apparently in control.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #47197 on: July 02, 2023, 04:03:58 PM »
AB,

Quote
Have you ever visited a Christian bookshop?

Yes – turns out all they sell is fiction though.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #47198 on: July 02, 2023, 04:53:08 PM »
AB,

Yes – turns out all they sell is fiction though.
So your atheism goes a bit beyond a mere lack of belief then.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #47199 on: July 02, 2023, 05:03:27 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
So your atheism goes a bit beyond a mere lack of belief then.

No.
"Don't make me come down there."

God