Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3750512 times)

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #47225 on: July 03, 2023, 12:26:06 PM »
Because it's manifestly not true. We have computers that are capable of following logical paths to reach verified conclusions, but I suspect you'd at least hesitate to ascribe consciousness to them, so we know that it's not a requirement.

The computer is just an extension of the programmer's ability to exert conscious control (within the software design) in order to reach a consciously verified result.
The consciously driven power of the human programmer is essential - without it the program would not exist.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #47226 on: July 03, 2023, 12:35:06 PM »
AB,

Yes, we know.

And this despite the countless times the logical impossibility of your magical fairy tale alternative has been explained to you?

Oh, and as in my last post I explained to you (yet again) where you go wrong why have you just ignored all that (yet again) as if nothing had been explained to you? Just repeating the same long-since falsified assertions over and over again like a broken speak-your-weight machine no matter the falsifying arguments just makes you look idiotic. Or delusional. Or dishonest. Or some combination of these things.   

If you genuinely think your faith beliefs have any substance at all and you want other people to agree with you about that, why would you adopt such a discrediting approach rather than support your case by trying at least to produce rebuttal arguments of you own? Just throwing about terms like “obvious” and “flawed” laced with multiple logical fallacies serves only to make you look foolish (at best) rather than persuasive.         
Why do you continue to quote flawed logic to deny the reality that we have the power to consciously drive our own thought processes in order to reach consciously verified conclusions?

It is not impossible - because we can all do it.

Are you afraid to face up to the reality that we are personally accountable for our thoughts, words and deeds?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #47227 on: July 03, 2023, 12:42:31 PM »
Why do you continue to quote flawed logic...

Why are you incapable of pointing out even the first hint of any flaw?

...to deny the reality that we have the power to consciously drive our own thought processes in order to reach consciously verified conclusions?

Do you really not understand that you can't order reality around? This is not reality. This is nothing but your faith based fantasy, and we have the logic that proves it. You can also easily see the problem yourself if you bother to do some honest introspection.

It is not impossible - because we can all do it.

Drivel.

Are you afraid to face up to the reality...

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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #47228 on: July 03, 2023, 12:50:43 PM »
AB,

Quote
Why do you continue to quote flawed logic to deny the reality that we have the power to consciously drive our own thought processes in order to reach consciously verified conclusions?

FFS. You’ve shown no flaw in the logic that undoes you and it’s not “reality” for the reasons I set out for your clearly in Reply #47215 and that you – yet again – have just ignored.

I’m beginning to wonder now whether you’re a real person or just some sort of basic algorithm programmed endlessly to pump out idiocies and unqualified assertions no matter the arguments that falsify you.   

Quote
It is not impossible - because we can all do it.

Like we can all touch our keyboards you mean?

No we can’t. We can’t for the reasons that keep being given to you and that you just ignore. 

Quote
Are you afraid to face up to the reality that we are personally accountable for our thoughts, words and deeds?

The only person who’s afraid here it seems is you – so afraid you’ll never, ever address the arguments you’re given because, presumably, you’re terrified at the prospect of finding out that you’ve invested so much of your life in utter bullshit. 
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God

Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #47229 on: July 03, 2023, 02:07:57 PM »
The computer is just an extension of the programmer's ability to exert conscious control (within the software design) in order to reach a consciously verified result.

Not necessarily. They can, and do, set machine learning that is independent of the builders.

Quote
The consciously driven power of the human programmer is essential - without it the program would not exist.

But that wasn't the claim.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #47230 on: July 03, 2023, 05:27:29 PM »

Like we can all touch our keyboards you mean?

Your analogy just confirms the point I am making.
The result of the action is that the key is depressed.  The finger exerts control over the keyboard.  The exact mechanics of how the finger interacts with the key is irrelevant - you can't claim the finger is not in control because it does not touch the keyboard.

Similarly the conscious control we have over our thoughts cannot be denied just because we can't envisage how it occurs.

The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #47231 on: July 03, 2023, 05:35:58 PM »
Your analogy just confirms the point I am making.
The result of the action is that the key is depressed.  The finger exerts control over the keyboard.  The exact mechanics of how the finger interacts with the key is irrelevant - you can't claim the finger is not in control because it does not touch the keyboard.

Similarly the conscious control we have over our thoughts cannot be denied just because we can't envisage how it occurs.

Are you trying to make yourself look stupid? Fingers and keys do not involve an impossible infinite regress, neither do they conflict with our direct experience.

Your first sentence is totally and utterly absurd. Did you really misunderstand so profoundly or do you just not care any more and are just posting hasty nonsense that you can't even be bothered to think about?

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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #47232 on: July 03, 2023, 05:38:08 PM »
AB,

Quote
Your analogy just confirms the point I am making.
The result of the action is that the key is depressed.  The finger exerts control over the keyboard.  The exact mechanics of how the finger interacts with the key is irrelevant - you can't claim the finger is not in control because it does not touch the keyboard.

Similarly the conscious control we have over our thoughts cannot be denied just because we can't envisage how it occurs.

No it doesn't, and you’ve missed the point again. The point is an epistemic one: the result is that the key is depressed, but the explanation for how that happens (ie, that the key has been touched) is wrong. Similarly we all make decisions all the time and that process feels like it’s explained by our unfettered agency, but that simply cannot be the case for the reasons that have been explained to you countless times already without rebuttal.     

Let’s try at least to address the simple point of principle here shall we?

Do you agree that for most people who use keyboards the “obvious reality” is that their fingers actually touch the keys and therefore that, without examining them, the arguments for why they’re not doing that would appear to be “flawed”?

That is, can you see that at one workaday, colloquial level a reality is that they are touching the keys but that at the same time at a deeper, more reason- and evidence-based level of reality a different and more robust explanation entirely is available?

Forget your faith claims for now – as a basic proposition can you see how an “obvious” and useful type of reality and a more robust (albeit counter-instinctive) reality can exist at the same time?

A simple yes/no to this will be fine.   
« Last Edit: July 03, 2023, 06:54:11 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #47233 on: July 03, 2023, 10:54:23 PM »
AB,

No it doesn't, and you’ve missed the point again. The point is an epistemic one: the result is that the key is depressed, but the explanation for how that happens (ie, that the key has been touched) is wrong. Similarly we all make decisions all the time and that process feels like it’s explained by our unfettered agency, but that simply cannot be the case for the reasons that have been explained to you countless times already without rebuttal.     

Let’s try at least to address the simple point of principle here shall we?

Do you agree that for most people who use keyboards the “obvious reality” is that their fingers actually touch the keys and therefore that, without examining them, the arguments for why they’re not really touching the keys at all would appear to be “flawed”?

That is, can you see that at one workaday, colloquial level a reality is that they are touching the keys but that at the same time at a deeper, reason- and evidence-based level of reality a different and more robust explanation entirely is available?

Forget your faith claims for now – as a basic proposition can you see how an “obvious” and useful type of reality and a more robust (albeit counter-instinctive) reality can exist at the same time?

A simple yes/no to this will be fine.
It is you who is totally missing the point.
I do not need faith to know that I can consciously control my own thoughts.  How I do this is irrelevant to the fact that I can do it.
The fact that you cannot conceive of a logical explanation does not mean that conscious control is an impossibility.
The reality that we have conscious control of our thought processes is demonstrated in every post on this forum - it is demonstrated throughout human history.
Denying this reality by suggesting that all human writings are an unavoidable consequence dropping out of subconscious brain activity without the need for conscious control  is a blatant attempt to try to force reality to fit in with our very limited human knowledge.  And your convoluted attempts to deny this reality just provide more evidence for the reality that you do have conscious control of your own thoughts.
You need to get to grips with the evidence of your own consciously driven abilities.
You are much more than an emergent property arising from physically controlled material reactions.
Do not fear the truth, for the truth really does set you free.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2023, 10:58:35 PM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #47234 on: July 04, 2023, 03:11:44 AM »
It is you who is totally missing the point.
I do not need faith to know that I can consciously control my own thoughts.  How I do this is irrelevant to the fact that I can do it.
The fact that you cannot conceive of a logical explanation does not mean that conscious control is an impossibility.
The reality that we have conscious control of our thought processes is demonstrated in every post on this forum - it is demonstrated throughout human history.
Denying this reality by suggesting that all human writings are an unavoidable consequence dropping out of subconscious brain activity without the need for conscious control  is a blatant attempt to try to force reality to fit in with our very limited human knowledge.  And your convoluted attempts to deny this reality just provide more evidence for the reality that you do have conscious control of your own thoughts.
You need to get to grips with the evidence of your own consciously driven abilities.
You are much more than an emergent property arising from physically controlled material reactions.
Do not fear the truth, for the truth really does set you free.

It is you who is totally missing the point
How it works exactly is totally irrelevant to the fact that it works.

The fact that you cannot conceive of a logical explanation does not mean that a deterministic consciousness is an impossibility.
.
You need understand that.the fact that you have to come up with a totally convoluted, fantasy ridden, magic dependant, non logical, idea of a "soul" to somehow make your "reality" work is beyond parody..

If anyone hear fears anything it is you who fears facts and logic as they undo your comfy little fantasy.
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torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #47235 on: July 04, 2023, 06:38:51 AM »

I do not need faith to know that I can consciously control my own thoughts.  How I do this is irrelevant to the fact that I can do it.


OK, give an example of a thought that you 'controlled' and how you altered it through conscious manipulation.

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #47236 on: July 04, 2023, 07:36:14 AM »
It is you who is totally missing the point.
I do not need faith to know that I can consciously control my own thoughts.  How I do this is irrelevant to the fact that I can do it.
The fact that you cannot conceive of a logical explanation does not mean that conscious control is an impossibility.
The reality that we have conscious control of our thought processes is demonstrated in every post on this forum - it is demonstrated throughout human history.
Denying this reality by suggesting that all human writings are an unavoidable consequence dropping out of subconscious brain activity without the need for conscious control  is a blatant attempt to try to force reality to fit in with our very limited human knowledge.  And your convoluted attempts to deny this reality just provide more evidence for the reality that you do have conscious control of your own thoughts.
You need to get to grips with the evidence of your own consciously driven abilities.
You are much more than an emergent property arising from physically controlled material reactions.
Do not fear the truth, for the truth really does set you free.

Hard to know what is the worst aspect of the above word-salad - the ignorance or the incredulity (putting the glaring ad consequentiam to one side.)

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #47237 on: July 04, 2023, 08:36:12 AM »
I do not need faith to know that I can consciously control my own thoughts.

You know nothing of the sort. Perhaps you don't need faith to believe it, but you do need a total detachment from reality and an inability, or unwillingness, to grasp simple logic. Blind unthinking faith clearly helps.

The fact that you cannot conceive of a logical explanation does not mean that conscious control is an impossibility.

It's not about not having an explanation, it's about the fact that it is manifestly impossible.

The reality that we have conscious control of our thought processes is demonstrated in every post on this forum - it is demonstrated throughout human history.

Bearing false witness again.

Denying this reality by suggesting that all human writings are an unavoidable consequence dropping out of subconscious brain activity without the need for conscious control  is a blatant attempt to try to force reality to fit in with our very limited human knowledge.

Says the guy trying to force reality to fit in with with his own blind, illogical, and evidence denying faith.  ::)

And your convoluted attempts to deny this reality just provide more evidence for the reality that you do have conscious control of your own thoughts.

Please stop lying about what is evidence. Nothing at all can be evidence for your impossible claims. The evidence is all against them.

You need to get to grips with the evidence of your own consciously driven abilities.

There is no such evidence. If there was you could actually explain it, rather than just stamping your little foot really, really hard and asserting that there is over, and over, and over again.

Grow up FFS!

Do not fear the truth...

Says the guy who is apparently terrified of ever learning anything or logically engaging with counterarguments.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2023, 08:39:12 AM by Stranger »
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #47238 on: July 04, 2023, 08:56:28 AM »
Hard to know what is the worst aspect of the above word-salad - the ignorance or the incredulity (putting the glaring ad consequentiam to one side.)
Whatever you think of the content of my word salad, Gordon - do you honestly believe that I did not employ my conscious freedom to choose my words?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Aruntraveller

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #47239 on: July 04, 2023, 09:07:11 AM »
Whatever you think of the content of my word salad, Gordon - do you honestly believe that I did not employ my conscious freedom to choose my words?

So did Stanley Unwin.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #47240 on: July 04, 2023, 09:25:56 AM »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #47241 on: July 04, 2023, 09:36:43 AM »
Whatever you think of the content of my word salad, Gordon - do you honestly believe that I did not employ my conscious freedom to choose my words?

Oh I think you consciously choose the words you wrote, as did I: the spelling alone indicates that.

However, what we each wrote reflects our personal traits and biases, along with the effects of previous experiences and influences on us and these have a role in our sub-conscious processing from which our thoughts emerge - hence were are never 'free' as you imagine it, since that would unshackle us from all those factors that are part of our individuality and that are also, ultimately, aspects of how our biology works, including in the background.

You may have the feeling of being 'free' and of having a limited degree of agency, but you don't get to detach yourself from the rest of the baggage, and especially the bits that you aren't even conscious of.   

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #47242 on: July 04, 2023, 09:38:12 AM »
Whatever you think of the content of my word salad, Gordon - do you honestly believe that I did not employ my conscious freedom to choose my words?

The evidence suggests that you didn't engage your brain at all. Just spewed out your usual bullshit without a moment's consideration, let alone rational thought.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #47243 on: July 04, 2023, 11:05:16 AM »
AB,

Quote
It is you who is totally missing the point.

Well, as it was my point and not yours (ie, that there are lots of phenomena whose wrong explanations seem “obvious” and whose better explanations seem “flawed” when no attention is paid to them) I rather think it’s for me to decide which of us has missed the (ie, my) point. Don’t you?     

Quote
I do not need faith to know that I can consciously control my own thoughts.  How I do this is irrelevant to the fact that I can do it.

Yes you do need faith to do that because it’s logically impossible without invoking magic to avoid that logic. Look, I’ll show you (again). In my next post, I’ll name something and I want you to “control your thoughts” so that you don’t picture it.

Fair enough?
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #47244 on: July 04, 2023, 11:10:08 AM »
AB,

…elephant.

How did you get on? See, you couldn’t "control your thoughts" not to picture an elephant at all could you.

QED   
 
Quote
The fact that you cannot conceive of a logical explanation does not mean that conscious control is an impossibility.

Well, it’s logically impossible still but if you want defenestrate logic entirely in favour of magic thinking then still all you have here is the fallacy of proving the negative. The fact that you cannot conceive of a logical explanation for a square circle does not mean that a square circle is an impossibility either if I choose to designate it a magic square circle.

Can you see now where you went wrong here?   

Quote
The reality that we have conscious control of our thought processes is demonstrated in every post on this forum - it is demonstrated throughout human history.

That’s not “the” reality for the reasons I and others have explained to you at length and that you routinely just ignore. It’s just “a” reality in the sense that, say, people who think their epilepsy is caused by evil spirits is a reality for them, but there are still more robust (ie, reason- and evidence-based) explanations available.   

Quote
Denying this reality by suggesting that all human writings are an unavoidable consequence dropping out of subconscious brain activity without the need for conscious control  is a blatant attempt to try to force reality to fit in with our very limited human knowledge.

I know you have no grasp of irony, which is a pity given such a doozy of an example of it. Relying on reason and evidence to understand the world is precisely the attempt to eliminate the risk of “forcing reality to fit in”, whereas just denying that reason and evidence to protect an a priori faith position as you do is exactly an attempt to force reality to fit in with that faith position.   

Quote
And your convoluted attempts…

Why do you find plainly expressed arguments (that you then routinely ignore) to be “convoluted”?

Quote
…to deny this reality just provide more evidence for the reality that you do have conscious control of your own thoughts.

Bullshit. I could tell you again why it’s bullshit, but would there be any point as you’ll never be honest (or brave) enough to engage with the explanations?

Quote
You need to get to grips with the evidence of your own consciously driven abilities.

If you finally provide any such evidence I’ll be pleased to get to grips with it.

When do you propose to do that?

Quote
You are much more than an emergent property arising from physically controlled material reactions.

I hear the reason- and evidence-denying assertion. Now (finally) have a go at justifying with some arguments of your own (and no, unqualified adjectives like "obvious" and "flawed" are not arguments at all).

Quote
Do not fear the truth, for the truth really does set you free.

See above re irony. On the basis of your behaviour here, the only one who fears “the truth” seems to be you.

So now you’ve ducked and dived again, let’s get back the question you were actually asked shall we?

Here it is again. Please try to answer it this time – either a yes or a no will be fine:

Do you agree that for most people who use keyboards the “obvious reality” is that their fingers actually touch the keys and therefore that, without examining them, the arguments for why they’re not doing that would appear to be “flawed”?

That is, can you see that at one workaday, colloquial level a reality is that they are touching the keys but that at the same time at a deeper, more reason- and evidence-based level of reality a different and more robust explanation entirely is available?

Forget your faith claims for now – as a basic proposition can you see how an “obvious” and useful type of reality and a more robust (albeit counter-instinctive) reality can exist at the same time?

« Last Edit: July 04, 2023, 11:21:42 AM by bluehillside Retd. »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #47245 on: July 04, 2023, 11:40:00 AM »
Do you agree that for most people who use keyboards the “obvious reality” is that their fingers actually touch the keys and therefore that, without examining them, the arguments for why they’re not doing that would appear to be “flawed”?

Can't help feeling you're being too generous here. After all, the mistake of thinking fingers touch keyboards can be explained by simple lack of the relevant information. It isn't an obvious impossibility.

On the other hand, the idea that we can "consciously control our own thought processes" doesn't survive the first hint of rational analysis.

Any sort of 'concious control' would require a conscious thought process. To exercise conscious control over the process of thinking means that I'd need to apply it to the thought process that I was using to exercise conscious control over my thought processes. This leads immediately to a blindingly obvious infinite regress.

It's clearly totally impossible and even magic doesn't help unless you're going to claim that it can do the self-contradictory. Unless Alan thinks that his God could literally draw a square circle on my desk, even god-magic isn't going to help him.
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #47246 on: July 04, 2023, 12:55:22 PM »
Oh I think you consciously choose the words you wrote, as did I: the spelling alone indicates that.

However, what we each wrote reflects our personal traits and biases, along with the effects of previous experiences and influences on us and these have a role in our sub-conscious processing from which our thoughts emerge - hence were are never 'free' as you imagine it, since that would unshackle us from all those factors that are part of our individuality and that are also, ultimately, aspects of how our biology works, including in the background.

You may have the feeling of being 'free' and of having a limited degree of agency, but you don't get to detach yourself from the rest of the baggage, and especially the bits that you aren't even conscious of.   
Yes, I am fully aware that there are many things which influence my conscious choices - from past memories, from my own biological make up, from my built in instincts etc - but they do not dictate thoughts.  I am free to contemplate whatever exists in my conscious awareness.  I am free to think things out and direct my thoughts to reach conclusions.  And I am free to consciously assess the validity of the conclusions I come to.  All of which takes place within my conscious awareness before I compose the posts I make.  My point is that my conscious awareness is not just a spectator of things which have been predetermined before they emerge into my consciousness.  Without the power to consciously control, assess and validate my thought processes I would be unable to reach any validated conclusions.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #47247 on: July 04, 2023, 12:59:55 PM »
I am free to contemplate whatever exists in my conscious awareness.

But you aren't 'free' to dictate what emerges into your conscious awareness in the first place!


Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #47248 on: July 04, 2023, 01:03:43 PM »
AB,

…elephant.

How did you get on? See, you couldn’t "control your thoughts" not to picture an elephant at all could you.

QED   
 
I saw the word "elephant" but I chose to picture a kangaroo instead.  :)

I will use my conscious power to control how I choose to reply to the rest of your post shortly
Watch this space.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #47249 on: July 04, 2023, 01:05:39 PM »
But you aren't 'free' to dictate what emerges into your conscious awareness in the first place!
But I am free to choose how, when and where to process with whatever enters my conscious awareness.
I am free to think!
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton