Searching for GOD...

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

What is it that can contemplate the existence and application of deterministic principles?
What is it that can follow logic and examine research?

Why are you asking questions that have been answered countless times already and that tell you nothing at all about your various logically impossible blind faith claim alternatives?

could it be your conscious awareness?

Not without collapsing first into infinite regress, and then into magical thinking woo to get you off the infinite regress problem no.
 

of course not because conscious awareness can't do anything - it just becomes aware of what has already been done.
so what does it?

Your sub-conscious.

[Alan Burns]

Your sub-conscious.

You you appear to put a lot of faith in what can be achieved by unguided, purposeless material reactions.
I put my faith in what can be achieved by the will of the supreme source of all that exists.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

You seem you appear to put a lot of faith in what can be achieved by unguided, purposeless material reactions.
I put my faith in what can be achieved by the will of the supreme source of all that exists.

You're cheating with the term "faith" now here.

"Faith" can mean "reasonable confidence based on reason and evidence" as in, for example, "I have faith that my car will start tomorrow as it's a good car, well maintained etc".

That's the faith that I have about what "free" will must actually be.

"Faith" can also though mean "blind guessing that may be comforting but has no sound reasoning or evidence to indicate that it's also true" as in, for example, "I have faith that I have a magic soul because, well, you know, it's obvious right?"   

That's the faith that you have about what you'd like "free" will to be. 

Can you see the difference?

[ekim]

please explain how a "reaction" can be guided to produce a correct result.
And what can verify the correctness of the result?
another reaction?

Surely the evidence needs to be assessed - what guides the assessment?
And before the evidence is assessed, it needs to be gathered from somewhere.
What is responsible for searching and collating evidence?

And before all this - there needs to be a defined goal for what is being investigated.  What is it that you are trying to do?   Can the process be commenced without conscious intention.

Can all this happen by reactions over which we have no conscious control?

What you have done in your reply to Maeght is ignored the word 'free'.  An answer to what you say might be that firstly the person is not free from the stimulus of  evidence, secondly he is not free from the desire to gather and assess or not gather and assess that evidence and thirdly he is not free from the learned ability to, shall we say, logically process the information received. What you also need to do is explain what you mean by 'control'.

[Alan Burns]

AB,

You're cheating with the term "faith" now here.

"Faith" can mean "reasonable confidence based on reason and evidence" as in, for example, "I have faith that my car will start tomorrow as it's a good car, well maintained etc".

That's the faith that I have about what "free" will must actually be.

"Faith" can also though mean "blind guessing that may be comforting but has no sound reasoning or evidence to indicate that it's also true" as in, for example, "I have faith that I have a magic soul because, well, you know, it's obvious right?"   

That's the faith that you have about what you'd like "free" will to be. 

Can you see the difference?

It is an act of faith to presume that you are just an unintended consequence arising from an exploding cloud of gas.
You claim that this is where the evidence leads you, but if the only evidence you accept is based on material reactions the result is inevitable.

My faith is based upon the power of God - the source of all that exists, to bring me into existence for a purpose and give me the power to choose my own destiny.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

It is an act of faith to presume that you are just an unintended consequence arising from an exploding cloud of gas.

No it isn't. It's an act of reason, based on the available evidence.

Why is this hard for you to grasp?

You claim that this is where the evidence leads you,...

Yes.

...but if the only evidence you accept is based on material reactions the result is inevitable.

The only type of evidence we have is material evidence. If you think there's another type though then you need to tell us what it is. Just claiming non-material evidence to exist but never explaining what it is is worthless posturing. 

[Alan Burns]

AB,

No it isn't. It's an act of reason, based on the available evidence.

Why is this hard for you to grasp?

Yes.

The only type of evidence we have is material evidence. If you think there's another type though then you need to tell us what it is. Just claiming non-material evidence to exist but never explaining what it is is worthless posturing.

Your consciously driven ability to reason is evidence of non material.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

Your consciously driven ability to reason is evidence of non material.

Then by this reasoning the pots of gold at the ends of rainbows are evidence for leprechauns.

If you want to pray in in aid "consciously driven ability to reason" as evidence for something then you need to establish its existence in the first place.

Do you have anything non-idiotic to offer as evidence instead?   

[Stranger]

Your consciously driven ability to reason is evidence of non material.

Please stop lying. Even if the non-material exists, nothing anybody does is evidence for it.

[Stranger]

It is an act of faith to presume that you are just an unintended consequence arising from an exploding cloud of gas.

Please stop lying. Although this is a typically ignorant summary, we have solid evidence for the conclusions we draw, not to mention sound logic to rule out your absurd, impossible nonsense.

My faith is based upon the power of God - the source of all that exists, to bring me into existence for a purpose and give me the power to choose my own destiny.

As you have no evidence, all you have is blind, empty, irrational faith in your own fantasy.

[Alan Burns]

AB,

Then by this reasoning the pots of gold at the ends of rainbows are evidence for leprechauns.

If you want to pray in in aid "consciously driven ability to reason" as evidence for something then you need to establish its existence in the first place.

Do you have anything non-idiotic to offer as evidence instead?

I have to conclude that the reason you try to deny the reality of your consciously driven ability to reason is because it provides undeniable evidence for the power of the human soul.  And I will look forward to your consciously driven attempts to ridicule this statement as it will provide yet more evidence for your silly "head in the sand" attitude to deny this obvious reality.

[Maeght]

Your consciously driven ability to reason is evidence of non material.

It isn't at all.

[Gordon]

Your consciously driven ability to reason is evidence of non material.

Just no - brains are material: end of.

[Stranger]

I have to conclude that the reason you try to deny the reality of your consciously driven ability to reason is because it provides undeniable evidence for the power of the human soul.

It really is difficult to imagine a statement that's more childish, ridiculous, and dishonest. You have changed the subject from"consciously control our own thought processes" to "consciously driven ability to reason", which is more ambiguous. However, assuming you mean the same, the statement become more dishonest, infantile foot-stamping.

It is a lie, pure and simple, that our abilities to reason are evidence for the ability to "consciously control our own thought processes", let alone for "the power of the human soul".

There is of course an obvious reason why you "have to" conclude this. It's to protect your fragile, baseless blind faith. Seems like you will even repeatedly lie to protect it. I thought "lying for Jesus" was confined to literal young earth creationists...

And I will look forward to your consciously driven attempts to ridicule this statement as it will provide yet more evidence for your silly "head in the sand" attitude to deny this obvious reality.

Please stop lying.

[Sebastian Toe]

the human soul.

Ah the human soul.

Please remind us where it resides, how it interacts with the physical brain, how it is created, when it is created, how can it possibly think, what does it do when not connected to your physical brain?

Remember, magic don't count as an explanation.

[Alan Burns]

It really is difficult to imagine a statement that's more childish, ridiculous, and dishonest. You have changed the subject from"consciously control our own thought processes" to "consciously driven ability to reason", which is more ambiguous. However, assuming you mean the same, the statement become more dishonest, infantile foot-stamping.

It is a lie, pure and simple, that our abilities to reason are evidence for the ability to "consciously control our own thought processes", let alone for "the power of the human soul".

Yes, it is all about conscious control of our thoughts, words and actions.
The control which makes us accountable for our thoughts, words and actions.
The control which cannot be defined or understood by our limited human knowledge.
The control we can use to discover the reality behind our existence.
The control which enables us to choose our own destiny.

There is of course an obvious reason why you "have to" conclude this. It's to protect your fragile, baseless blind faith. Seems like you will even repeatedly lie to protect it. I thought "lying for Jesus" was confined to literal young earth creationists...

My faith is not fragile.
It is rock solid.

[Stranger]

Yes, it is all about conscious control of our thoughts, words and actions.
The control which makes us accountable for our thoughts, words and actions.
The control which cannot be defined or understood by our limited human knowledge.
The control we can use to discover the reality behind our existence.
The control which enables us to choose our own destiny.

Yet more silly baseless assertions.   

My faith is not fragile.
It is rock solid.

Why do you feel the need for childish rants full of baseless assertions and lies, then? Why just ignore counterarguments? Doesn't seem like the actions of somebody who is confident.

Have you forgotten this?

My view that conscious awareness can't be generated from material reactions alone is not just personal incredulity.  It is based upon sound logic on which I could write many pages.

More than three years and we still have no hint of your "sound logic" and you seem to have given up on even pretending that you have any.

What do you expect people to make of all this?

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

I have to conclude that the reason you try to deny the reality of your consciously driven ability to reason is because it provides undeniable evidence for the power of the human soul.  And I will look forward to your consciously driven attempts to ridicule this statement as it will provide yet more evidence for your silly "head in the sand" attitude to deny this obvious reality.

You are of course free to believe any idiotic, evidence-denying, logically impossible bullshit you find appealing, but it comes at a high price. You’ve built an impregnable carapace of lying, false reasoning, avoidance and wilful ignorance to protect your blind faith that’s profoundly disheartening to see in a grown man. You won’t understand this, but my contempt is actually more for the liars who conned you than for you for being conned, but conned you have been – it's too late now for you, but let’s hope you don’t do the same to the generations that follow you.     

 
   

Yes, it is all about conscious control of our thoughts, words and actions.
The control which makes us accountable for our thoughts, words and actions.
The control which cannot be defined or understood by our limited human knowledge.
The control we can use to discover the reality behind our existence.
The control which enables us to choose our own destiny.

Mindless idiocy.

My faith is not fragile.
It is rock solid.

Depressingly, I believe you. You’ve shown here that no amount of reason an evidence can ever be allowed to remove even a single grain from the sandcastle of blind faith in which you’ve invested so heavily for most of your life.

While your behaviour here remains egregiously dishonest, you have my sympathy nonetheless.       

[Alan Burns]

Your sub-conscious.

If what appears to be consciously controlled reasoning pops into your conscious awareness from subconscious brain activity -
What is it that can verify whether the reasoning is correct or mistaken?
It can't be your conscious awareness if we have no conscious control of our thoughts.
So does your sub conscious actually verify itself?
Is it self correcting?
How can your conscious awareness possibly know if the reasoning is correct?

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

If what appears to be consciously controlled reasoning pops into your conscious awareness from subconscious brain activity -
What is it that can verify whether the reasoning is correct or mistaken?
It can't be your conscious awareness if we have no conscious control of our thoughts.
So does your sub conscious actually verify itself?
Is it self correcting?
How can your conscious awareness possibly know if the reasoning is correct?

Are you just cutting and pasting the same dishonest idiocies now?

[Stranger]

If what appears to be consciously controlled reasoning pops into your conscious awareness from subconscious brain activity -
What is it that can verify whether the reasoning is correct or mistaken?
It can't be your conscious awareness if we have no conscious control of our thoughts.
So does your sub conscious actually verify itself?
Is it self correcting?
How can your conscious awareness possibly know if the reasoning is correct?

Did you actually bother to think about this for a single microsecond before posting?

If your conscious mind is in control -
What is it that can verify whether the reasoning is correct or mistaken?
It can't be your subconscious if we have conscious control of our thoughts.
So does your conscious mind actually verify itself?
Is it self correcting?
How can your subconscious possibly know if the reasoning is correct?

Quite apart from the utter stupidity of thinking we have conscious control of our thought process, both because of the infinite regress and direct experience that we have no such control, why would one part of our minds be inherently more reliable than another? What magic pixie dust is consciousness supposed to have that makes better?

In actual fact, of course, it's perfectly possible that consciousness plays some part in our reasoning process, but exactly what is difficult to say, at it's blindingly obvious that it's not in control of everything else.

[torridon]

If what appears to be consciously controlled reasoning pops into your conscious awareness from subconscious brain activity -
What is it that can verify whether the reasoning is correct or mistaken?
It can't be your conscious awareness if we have no conscious control of our thoughts.
So does your sub conscious actually verify itself?
Is it self correcting?
How can your conscious awareness possibly know if the reasoning is correct?

Your subconscious mind 'knows' when a conclusion is reached/verified before your conscious awareness of that knowledge arises, fractionally later.  Our subconscious minds are constantly doing all sorts of pattern recognition like this without 'our' being aware of it.  As an example of this, if I am given a long list of names (not in any order) and I want to find if my name is in the list, I don't consciously read through the list, one name at a time, but rather I have learned that I can just scan through the list, and most times I can find my name that way.  This is just one example of using the high speed pattern recognition of your subconscious mind.

[Sriram]

Your subconscious mind 'knows' when a conclusion is reached/verified before your conscious awareness of that knowledge arises, fractionally later.  Our subconscious minds are constantly doing all sorts of pattern recognition like this without 'our' being aware of it.  As an example of this, if I am given a long list of names (not in any order) and I want to find if my name is in the list, I don't consciously read through the list, one name at a time, but rather I have learned that I can just scan through the list, and most times I can find my name that way.  This is just one example of using the high speed pattern recognition of your subconscious mind.

Do you believe that the subconscious mind is a subset of the conscious mind or that the conscious mind is a subset of the subconscious mind?

[Sebastian Toe]

If what appears to be consciously controlled reasoning pops into your conscious awareness from subconscious brain activity -
What is it that can verify whether the reasoning is correct or mistaken?
It can't be your conscious awareness if we have no conscious control of our thoughts.
So does your sub conscious actually verify itself?
Is it self correcting?
How can your conscious awareness possibly know if the reasoning is correct?

Alan Burns type reply forthcoming,  to which there can be no arguement against... seemingly!

You don't need to know  how your subconscious does it, it just does.

[torridon]

Do you believe that the subconscious mind is a subset of the conscious mind or that the conscious mind is a subset of the subconscious mind?

The latter.  Cognitive scientists liken conscious mind to being just the tip of the iceberg; the vast majority of mind is hidden from view.