Searching for GOD...

[Alan Burns]

If we wished differently then of course we would choose differently; that kind of misses the point.  This thought experiment concerns - could you choose differently in an identical situation. If your desire is different second time around, then the situation clearly is not identical.

You have failed to grasp that there is a reason behind our amazing God given gift of free will.
God has given us this gift in order to freely choose to follow Him and accept Him as our Lord and Saviour.

[Dicky Underpants]

We would certainly be free to make a different choice if we so wished.
Only God knows how this is done.

If we did not have the God given power of free will, our lives would be ultimately pointless.

What a shame that there's a strong possibility that life and the universe aren't concerned with making you feel that you matter.

[Stranger]

You have failed to grasp that there is a reason behind our amazing God given gift of free will.

Except that you haven't actually managed to make the phrase "free will" mean anything coherent at all. It's either just reasonless random noise or self-contradictory. It is impossible (self-contradictory) to be able to choose differently in exactly the same situation unless it's without any reason (all potential reasons are identical), which would make it just random.

Just ignoring the point is not going to make it go away and it makes you look stupid. Yet again we find you spouting meaningless gibberish and totally ignoring the logic that shows that it's gibberish.

No sign of intelligent thought at all, let alone deep thought.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

You have failed to grasp that there is a reason behind our amazing God given gift of free will.

You have failed to produce any evidence for there being a god, and your notion of “free” will is self-negating for the reasons that keep being explained to you and that you’re too dishonest to address.

Thus you offer nothing for people to “fail to grasp”.

God has given us this gift in order to freely choose to follow Him and accept Him as our Lord and Saviour.

Blind faith claim, and moreover your choice of beliefs about that seem to be obviously a product of your culture and upbringing and so anything but “free”.

[jeremyp]

We would certainly be free to make a different choice if we so wished.

But you wouldn't would you. The thought processes would be the same. The only way you would make a different decision would be if some random element was involved. And that doesn't help you.

Only God knows how this is done.

So how can you claim you are right if you don't know?

If we did not have the God given power of free will, our lives would be ultimately pointless.

Yes, but so what?

[jeremyp]

.

No they wouldn’t (and no they aren’t) but, even if that was true, it would still be a basic error in reasoning called the argumentum ad populum.

Actually it is the argument from adverse consequences.

[bluehillside Retd.]

jeremy,

Actually it is the argument from adverse consequences.

You're quite right of course. I'm so used to correcting him with no response in return that I typed this one in a hurry and forgot to review it.

[Alan Burns]

Except that you haven't actually managed to make the phrase "free will" mean anything coherent at all. It's either just reasonless random noise or self-contradictory. It is impossible (self-contradictory) to be able to choose differently in exactly the same situation unless it's without any reason (all potential reasons are identical), which would make it just random.

Just ignoring the point is not going to make it go away and it makes you look stupid. Yet again we find you spouting meaningless gibberish and totally ignoring the logic that shows that it's gibberish.

No sign of intelligent thought at all, let alone deep thought.

It gives us the freedom to choose our own destiny

[Alan Burns]

What determines your conscious self’s will (that is invoked in its act of will)? In other words, how does your conscious self decide what to will in any given situation? For example is your will based on emotions and feelings generated by events you experience?

You are your conscious self.
You are in control.
You do not need any other agency to determine your will.

I can't offer any explanation for how we invoke an act of free will - the evidence lies in what humans can do with their free will.

[Stranger]

It gives us the freedom to choose our own destiny

When will it filter through your stubborn blind faith that your claims are meaningless? All you are doing is providing endless evidence that you are terrified of actually thinking this through.

You've totally ignored the substantive arguments that have been presented. If the situation, and your own state of mind, was the same, then there is no possible reason for you to wish something other than you did at the time. Any difference would therefore be without reasons and therefore random.

[Stranger]

What determines your conscious self’s will (that is invoked in its act of will)? In other words, how does your conscious self decide what to will in any given situation? For example is your will based on emotions and feelings generated by events you experience?

Best of luck getting an answer to that that isn't the logical equivalent of "it's magic, innit?" or some inane, evasive drivel about it being 'you'.

You are your conscious self.
You are in control.
You do not need any other agency to determine your will.

I am a true prophet! You did not answer the question. Yet more evidence that you are terrified of properly thinking about the question.

I can't offer any explanation for how we invoke an act of free will - the evidence lies in what humans can do with their free will.

And now the defensive dishonesty. It is impossible for what we say or do to provide evidence for what you claim. There cannot possibly be any evidence that we could have done differently, let alone the contradictory claim that any difference could be non-random.

You really should stop bearing false witness about this.

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

You are your conscious self.
You are in control.
You do not need any other agency to determine your will.

I can't offer any explanation for how we invoke an act of free will - the evidence lies in what humans can do with their free will.

Well then demonstrate your version of freedom i.e could have done differently without the decision being random.

Remember some posting something is not evidence that they could have done differently.

[torridon]

You have failed to grasp that there is a reason behind our amazing God given gift of free will.

Unsupported assertion

God has given us this gift in order to freely choose to follow Him and accept Him as our Lord and Saviour.

However, overlooking the unsupported assertion here, God did not give us the freedom to believe things we don't believe.  Such as 'God', for instance

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

You are your conscious self.
You are in control.
You do not need any other agency to determine your will.

Ok thanks - but I wasn't suggesting any other agency was involved. Just trying to ascertain in this scenario you describe where you are in control and you are your conscious self, what might induce you to choose one thing over another?

I can't offer any explanation for how we invoke an act of free will - the evidence lies in what humans can do with their free will.

Not sure if I understand you - are you saying that you don't know why you made the choices that you made? You just made them but you don't know why you chose what you did?

[Sebastian Toe]

You are your conscious self.
You are in control.
You do not need any other agency to determine your will.

But another agency can determine your will, correct?

[Alan Burns]

First, there are no eye witness accounts.

Second, even if there were eye witness accounts they’re one of the most unreliable forms of evidence we have.

Third, even if there were eye witness accounts and even if you could find some way to eliminate their inherent unreliability, still you’d have the problem of how you’d apply the naturalistic character of evidence to clams of the supernatural.

In other words, your claim to have “historical evidence” is shit.   

historical evidence:
In addition to the eye witness accounts recounted in the four Gospels there is the phenomenal growth of Christianity which occurred despite intense persecution from the Jewish hierarchy and Roman authorities.  If there had been any credible evidence that the resurrection had not occurred surely the Jews and Romans would have used it to kill off Christianity in the early stages.  So why the gargantuan growth? In addition to the witnessing to the life death and resurrection of Jesus there were miraculous healings being performed in the name of Jesus.  Right from the start, Christianity has undergone and survived formidable persecution.

[Alan Burns]

Not sure if I understand you - are you saying that you don't know why you made the choices that you made? You just made them but you don't know why you chose what you did?

Of course you know why you made your choices.
The reasons all exist in your conscious awareness in which you have the freedom to contemplate what is possible and what you consciously choose - not what the past has dictated.

[Nearly Sane]

historical evidence:
In addition to the eye witness accounts recounted in the four Gospels there is the phenomenal growth of Christianity which occurred despite intense persecution from the Jewish hierarchy and Roman authorities.  If there had been any credible evidence that the resurrection had not occurred surely the Jews and Romans would have used it to kill off Christianity in the early stages.  So why the gargantuan growth? In addition to the witnessing to the life death and resurrection of Jesus there were miraculous healings being performed in the name of Jesus.  Right from the start, Christianity has undergone and survived formidable persecution.

When you refer to 'eye witness' accounts, you are either lying, or showing that you have no idea what an eye witness account means.

Oh, and while I am here any chance of the methodology for evaluating supernatural claims that I've asked you for multiple times over the years, that you have never answered?

[Nearly Sane]

Of course you know why you made your choices.
The reasons all exist in your conscious awareness in which you have the freedom to contemplate what is possible and what you consciously choose - not what the past has dictated.

So if all the reasons exist, and you are aware of them, then if you were to replay any decision then it would be exactly the same decision.

[jeremyp]

historical evidence:
In addition to the eye witness accounts recounted in the four Gospels

There are no eye witness accounts in the four gospels.

there is the phenomenal growth of Christianity which occurred despite intense persecution from the Jewish hierarchy and Roman authorities.

The alleged persecution by the Romans is greatly exaggerated. Beyond 70CE there could be no Jewish persecution. The phenomenal growth of Christianity can't rival the phenomenal growth of Islam or even scientology.

If there had been any credible evidence that the resurrection had not occurred surely the Jews and Romans would have used it to kill off Christianity in the early stages.

Why would they? In its early stages, Christianity was just a minor cult like several others at the time.

In addition to the witnessing to the life death and resurrection of Jesus there were miraculous healings being performed in the name of Jesus.  Right from the start, Christianity has undergone and survived formidable persecution.

All of this is false.

[Sebastian Toe]

historical evidence:
In addition to the eye witness accounts recounted in the four Gospels there is the phenomenal growth of Christianity which occurred despite intense persecution from the Jewish hierarchy and Roman authorities.  If there had been any credible evidence that the resurrection had not occurred surely the Jews and Romans would have used it to kill off Christianity in the early stages.  So why the gargantuan growth? In addition to the witnessing to the life death and resurrection of Jesus there were miraculous healings being performed in the name of Jesus.  Right from the start, Christianity has undergone and survived formidable persecution.

That might have been the case until recently and now the phenomenal growth case can be made for Islam rather than Christianity.
It is predicted that Islam will become the number one religion in the world in the coming years.
That must surely be because God really did send an angel to deliver the true message to Mohammed that the Bible didn't quite get it as correct as you believe!

Just following your logic Alan.

[Maeght]

historical evidence:
In addition to the eye witness accounts recounted in the four Gospels there is the phenomenal growth of Christianity which occurred despite intense persecution from the Jewish hierarchy and Roman authorities.  If there had been any credible evidence that the resurrection had not occurred surely the Jews and Romans would have used it to kill off Christianity in the early stages.  So why the gargantuan growth? In addition to the witnessing to the life death and resurrection of Jesus there were miraculous healings being performed in the name of Jesus.  Right from the start, Christianity has undergone and survived formidable persecution.

There is no actual evidence of any of that, just claims. For example there is no actual evidence is that there was intense persecution or formidable persecution of Christians by the Jewish and Roman authorities. You have stated this before and I've asked for evidence but you never provide any and rarely actually respond to that request but rather go quiet on it for some time then repeat the claim later.

[Stranger]

Of course you know why you made your choices.
The reasons all exist in your conscious awareness in which you have the freedom to contemplate what is possible and what you consciously choose - not what the past has dictated.

Which is just a trite little storybook version that ignores the actual question, followed by one of you usual baseless assertions.

If this process took place with exactly the same starting point, and exactly the same conditions as it proceeded, then if it could have reached a different conclusion, then there  can be no possible reason for the difference, so it would be random.

Logically, we make choices according to the person we are, our state of mind at the time, and the circumstances we face. Anything else would no be our choice. We are the person we are because of the past (nature, nurture, and experience) our state of mind will be due to our immediate past, and the circumstances are external.

There is no place for your self-contradictory nonsense version of 'free-will'. It's logically impossible and its impossibility has nothing to do any assumption that we must be entirely physical beings.

Why don't you ever pause your silly script and stop and THINK for once in your life?

[Cue mindless evasion like "But how can I stop and think when I don't have magic, la-la land 'freedom'?"]

[Dicky Underpants]

historical evidence:
In addition to the eye witness accounts recounted in the four Gospels there is the phenomenal growth of Christianity which occurred despite intense persecution from the Jewish hierarchy and Roman authorities.  If there had been any credible evidence that the resurrection had not occurred surely the Jews and Romans would have used it to kill off Christianity in the early stages.  So why the gargantuan growth? In addition to the witnessing to the life death and resurrection of Jesus there were miraculous healings being performed in the name of Jesus.  Right from the start, Christianity has undergone and survived formidable persecution.

Eye witness accounts, my eye! You obviously have no awareness of the historical-critical method, nor the research which has been done on the Bible in the last 250 years. I doubt you've even got a grasp why John's gospel differs so markedly from the others, and why it has so precious few instances where it can be even considered 'historical', let alone consistent with the others.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Of course you know why you made your choices.
The reasons all exist in your conscious awareness in which you have the freedom to contemplate what is possible and what you consciously choose - not what the past has dictated.

If you have reasons for a choice you make, doesn't that mean something occurred before you made your choice that led to you making that choice?

Presumably the thoughts that you choose to express on this forum are prompted by some event that occurred before you had that thought or chose to express it e.g. the words you type are because of a post you read on this forum, or something you read in the Bible or a belief you hold because of an experience you have had e.g the belief that you are required to be a witness to Jesus and to evangelise. In addition, if one of the other posters had not posted their specific words on here, or if you had not read them, you would not have responded as you did in your own post.

So it sounds like your choices are determined by past events and circumstances, annd that these circumstances induce/ enable you to disregard information that does not fit in with your existing preferences (determined by nature / nurture) on how you want to live your life.

What I wasn't clear on was whether you thought your preferences were an act of God's will, rather than determined by natural events in your life? E.g God induced a particular belief by an act of God's will rather than through emotional reactions to past events?