Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3747230 times)

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48550 on: October 07, 2023, 06:51:21 PM »
It remains a mystery to me how you can value reason, logic, and honesty if the output from your material brain is entirely determined by material reactions beyond your conscious control.

 ::)

Total misrepresentation of the opposing view (yet again) and complete inability to provide any logic. This is yet more evidence of your dishonesty and inability to reason logically, which just reinforces my reasons to avoid your faith like the plague.

You've even used my reply to somebody else to run away from my other post:
And you really do need to stop the dishonest pretence that it is physics that stops your batshit concept of 'freedom' from making any sense.

Control itself is an interaction and cannot happen in zero time. Any 'ever present state' is zero time because the present (to the extent it has a precise meaning) is a single moment it time. Anything 'outside of time' is possible if and only if it is possible in zero time. This is because the requirement is identical, namely that there is no extension along a time dimension.

Once you have time, then either everything happens because of (pre-existing) reasons, which means determinism (real meaning) where there is only one possible outcome, or, to some extent, things happen for no reason at all, which means randomness.

It really is time you stopped hiding behind meaningless mantras, that you refuse to even try to define or clarify, and faced up to the logic. And, no that doesn't mean some silly assertion that it is based on the material universe. In fact, it is based on what you say minds can do.
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48551 on: October 07, 2023, 10:59:40 PM »
And you really do need to stop the dishonest pretence that it is physics that stops your batshit concept of 'freedom' from making any sense.

My concept of freedom goes way beyond anything the laws of physics acting on the material elements of our brain can ever achieve.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48552 on: October 08, 2023, 08:09:52 AM »
My concept of freedom goes way beyond anything the laws of physics acting on the material elements of our brain can ever achieve.

This is merely a platitude.  But when asked to provide meaningful explanations or illustrate your claims with actual real world examples, you are nowhere to be seen.

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48553 on: October 08, 2023, 08:44:10 AM »
My concept of freedom goes way beyond anything the laws of physics acting on the material elements of our brain can ever achieve.

That's because it's self-contradictory nonsense, and once again we can note that you ignored all the substantive points and just posted a trite, baseless assertion.    ::)

Your continued attempts to claim that the only problems with your notion of freedom are limitations imposed by the physical world are also dishonest, because you never address either the logic that undermines the claim or the logic that tells us that this sort of claim amounts to a claim of omniscience, let alone provide any actual reasoning to support it.

Your attempts to make your concept of freedom make sense are nothing short of comical, as is your claim to have 'thought deeply' about the subject or have 'sound logic'.

In my experience people who have thought deeply about a subject do not run away from questions. They like questions because it gives them more opportunity to explain their thought processes. If somebody says they don't understand a phrase they use, they'll be falling over themselves to explain it in a different way.

You are more like somebody who has learnt something by rote. All you seem to have is the script you use. You demonstrate no actual comprehension at all. Hence, when people question you about your absurd phrases and baseless assertions, all you can do is distract, ignore, and repeat.

Meaningless phrases that you refuse to explain:
  "Ever present state of conscious awareness".
  "Concious control of our own thought processes"

Baseless assertions that you never attempt to justify:
  That your version of freedom is demonstrable.
  That what people say is evidence of it.

Until you face up to these points, no thinking, rational person is going to take you seriously.
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48554 on: October 08, 2023, 10:07:47 AM »
That's because it's self-contradictory nonsense, and once again we can note that you ignored all the substantive points and just posted a trite, baseless assertion.    ::)

Your continued attempts to claim that the only problems with your notion of freedom are limitations imposed by the physical world are also dishonest, because you never address either the logic that undermines the claim or the logic that tells us that this sort of claim amounts to a claim of omniscience, let alone provide any actual reasoning to support it.

Your attempts to make your concept of freedom make sense are nothing short of comical, as is your claim to have 'thought deeply' about the subject or have 'sound logic'.

In my experience people who have thought deeply about a subject do not run away from questions. They like questions because it gives them more opportunity to explain their thought processes. If somebody says they don't understand a phrase they use, they'll be falling over themselves to explain it in a different way.

You are more like somebody who has learnt something by rote. All you seem to have is the script you use. You demonstrate no actual comprehension at all. Hence, when people question you about your absurd phrases and baseless assertions, all you can do is distract, ignore, and repeat.

Meaningless phrases that you refuse to explain:
  "Ever present state of conscious awareness".
  "Concious control of our own thought processes"

Baseless assertions that you never attempt to justify:
  That your version of freedom is demonstrable.
  That what people say is evidence of it.

Until you face up to these points, no thinking, rational person is going to take you seriously.
Let's face the truth.
The truth is that there can be no logical explanation for the freedom we all enjoy.
It is a simple logical deduction that physically determined material reactions alone can never generate the imaginative, creative thinking demonstrated by every human being.
It is perfectly logical to conclude that our freedom is a miraculous gift from God.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48555 on: October 08, 2023, 10:18:22 AM »
Let's face the truth.

Be great if you tried it for once in your life.

The truth is that there can be no logical explanation for the freedom we all enjoy.

Not only is this an utterly baseless assertion but, as I keep pointing out and you keep ignoring, if there is no logical explanation, then you're into contradiction. This means that you cannot possibly claim logic or evidence support your conclusion and you have to admit to blind faith.

Logic cannot possibly lead you to an illogical, contradictory conclusion.

It is a simple logical deduction that physically determined material reactions alone can never generate the imaginative, creative thinking demonstrated by every human being.

  See above. Also: where is this mythical 'simple logical deduction'?

Absolutely nothing you've posted in all these years even looks like it might be a logical deduction.
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Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48556 on: October 08, 2023, 10:20:08 AM »
Let's face the truth.
The truth is that there can be no logical explanation for the freedom we all enjoy.
It is a simple logical deduction that physically determined material reactions alone can never generate the imaginative, creative thinking demonstrated by every human being.
It is perfectly logical to conclude that our freedom is a miraculous gift from God.

Nope - you have a cheek using words like 'truth' and 'logic'.

It's just biology doing it's thing, whether you like it or not, no matter what amount of infantile and fallacious  theobollocks you post here.

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48557 on: October 08, 2023, 11:09:31 AM »
It is a simple logical deduction that physically determined material reactions alone can never generate the imaginative, creative thinking demonstrated by every human being.

Just to be clear, because you always make the same mistakes: unargued assertion (it just is or it's obvious), personal incredulity (I can't see how it could work, so it's impossible), shifting the burden of proof (you can't explain exactly how it works, so it's impossible), and appeal to consequentness (but then we'd be biological robots, the criminal justice system wouldn't work, etc.) are all fallacies (dimwitted mistakes in reasoning), not logical deductions.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48558 on: October 08, 2023, 11:49:41 AM »
Material reactions are controlled by the laws of physics.
We cannot control the laws of physics.
As you haven't responded to my other points in the post and chosen only to respond to this one point, it seems you have no evidence to offer to show that your choices e.g. your choice of thoughts to express on this forum are not determined by preceding events and information stored in your brain.

Was this passage of time in relation to your choices the only "law of physics" that you had in mind in relation to the process of thinking and choosing a preferred option? Or are there other laws of physics related to thinking that you had come across that you think are relevant to this discussion?
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48559 on: October 08, 2023, 12:09:14 PM »
To be honest I'm always a bit unclear what it is I'm supposed to be missing out on. What have I actually 'abandoned'? Obviously there are people who see a benefit in believing things they have no good reason to think are true, but I really don't understand what it is.
Possibly a different way of reacting to events that may happen in life. As I said, that different way of reacting may not have value to you.

I'm glad I was an atheist because I understand why some atheists get frustrated with those theists who assert their beliefs as facts. Now as a theist myself, I can think that their theist assertions are not supported by evidence / don't make sense and I can also see why they want to believe what they believe because it supports their other beliefs. 
Quote
Yes and one of the (many) problems arises when people become certain of things they have no good reason to think are true. I mean seeing some benefit in certain beliefs while understanding that it is just faith is one thing but it's those that don't understand that it is just faith that are worrying.
Agreed. But some people becoming certain of their beliefs is not just a problem in relation to faith beliefs but any moral belief. I asked the question about how the critical thinking process has been applied to our society's moral beliefs about euthanising very old ill people (Reply #48538 http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=10333.48538)
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48560 on: October 08, 2023, 01:50:02 PM »
Possibly a different way of reacting to events that may happen in life. As I said, that different way of reacting may not have value to you.

I was going to ask why it would make a difference to how I react, but it's actually more fundamental than that. I just don't get faith at all in the sense you seem to be talking about it. It looks like you believe something that you recognise isn't supported by reasoning or evidence, but how do you even do that?

To me belief doesn't seem like a choice. Either I'm convinced of something or I'm not. I don't see how you would even go about believing something that is not convincing.   

Agreed. But some people becoming certain of their beliefs is not just a problem in relation to faith beliefs but any moral belief.

Or other beliefs, for that matter.

I asked the question about how the critical thinking process has been applied to our society's moral beliefs about euthanising very old ill people [#48538]

I think the first thing critical thinking tells you about moral beliefs is that there are no easy answers to difficult problems and no absolute, objective answers at all.
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48561 on: October 08, 2023, 01:58:27 PM »
Just to be clear, because you always make the same mistakes: unargued assertion (it just is or it's obvious), personal incredulity (I can't see how it could work, so it's impossible), shifting the burden of proof (you can't explain exactly how it works, so it's impossible), and appeal to consequentness (but then we'd be biological robots, the criminal justice system wouldn't work, etc.) are all fallacies (dimwitted mistakes in reasoning), not logical deductions.
The simple fact is that there can be no ultimate source of control for our thoughts in the materialistic scenario.   Any attempt to trace a source of control disappears into the oblivion of endless "cause and effect" events.

And it is impossible to define a single source of conscious awareness within the multitude of material reactions occurring in a material brain.

So ask yourself - is your conscious self in control of what you say, think or do?  Or is everything predefined by events beyond your conscious control?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48562 on: October 08, 2023, 02:08:55 PM »
As you haven't responded to my other points in the post and chosen only to respond to this one point, it seems you have no evidence to offer to show that your choices e.g. your choice of thoughts to express on this forum are not determined by preceding events and information stored in your brain.

Was this passage of time in relation to your choices the only "law of physics" that you had in mind in relation to the process of thinking and choosing a preferred option? Or are there other laws of physics related to thinking that you had come across that you think are relevant to this discussion?
I am sorry I did not have time to answer all your points in detail.

In essence - my conscious self is certainly aware of past events which can influence what I choose to say, think or do.  But I am not an automated biological machine which simply reacts to past events in accordance with the rules of material science.  I am in control and I have the power to contemplate what exists in my conscious awareness before invoking my consciously chosen actions.  My ability to control my thoughts and invoke conscious choices is certainly beyond any scientific  or logical explanation - apart from accepting that I have my God given gift of free will.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48563 on: October 08, 2023, 02:10:15 PM »
The simple fact is that there can be no ultimate source of control for our thoughts in the materialistic scenario.

The only control system involved is the brain.

Any attempt to trace a source of control disappears into the oblivion of endless "cause and effect" events.

You seem to be confusing control with causality. I guess this is just another instance of your rather absurd attempts to re-define the word 'control' to mean your absurd, irrational nonsense.

So, what we have here is just that you don't like the implications: appeal to consequences dimwittery.

And it is impossible to define a single source of conscious awareness within the multitude of material reactions occurring in a material brain.

Unargued assertion dimwittery.

So ask yourself - is your conscious self in control of what you say, think or do?  Or is everything predefined by events beyond your conscious control?

False dichotomy dimwittery. I'd forgotten that you like that one too.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48564 on: October 08, 2023, 02:16:51 PM »
I was going to ask why it would make a difference to how I react, but it's actually more fundamental than that. I just don't get faith at all in the sense you seem to be talking about it. It looks like you believe something that you recognise isn't supported by reasoning or evidence, but how do you even do that?

To me belief doesn't seem like a choice. Either I'm convinced of something or I'm not. I don't see how you would even go about believing something that is not convincing....

If you do not choose your beliefs, something I agree you don't, then talking about reasons to be convinced of something is contradictory since you are positing a choicw made because of things that you believe to justify a belief.

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48565 on: October 08, 2023, 03:10:52 PM »
If you do not choose your beliefs, something I agree you don't, then talking about reasons to be convinced of something is contradictory since you are positing a choicw made because of things that you believe to justify a belief.

No idea what you're even trying to say here. Either one finds the available evidence and/or reasoning convincing or you don't. That's why it isn't a choice. At least to me, it seems that VG is suggesting it is a choice to her.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48566 on: October 08, 2023, 03:17:49 PM »
No idea what you're even trying to say here. Either one finds the available evidence and/or reasoning convincing or you don't. That's why it isn't a choice. At least to me, it seems that VG is suggesting it is a choice to her.
I think you are misreading Gabriella.

As to what I'm saying you appear to suggest that you believe what there is evidence for, and that is a good thing. That there are people who believe in things for which there is no evidence for and that is a bad thing.

And yet if no one chooses their beliefs, including what is good or bad, that there is what you believe to be evidence doesn't make a difference.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48567 on: October 08, 2023, 03:18:37 PM »

You seem to be confusing control with causality.
So what do deem to be the ultimate cause of whatever you think is in control of your mind?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48568 on: October 08, 2023, 03:21:20 PM »
So what do deem to be the ultimate cause of whatever you think is in control of your mind?
What do you mean by 'ultimate cause'?

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48569 on: October 08, 2023, 03:32:42 PM »
So what do deem to be the ultimate cause of whatever you think is in control of your mind?

And you seem to be running away from justifying your absurd notion of 'freedom' yet again.

In what way is this even a meaningful question, let alone of any relevance to what you described as a "a simple logical deduction"?
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jeremyp

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48570 on: October 08, 2023, 03:36:55 PM »

It is a simple logical deduction that physically determined material reactions alone can never generate the imaginative, creative thinking demonstrated by every human being.

Go on then. Let's see you deduce it logically.
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Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48571 on: October 08, 2023, 03:39:01 PM »
As to what I'm saying you appear to suggest that you believe what there is evidence for, and that is a good thing. That there are people who believe in things for which there is no evidence for and that is a bad thing.

I was actually explaining why I don't see belief as a choice. I didn't say anything about things being 'good' or 'bad'. They are rather strange terms to apply anyway.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48572 on: October 08, 2023, 04:25:36 PM »
I was actually explaining why I don't see belief as a choice. I didn't say anything about things being 'good' or 'bad'. They are rather strange terms to apply anyway.
Then why did you? To quote reply 48524 from you


'Of course nobody can make somebody want to learn these things or want to submit beliefs to the rational part of our minds, but the option is there. Even if somebody does not want those things, it is good that they can at least recognise what they are doing. It's people who are unaware that their beliefs are not based on evidence or reasoning that tend to cause the problems.'

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48573 on: October 08, 2023, 05:01:38 PM »
Then why did you? To quote reply 48524 from you


'Of course nobody can make somebody want to learn these things or want to submit beliefs to the rational part of our minds, but the option is there. Even if somebody does not want those things, it is good that they can at least recognise what they are doing. It's people who are unaware that their beliefs are not based on evidence or reasoning that tend to cause the problems.'

Because that was about self-awareness, not whether you base your beliefs on reasoning and evidence or not.

I get the impression recently that quite often you just want to pick an argument for the sake of it (in general, not specifically with me).
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48574 on: October 08, 2023, 05:24:24 PM »
Because that was about self-awareness, not whether you base your beliefs on reasoning and evidence or not.

I get the impression recently that quite often you just want to pick an argument for the sake of it (in general, not specifically with me).
I don't see that as a valid difference as it is in itself a belief.

Is what your impression for my motivation relevant here?