Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3746830 times)

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48800 on: October 31, 2023, 12:02:02 PM »
Yes, and do you regard this as evidence for free will ?  You could regard this as a flavour of free will, freedom from indoctrination; but is that is the limit of your 'deep thinking' on the matter ? In a more thoughtful understanding of human choices, people make choices for reasons and whilst we can make choices that free us from indoctrination, we cannot make choices that are free of reasons.  Those people converting to Christianity, they have ther reasons; likewise those converting to Islam also have their reasons.  In every case, there must be some reason why a person forms a preference one way or another.  Have you ever met anyone, anywhere, who formed preferences or beliefs out of thin air, for no reason ?
Of course people have reasons to believe in what they have consciously discerned to be the truth.
These reasons are formulated within our conscious awareness by being able to contemplate what we perceive with our physical senses and consciously guide our thought processes to reach verifiable conclusions.  To imply (as you have in previous posts) that all this goes on within our subconscious brain activity before we become aware of it simply beggars belief.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48801 on: October 31, 2023, 12:04:06 PM »
Could you have written something different? If your answer to that is yes, what would make you choose to write something different?
My God given freedom to choose what I write.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48802 on: October 31, 2023, 12:06:08 PM »
My God given freedom to choose what I write.
That's you stating what you think gives you the ability to do so, not why you would. It looks as if what you are not choosing to do us actually read the post you replied to.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48803 on: October 31, 2023, 12:14:40 PM »
My God given freedom to choose what I write.
Perhaps you like, therefore, to choose to write a response to my post challenging your completely unevidenced assertions of growing numbers of converts from non christian religions to Christianity.

jeremyp

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48804 on: October 31, 2023, 12:17:09 PM »
My God given freedom to choose what I write.

Yes, but how do you choose? This post of yours, for example, didn't you choose to write it because you saw my post and wanted to try to rebut it? Why did you want to rebut it? Because of your faith which has been instilled in you by your experiences over the years.
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48805 on: October 31, 2023, 12:21:53 PM »
Professor Davey - in reply to #48798

I fully appreciate what you are saying about the fact that quoting a handful of converts in no way offers evidence for the validity of my fail belief.

I was using the example of witnesses to conversion in the face of lifelong indoctrination to counter Torridon's argument about people's faith being defined by the environment they were brought up in.  I was simply pointing out that people have freedom to reject past teachings and discern what they truly believe to be the truth based on their own freedom to contemplate the factors involved.  Most of my own childhood friends from school have come to reject their RC faith because they have the God given freedom to do so.

It was simply an argument for the reality of our human free will.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48806 on: October 31, 2023, 12:27:15 PM »
Yes, but how do you choose? This post of yours, for example, didn't you choose to write it because you saw my post and wanted to try to rebut it?
I could have chosen to ignore it - I was not compelled to reply.
Quote
Why did you want to rebut it? Because of your faith which has been instilled in you by your experiences over the years.
I chose to reply because I was inspired to witness to what I sincerely believe to be the truth.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48807 on: October 31, 2023, 12:45:04 PM »
Professor Davey - in reply to #48798

I fully appreciate what you are saying about the fact that quoting a handful of converts in no way offers evidence for the validity of my fail belief.
I made no comment about the validity of faith claims. My comments were entirely about your claims of 'growing' numbers of converts from non christian religions to christianity - claims which seem to be based on nothing more than vague (and unsubstantiated) anecdote without a scrap of genuine evidence to support those claims. Indeed the actual evidence is very clear for new conversion away from christianity, most notable towards no religion but also to a lesser extent away from christianity and towards other non christian religions, rather than the other way around.

It seems deeply disingenuous (at best) to focus entirely on those converting to christianity, while quietly ignoring the far, far greater numbers who reject christianity, mostly to become non religious.

I was using the example of witnesses to conversion in the face of lifelong indoctrination to counter Torridon's argument about people's faith being defined by the environment they were brought up in.
But Torriden's point is backed up by the evidence. Not counting moving between different christian denominations (which isn't really conversion between religions) conversion to a particular religion amongst those not brought up in that religion is tiny. Look at the link I posted - for the major christian denominations (Anglican, Catholic, Methodist, Baptist) typically 98% (or more) of current adherents were brought up christian.

The only conversion that happens in significant numbers is conversion from religion to non religion.

I was simply pointing out that people have freedom to reject past teachings and discern what they truly believe to be the truth based on their own freedom to contemplate the factors involved. Most of my own childhood friends from school have come to reject their RC faith because they have the God given freedom to do so.
So do you accept that the vastly greater numbers of people who reject catholicism in favour of not being religious are doing so because the are also following what they consider to be true - in other words that they are rejecting that catholicism leads them to the truth and considering that a non religious outlook leads them to the truth.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2023, 12:47:45 PM by ProfessorDavey »

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48808 on: October 31, 2023, 02:05:20 PM »
"emergent consciousness" is just a meaningless phrase with no valid explanation of what it comprises or how it works.
No doubt you will say the same about our human soul.

I do say it.
Additionally the human soul requires magic to work, therefore it fails miserably.
Given that fact the remainder of your reply can be dismissed.
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48809 on: October 31, 2023, 02:34:55 PM »
Of course people have reasons to believe in what they have consciously discerned to be the truth.
These reasons are formulated within our conscious awareness by being able to contemplate what we perceive with our physical senses and consciously guide our thought processes to reach verifiable conclusions.  To imply (as you have in previous posts) that all this goes on within our subconscious brain activity before we become aware of it simply beggars belief.

However, we do not 'formulate' our desires, nor our hopes, aspirations, fears etc.  These emotions arise within us in response to our various interactions with the world.  So the muslim convert is acting on a growing desire within to follow the path of Islam.  Likewise the christian convert.  In neither case do they choose to have these desires arise within them.  Can you really not see this ? Have you ever come across anyone, anywhere, that could choose what desires to have ?  I am sure you have not, as the concept even makes no sense.  And whenever we make a choice, we are discerning and acting on the uppermost desire at the time.

jeremyp

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48810 on: October 31, 2023, 03:47:31 PM »
I could have chosen to ignore it - I was not compelled to reply.I chose to reply because I was inspired to witness to what I sincerely believe to be the truth.

You were inspired? By what?

You chose to reply because some external factor (you would probably call it God) inspired you to do so.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48811 on: October 31, 2023, 03:55:22 PM »
AB,

Quote
My God given freedom to choose what I write.

So let’s pause and sum up shall we?

You believe yourself to have knowledge of a suite of religious claims of fact (“God”, “soul”, “Satan”, “angels” etc). You really think these things objectively exist – ie, they’re real both for you and for everyone else too.  If any claim to knowledge is to be taken seriously however, it needs to be justified – first for the claimant, and second for the audience the claimant expects to agree with him.

Absent such justification(s), all you have is unqualified claims – essentially just guessing.

This is epistemology 101, so you will grant me this much at least I hope?

OK then, how should claims of fact be justified? When it comes to religions, there are it seems two approaches: faith and reason.

So if we consider faith first, anyone can have a deep and genuine faith about anything. You can tell me that you think god is real because that’s your faith, and the next person can tell me that leprechauns are real because that’s his faith. For epistemological purposes therefore “faith” is worthless – not only does it give the audience nothing to evaluate and consider, it gives the claimant nothing to evaluate and consider either. It's just a strongly held but not justified opinion, nothing more.

So that leaves reason as the remaining option you have to justify your claims. So what happens when you try to reason your way to justifying your religious factual claims?       

That’s simple – the attempt always ends in disaster. You lack the ability to construct even a simple logically robust justifying argument (despite having claimed to have “thought deeply” about such matters) and so you always collapse into either one or multiple fallacies – the argumentum and consequentiam, the post hoc ergo propter hoc, confirmation bias, survivor bias and (wearyingly) so forth.

When your attempts to reason your way to justification fail (as they always do) this leaves you with some further options. The first is to address the falsifications you’re given, and then either to rebut them or to abandon their use in future. You never do this though – to my recollection not once in all the countless times you’ve repeated the same mistakes in reasoning over and over again have you ever tried to address the falsifications you’ve been given.

Not once.

So what do you do instead? What you do is one of two things: either complain that logic is all “man-made” in any case, and so cannot therefore have anything to say to your faith claims. Or just ignore the problem and revert to your safe place of blind faith claims (“My God given freedom to choose what I write” etc) whereby your premise and you conclusion collapse into the same thing.

So if we take these responses in turn, if you think that logic is “man-made” and so irrelevant for the purpose of justifying your faith claims why continue with attempting it incompetently? If you can’t reason your way to your conclusions competently (and it seems you can’t) but you think reason is irrelevant in any case what do you think continually making wrong arguments will achieve? All that happens – has always happened in fact – is that your wrong arguments are quickly identified and shot down. And when you ignore that problem and just repeat the same wrong arguments it only makes you look dishonest or foolish. Or both.

So when you finally run out of road and give up the attempt even at demonstrably wrong arguments, you scuttle back to blind faith claims instead – to which the only sensible reply is “so what”? Why should anyone care what your unqualified faith beliefs are – indeed why should you care given that you have no means of justifying them even to yourself?

In short, if all you have is wrong arguments and blind faith claims but you hope to justify your beliefs nonetheless then you really need to come up with another tack as this one plainly isn’t working. 

Good luck with that.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2023, 03:59:55 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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Dicky Underpants

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48812 on: October 31, 2023, 04:57:27 PM »
Of course people have reasons to believe in what they have consciously discerned to be the truth.
These reasons are formulated within our conscious awareness by being able to contemplate what we perceive with our physical senses and consciously guide our thought processes to reach verifiable conclusions.  To imply (as you have in previous posts) that all this goes on within our subconscious brain activity before we become aware of it simply beggars belief.

I suppose it goes against the grain of most people to think that they are such puppets of deterministic processes, yet most of the 'determinists' here, including Nearly Sane and bluehillside, concede that they still act as if they were making important conscious decisions to guide their lives. The difficulty for such determinists is to continue their everyday existence whilst realising that this is not really what is happening in the human organism, but the latter two (to me at least) seem to manage all that whilst appearing wholesome, functioning individuals :). We have long known since the 19th century the influence of the unconscious mind (Freud, Jung, Adler, Nietzsche and E. von Hartmann, to name a few) on how we live our lives, and the idea that those who are severely traumatised could simply consciously 'will' themselves to break free from their unconscious fetters, is surely absurd. Many people need help, many people are so traumatised that they can never live an ordinary everyday life again.

Still, you were talking about making conscious decisions to guide our thought processes to reach verifiable conclusions. As most of the 'determinists' here know, even this has been found to be without any universal foundation:

https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=2f9c6b6d52367327JmltdHM9MTY5ODcxMDQwMCZpZ3VpZD0wMmEwNjVhZC1mM2JjLTYxNWEtMzE3Ny03NjE2ZjIxZTYwYzAmaW5zaWQ9NTI0OQ&ptn=3&hsh=3&fclid=02a065ad-f3bc-615a-3177-7616f21e60c0&psq=Subconscious+brain+activity+determining+aour+actions+before+conscious+awareness&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubmF0aW9uYWxnZW9ncmFwaGljLmNvbS9zY2llbmNlL2FydGljbGUvdW5jb25zY2lvdXMtYnJhaW4tYWN0aXZpdHktc2hhcGVzLW91ci1kZWNpc2lvbnM&ntb=1

I noted in one or two links on these matters that the scientists involved in such investigations were reluctant to assert that all our conscious decisions can be reduced to previous unconscious brain activity, though. So there may be some hope for your assertions of free will for all, though 'ghosts in the machine' are not going to help you very much.

Besides, Christianity itself is not very big on free will - or rather is very contradictory about it. St Paul (Letter to the Romans and elsewhere) is always talking about "those whom God did predestinate", "Who shall lay any charge against God's elect".
And you also have the words of Christ himself:

"The wind bloweth wheresoever it listeth... So it is with everyone born of the Spirit"
« Last Edit: October 31, 2023, 05:22:26 PM by Dicky Underpants »
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48813 on: October 31, 2023, 07:22:27 PM »
Hi Dicky,

Quote
I suppose it goes against the grain of most people to think that they are such puppets of deterministic processes, yet most of the 'determinists' here, including Nearly Sane and bluehillside, concede that they still act as if they were making important conscious decisions to guide their lives. The difficulty for such determinists is to continue their everyday existence whilst realising that this is not really what is happening in the human organism, but the latter two (to me at least) seem to manage all that whilst appearing wholesome, functioning individuals .

Thank you!  Just to say that I don’t see any particular difficulty with that though – just as I see no difficulty with acting as if the sun rises and sets even though I know that it does no such thing.

What’s curious to me though is that some like AB need an essentially solipsistic model of the universe – “a god really, really cares about little me!” – for their lives to have “meaning”. Time and again he tries the argumentum ad consequentiam fallacy along the lines of, “but if the universe was indifferent to me my life would be meaningless, therefore God” though I have no idea why he thinks that. I find life to be perfectly meaningful thanks even though I know it’s all deterministic and there’s no sky Daddy to tell me he loves me by helping me find my car keys.   

Ah well.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48814 on: October 31, 2023, 07:29:10 PM »
I made no comment about the validity of faith claims. My comments were entirely about your claims of 'growing' numbers of converts from non christian religions to christianity - claims which seem to be based on nothing more than vague (and unsubstantiated) anecdote without a scrap of genuine evidence to support those claims. Indeed the actual evidence is very clear for new conversion away from christianity, most notable towards no religion but also to a lesser extent away from christianity and towards other non christian religions, rather than the other way around.

It seems deeply disingenuous (at best) to focus entirely on those converting to christianity, while quietly ignoring the far, far greater numbers who reject christianity, mostly to become non religious.
But Torriden's point is backed up by the evidence. Not counting moving between different christian denominations (which isn't really conversion between religions) conversion to a particular religion amongst those not brought up in that religion is tiny. Look at the link I posted - for the major christian denominations (Anglican, Catholic, Methodist, Baptist) typically 98% (or more) of current adherents were brought up christian.

The only conversion that happens in significant numbers is conversion from religion to non religion.
So do you accept that the vastly greater numbers of people who reject catholicism in favour of not being religious are doing so because the are also following what they consider to be true - in other words that they are rejecting that catholicism leads them to the truth and considering that a non religious outlook leads them to the truth.

Moreover, according to a 2017 paper from Pew Research which looked at the trends in global landscape of religious affiliiation and distinguishing between 'natural' change (due to birth rates etc) and conversions concluded that between 2015 and 2020 Islam grew by 0.3% as a result of religious conversions whereas Christianity shrank by 7%. In other words, in terms of the change due to religious conversions, Christianity is shrinking at more that 20 times the speed that Islam is growing.

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2017/04/05/the-changing-global-religious-landscape/pf-04-05-2017_-projectionsupdate-00-08/

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48815 on: October 31, 2023, 09:36:16 PM »
Moreover, according to a 2017 paper from Pew Research which looked at the trends in global landscape of religious affiliiation and distinguishing between 'natural' change (due to birth rates etc) and conversions concluded that between 2015 and 2020 Islam grew by 0.3% as a result of religious conversions whereas Christianity shrank by 7%. In other words, in terms of the change due to religious conversions, Christianity is shrinking at more that 20 times the speed that Islam is growing.

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2017/04/05/the-changing-global-religious-landscape/pf-04-05-2017_-projectionsupdate-00-08/
Interesting too that, similar to the UK, globally conversion to non religion runs way ahead of conversion to either islam or christianity. Even clearer in this figure:

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2017/04/05/the-changing-global-religious-landscape/pf_17-04-05_projectionsupdate_switching640px/
« Last Edit: October 31, 2023, 09:41:22 PM by ProfessorDavey »

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48816 on: November 01, 2023, 12:39:45 PM »
I do say it.
Additionally the human soul requires magic to work, therefore it fails miserably.
Given that fact the remainder of your reply can be dismissed.
The human soul works through the power God has given it.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48817 on: November 01, 2023, 01:07:53 PM »
AB,

Quote
The human soul works through the power God has given it.

To justify that assertion you need to demonstrate your claims "soul", "God", and the "giving of power" by the latter to the former. Until you do that, all you have is a blind faith claim.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48818 on: November 01, 2023, 01:14:02 PM »
The human soul works through the power God has given it.
Oh no it doesn't!

Where's God.? He's behind you, oh and in front of you, and on either side of you and up your arse.
 Oh no he isn't!

I didn't come here to have my god insulted!
Where do you usually go?

(It's surely close enough to panto season)

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48819 on: November 01, 2023, 01:24:00 PM »
The human soul works through the power God has given it.
Before can justify any claim of a relationship between two entities you will first need to demonstrate that those two things, namely a soul and god, actually exist. Otherwise you claim is as meaningless as asserting that leprechauns always do the shopping for unicorns on Saturdays.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48820 on: November 01, 2023, 01:28:34 PM »
Prof,

Quote
Otherwise you claim is as meaningless as asserting that leprechauns always do the shopping for unicorns on Saturdays.

It's Wednesdays you blasphemer.

Kill him! Kill him!
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48821 on: November 01, 2023, 01:41:46 PM »
However, we do not 'formulate' our desires, nor our hopes, aspirations, fears etc.  These emotions arise within us in response to our various interactions with the world.  So the muslim convert is acting on a growing desire within to follow the path of Islam.  Likewise the christian convert.  In neither case do they choose to have these desires arise within them.  Can you really not see this ? Have you ever come across anyone, anywhere, that could choose what desires to have ?  I am sure you have not, as the concept even makes no sense.  And whenever we make a choice, we are discerning and acting on the uppermost desire at the time.
We all have emotions and desires within us.  We also have the God given freedom to consciously choose how to cope and deal with our emotions and desires - they do not control us - we have control.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48822 on: November 01, 2023, 01:52:07 PM »
We also have the God given freedom to consciously choose how to cope and deal with our emotions and desires - they do not control us - we have control.
Come back when you have proven that god exists. Until or unless you do so that claim is mere unevidenced assertions.


Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48823 on: November 01, 2023, 02:09:08 PM »
AB,

To justify that assertion you need to demonstrate your claims "soul", "God", and the "giving of power" by the latter to the former. Until you do that, all you have is a blind faith claim.
I have the consciously driven freedom needed to to think, speculate, choose, contemplate, witness, praise, pray, worship, draw conclusions, imagine, criticise, ridicule .... I could go on .  The conscious freedom which you claim does not exist because your short sighted materialistic view deems it to be a logical impossibility.   Until you can come up with a feasible explanation for how all these things can just bubble up from material reactions beyond your conscious control .... ???
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48824 on: November 01, 2023, 02:49:26 PM »
AB,

Quote
I have the consciously driven freedom needed to to think, speculate, choose, contemplate, witness, praise, pray, worship, draw conclusions, imagine, criticise, ridicule .... I could go on .  The conscious freedom which you claim does not exist because your short sighted materialistic view deems it to be a logical impossibility.   Until you can come up with a feasible explanation for how all these things can just bubble up from material reactions beyond your conscious control ....   

in Reply 48811 I recently set out the various mistakes just you’ve repeated here.

If you can’t or won’t make a logically coherent justification for your religious beliefs and rely instead on blind faith claims then those beliefs can be dismissed out-of-hand.

You need instead either to find a logical argument that isn’t wrong, or to abandon the effort and find another means of justifying your unqualified claims and assertions.   

Good luck with it though.
"Don't make me come down there."

God