Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3875857 times)

Sebastian Toe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7718
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48825 on: November 01, 2023, 03:02:48 PM »
The human soul works through the power God has given it.
The biological brain works through the result of millennia of evolution.
No magic required.
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17582
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48826 on: November 01, 2023, 04:03:17 PM »
I have the consciously driven freedom needed to to think, speculate, choose, contemplate, witness, praise, pray, worship, draw conclusions, imagine, criticise, ridicule .... I could go on .  The conscious freedom which you claim does not exist because your short sighted materialistic view deems it to be a logical impossibility.   Until you can come up with a feasible explanation for how all these things can just bubble up from material reactions beyond your conscious control .... ???
You do understand the burden of proof, do you AB?

You have made a positive claim and therefore the burden of proof rests entirely with you. It is not up to us to prove you are wrong, it is up to you to prove you are correct, which will require credible evidence to support your various (currently unevidenced) claims.

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48827 on: November 01, 2023, 05:50:44 PM »
Prof,

Quote
You do understand the burden of proof, do you AB?

If only...

AB's entire position rests on "I don't understand how X could be, therefore X is impossible". It never seems to cross his mind that calling something impossible because he doesn't understand it is a statement of his incredulity but nothing more. This has been explained to him six bajillion and three times at the last count but the explanation always falls on deaf ears.

Ah well.     
"Don't make me come down there."

God

torridon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10209
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48828 on: November 02, 2023, 06:50:23 AM »
We all have emotions and desires within us.  We also have the God given freedom to consciously choose how to cope and deal with our emotions and desires - they do not control us - we have control.

And how do we cope with our emotions ? Whatever choice we make to 'cope' with our emotion will reflect the way that we most desire to cope with them.  Really, Alan, this is not really so difficult that you should be still struggling to comprehend this basic aspect of how our minds work.

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48829 on: November 02, 2023, 07:55:43 AM »
And how do we cope with our emotions ? Whatever choice we make to 'cope' with our emotion will reflect the way that we most desire to cope with them.  Really, Alan, this is not really so difficult that you should be still struggling to comprehend this basic aspect of how our minds work.
One thing is certain, Torri.
My emotions and desires, and how I choose to deal with them would be entirely different if I did not have my Christian faith.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48830 on: November 02, 2023, 08:56:39 AM »
Prof,

If only...

AB's entire position rests on "I don't understand how X could be, therefore X is impossible".
Your entire position rests on "I don't understand how human free will works, so I declare it to be a logical impossibility"
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

torridon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10209
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48831 on: November 02, 2023, 09:08:45 AM »
One thing is certain, Torri.
My emotions and desires, and how I choose to deal with them would be entirely different if I did not have my Christian faith.

Yes, and that is what has been pointed out at length.  We are all products of our nature and nurture and there is no escaping this fact.  Every person responds in their own way according to their past experience.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2023, 09:21:51 AM by torridon »

ekim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5811
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48832 on: November 02, 2023, 09:14:00 AM »
One thing is certain, Torri.
My emotions and desires, and how I choose to deal with them would be entirely different if I did not have my Christian faith.
What that seems to indicate is that your choices are now determined by a desire to follow a doctrine and so your notion of free will is still not valid.  It is just attached to a different desire.

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48833 on: November 02, 2023, 09:22:07 AM »
Yes, and that is what has been pointed out at length.  We are all products of our nature and nurture and there is no escaping this fact.  Eevery person responds in their own way according to their past experience.
Every person has the freedom to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and saviour.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32495
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48834 on: November 02, 2023, 09:24:41 AM »
Every person has the freedom to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and saviour.

I don't. I can't accept Jesus as my saviour because there is no evidence he still exists and the doctrine of Christianity is incoherent.
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18266
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48835 on: November 02, 2023, 09:36:46 AM »
Every person has the freedom to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and saviour.

Only if they are also inclined to suspend all their critical faculties.

torridon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10209
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48836 on: November 02, 2023, 09:45:53 AM »
Every person has the freedom to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and saviour.
And in the same sense, every person also has the freedom to follow the path of Islam or to follow the path of Buddhism, upholding The Four Noble Truths.  Whichever path you actually take in life will depend on your nature and your experiences to date, hence we observe diversity in human thought and deed.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64317
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48837 on: November 02, 2023, 09:50:23 AM »
Only if they are also inclined to suspend all their critical faculties.
I don't think someone being a Christian means they have done so. They may have a personal experience that leads them to it. Given the numbers of religious people, whatever critical faculties are typical in humans seem to lead to some form of belief. As ever I think in areas like this, we post rationalise what we believe rather than use critical faculties to get there.

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48838 on: November 02, 2023, 10:16:41 AM »
AB,

Quote
Your entire position rests on "I don't understand how human free will works, so I declare it to be a logical impossibility"

Wrong again. I do understand enough about logical argument to know that the arguments you attempt to justify your notion of “free” will are wrong. I also understand that when you don’t bother trying at least to justify it with wrong arguments (and collapse instead into blind faith claims) it’s still logically impossible for the reasons that have been set out for you here countless times and that you routinely ignore. 

I set out your basic mistakes in principle in Reply 48811, which you’ve also ignored.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48839 on: November 02, 2023, 10:23:26 AM »
NS,

Quote
I don't think someone being a Christian means they have done so.

That can true - some may not have these critical faculties to begin with. Others though do, and when people like AB try to persuade these people of their beliefs with hopelessly wrong arguments then suspending critical faculties (if such a thing is even possible) would be the only way to agree with him. 
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64317
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48840 on: November 02, 2023, 10:34:07 AM »
NS,

That can true - some may not have these critical faculties to begin with. Others though do, and when people like AB try to persuade these people of their beliefs with hopelessly wrong arguments then suspending critical faculties (if such a thing is even possible) would be the only way to agree with him.
Surely though Alan, as with the rest of us, doesn't choose his beliefs?

Any reason why you edited out the rest of my post?

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48841 on: November 02, 2023, 10:49:40 AM »
NS,

Quote
Surely though Alan, as with the rest of us, doesn't choose his beliefs?

But now we’re back to the “it’s all deterministic” vs “nonetheless we act as though it’s non-deterministic” paradox. In the latter paradigm at least though, so far as I can tell AB seems to be at least aware enough of logical fallacies to know not to fall for them when used to justify, say, Allah or leprechauns, but he also attempts exactly the same fallacies to justify his own faith beliefs.

I just find that curious.     

Quote
Any reason why you edited out the rest of my post?

Yes – I had nothing to say about that part (!). “Personal experiences” though leads us into “the map is not the terrain” territory. We create narratives to explain our experiences, but those narratives need justification. Did I actually see a ghost floating down the street two nights ago, or was it just a carrier bag caught by the wind? Hmmm…   
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Enki

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3870
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48842 on: November 02, 2023, 11:11:36 AM »
Your entire position rests on "I don't understand how human free will works, so I declare it to be a logical impossibility"

That's not really true, is it? Your version of 'free will' comes up against logical problems which you've never been able to deal with, except to call upon the entirely unevidenced 'soul' and 'god' ideas which have no explanatory value whatever. So, isn't it reasonable to ask you to explain the logic which makes your version of free will possible and until that explanation arrives to take the much more solid path of determinism or at least adequate determinism? If not, why not?
Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
Steven Wright

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48843 on: November 02, 2023, 01:03:09 PM »
AB,

Wrong again. I do understand enough about logical argument to know that the arguments you attempt to justify your notion of “free” will are wrong.
Wrong.
You do not know enough about the workings of the human mind to make this claim.
However you should know enough about your own capabilities to realise that your gift of free will iws no illusion.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48844 on: November 02, 2023, 02:36:53 PM »
AB,

Quote
Wrong.

Let’s see shall we?

Quote
You do not know enough about the workings of the human mind to make this claim.

I don’t need to, any more than I need to know about the “workings” of other interacting phenomena from which emergent properties also arise. I don’t for example need to know the inner working of a termite’s brain to have a perfectly robust explanation for how it is that termite mounds have properties more complex than those of any termite’s brain. 

Quote
However you should know enough about your own capabilities to realise that your gift of free will iws no illusion.

My “own capabilities” are a subjective story I tell myself about my experience of “free” will. For centuries such stories were considered as objectively true as stories about the sun rising and setting every day and diseases being caused by evil spirits were objectively true. Fortunately however we now have more coherent and cogent explanations for what’s actually happening that give us paths from the subjective to the objective.

You on the other hand seem to be permanently and wilfully marooned in privileging your subjective experience of “free” will as if it was an objectively justified explanation despite the logic that falsifies you and that you continue just to ignore.

I explained to you your fundamental mistakes even in principle back in Reply 48811, which you also continue to ignore.   
"Don't make me come down there."

God

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17582
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48845 on: November 02, 2023, 02:37:10 PM »
Every person has the freedom to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and saviour.
Sure I could decide right now to say that I accept Jesus as Lord and saviour. Similarly right now AB, you could say that all the purported stuff about Jesus is a pile of tripe.

But that isn't what were are talking about because it would have no meaning. For those statements to have any credence they'd have to be based on a genuine belief that Jesus is Lord and saviour or on a genuine belief that all the purported stuff about Jesus is a pile of tripe. And we cannot simply turn on or off our beliefs. So I accept AB, that you genuinely believe that claims of christianity, similarly I trust you also accept that I genuinely do not believe that god exists. And neither of us would simply be able to click our fingers and believe the opposite.

AB, do you really think that in the next five minutes you can choose to believe that god doesn't exist and then choose to believe that god exists for the next five etc, etc? That makes no sense whatsoever.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2023, 03:45:34 PM by ProfessorDavey »

Sebastian Toe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7718
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48846 on: November 02, 2023, 03:45:03 PM »
Wrong.
You do not know enough about the workings of the human mind to make this claim.

Do you know enough about the workings of your "soul" to make your claims?
Because I'd really be interested in you telling me how it works.
By the way, Goddoesit and/or magic don't count as workings.
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17582
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48847 on: November 02, 2023, 04:04:05 PM »
Prof,

If only...

AB's entire position rests on "I don't understand how X could be, therefore X is impossible". It never seems to cross his mind that calling something impossible because he doesn't understand it is a statement of his incredulity but nothing more. This has been explained to him six bajillion and three times at the last count but the explanation always falls on deaf ears.

Ah well.   
There is another element, which is that AB seems unable to think beyond the notion that god exists, souls exist etc and there argues on that basis that these things are universally accepted and therefore require no justification when dropped into a claim. Rather they are unevidenced conjecture and therefore must be demonstrated to be the case prior to being used within a more complex argument.

So rather than a priori acceptance of these claims (which AB fails to be able to get beyond) we enter the world of if god exists and if god is as described in the bible (albeit that in itself is somewhat confusing) and if souls exist then certain things follow. We might all accept that proposition on those starting point assumptions of if - but many of us simply don't accept those starting point propositions which seem rather more fundamental than the relationship between things not proven to exist. It is a how many angels can dance on the head of a pin type argument - point being the whole proposition is totally pointless until or unless you demonstrate that angels exist in the first place.

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48848 on: November 02, 2023, 07:00:08 PM »
Hi Prof,

Quote
There is another element, which is that AB seems unable to think beyond the notion that god exists, souls exist etc and there argues on that basis that these things are universally accepted and therefore require no justification when dropped into a claim. Rather they are unevidenced conjecture and therefore must be demonstrated to be the case prior to being used within a more complex argument.

So rather than a priori acceptance of these claims (which AB fails to be able to get beyond) we enter the world of if god exists and if god is as described in the bible (albeit that in itself is somewhat confusing) and if souls exist then certain things follow. We might all accept that proposition on those starting point assumptions of if - but many of us simply don't accept those starting point propositions which seem rather more fundamental than the relationship between things not proven to exist. It is a how many angels can dance on the head of a pin type argument - point being the whole proposition is totally pointless until or unless you demonstrate that angels exist in the first place.

Quite so. What’s odd is that he has a series of unshakeable faith beliefs (God, souls, Satan, angels etc) that he then tries to justify with reason and argument, but incompetently – ie, his reasoning is always wrong. When he’s told why he’s wrong though rather than engage with the falsifications he’s given he immediately retreats to just repeating the same faith belief premises as if they’d already been justified.

This of course is just circular reasoning – his premise and his conclusion are the same thing without proving anything – but when that’s explained to him too his last throw of the dice is generally “but logic is all man-made anyway so doesn’t count” even though he was trying to use it hitherto.

It’s all a bit rum I find, but there it is nonetheless.   
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #48849 on: November 02, 2023, 10:51:58 PM »
Sure I could decide right now to say that I accept Jesus as Lord and saviour. Similarly right now AB, you could say that all the purported stuff about Jesus is a pile of tripe.

But that isn't what were are talking about because it would have no meaning. For those statements to have any credence they'd have to be based on a genuine belief that Jesus is Lord and saviour or on a genuine belief that all the purported stuff about Jesus is a pile of tripe. And we cannot simply turn on or off our beliefs. So I accept AB, that you genuinely believe that claims of christianity, similarly I trust you also accept that I genuinely do not believe that god exists. And neither of us would simply be able to click our fingers and believe the opposite.

AB, do you really think that in the next five minutes you can choose to believe that god doesn't exist and then choose to believe that god exists for the next five etc, etc? That makes no sense whatsoever.
All we can do is sincerely seek the truth behind our existence.  What I endeavour to do is to remove some of the false barriers which people encounter in order to help them to discover the true meaning of their existence.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton