Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3874115 times)

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #49700 on: February 20, 2024, 06:51:54 PM »
Two recent talks from John Lennox on topics discussed on this thread
Did the universe come from nothing?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQ5P0eOdruQ

Christian faith cannot be classed as blind faith - it is evidence based
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M51s63YBJLg

So according to Lennox, this evidence for the christian faith lies in the claims written in the Bible.  He needs to do better than make circular arguments and then call them evidence.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #49701 on: March 27, 2024, 05:45:50 PM »
So according to Lennox, this evidence for the christian faith lies in the claims written in the Bible.  He needs to do better than make circular arguments and then call them evidence.
I'm still often surprised at how bad the arguments are in these things. I'm sure Lennox is a lovely chap but this sort of stuff is so tediously inept.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2024, 05:53:40 PM by Nearly Sane »

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #49702 on: March 27, 2024, 07:28:10 PM »
I've often asked on those who consider the NT claims to be historical events on what basis they have dealt with the lack of provenance and the risks of mistakes/lies - I've yet to receive an answer that isn't dressed-up special pleading.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #49703 on: April 01, 2024, 10:55:26 PM »
I've often asked on those who consider the NT claims to be historical events on what basis they have dealt with the lack of provenance and the risks of mistakes/lies - I've yet to receive an answer that isn't dressed-up special pleading.
I recently came across an investigation which claims that there are four times more historical records verifying the reality of Jesus Christ than those verifying the reality of Caesar Augustus who lived at the same time.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #49704 on: April 02, 2024, 06:08:10 AM »
I recently came across an investigation which claims that there are four times more historical records verifying the reality of Jesus Christ than those verifying the reality of Caesar Augustus who lived at the same time.
"Never mind the quality, feel the width"

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #49705 on: April 02, 2024, 07:24:20 AM »
I recently came across an investigation which claims that there are four times more historical records verifying the reality of Jesus Christ than those verifying the reality of Caesar Augustus who lived at the same time.

Citation please.

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #49706 on: April 02, 2024, 07:37:09 AM »
I recently came across an investigation which claims that there are four times more historical records verifying the reality of Jesus Christ than those verifying the reality of Caesar Augustus who lived at the same time.

I hadn't realised that there were coins from the period showing Jesus.

As said, a link to the report would be good so we can assess the accuracy of this claim. However, even if Jesus existed, which I consider very likely, that doesn't mean the stories written about him are true.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #49707 on: April 02, 2024, 07:41:46 AM »
Citation please.
It'll be a variation of this

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/sources-for-caesar-and-jesus-compared/


To which this is a good reply

"This is occasionally claimed by Christians apologists, but the answer is: absolutely not.

Caesar was, as you imply, widely famous as a general and politician, and also belonged to a highly literate social class, very much unlike Jesus. There are several surviving works written by people who personally knew Caesar, during or shortly after his lifetime: Caesar's own books obviously; the letters and speeches of Cicero, who met the man regularly and was his political opponent; the Conspiracy of Catiline by Sallust, who was a partisan of and officer under him; and the author who completed Caesar's Gallic War and wrote about his other campaigns (likely his officer Hirtius). For Jesus, essentially the evidence is the letters of Paul, who did not know him before the crucifixion and wrote 20 years later; as well as the Gospels, which modern scholarship has found were written at least 40 years later, and not by anyone who knew Jesus either (most later sources about Jesus are based on the Gospels or Christian legends).

What is more, we are aware of multiple lost works by contemporary authors discussing Caesar, who are cited in Suetonius' and Plutarch's biographies of him. And there are also of course mentions of him by later authors too (I made a list of sources mentioning Caesar's campaigns that I can post if you are interested). In addition, we have a type of evidence that is completely absent with Jesus: contemporary coins and inscriptions. There were coins made depicting Julius Caesar in his lifetime, displaying both his facial features and his various titles (consul, pontifex maximus, dictator, parens patriae &c): some examples here. As for inscriptions, there are several made in his lifetime by cities honouring him or quoting one of his decrees. Some Greek examples include (helpfully online on Attalus!): SIG 760, the Ephesians honouring him; SIG 759, the Athenians doing the same, SIG 763, a Cyzicene eunuch-priest praying for his partner who was serving under Caesar in Africa, and SEG 39.1290, the Sardians recording a decree by Caesar concerning their temple.

This is of course about what we can expect when comparing the historical evidence for a major world leader, and a local preacher in a distant province.

One claim Christians sometimes make is that we have more manuscript evidence for Jesus than other figures of Antiquity. This is indeed true: there are many more copies of biblical texts than "pagan" ones, because every book-collection in the Christian world would have included Bibles. For more on that, see this thread by me and u/qed1. And manuscript reliability says little about historical reliability: we have far more copies of Virgil Maro's Aeneid than the histories of Tacitus, but of course that does not make Aeneas more historical than say, Tiberius Caesar.

In truth, there is enough evidence to conclude that both Jesus and Caesar were historical people. But the vastly more material we have for Caesar makes the details of his life much more certain than Jesus'."


And, of course, as has been covered many times the study of history is methodologically naturalistic, and the 'miracle' claims have no means of being evaluated.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #49708 on: April 02, 2024, 07:43:08 AM »
I hadn't realised that there were coins from the period showing Jesus.

As said, a link to the report would be good so we can assess the accuracy of this claim. However, even if Jesus existed, which I consider very likely, that doesn't mean the stories written about him are true.
Neither, of course, are the ones about any Caesars being gods.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #49709 on: April 02, 2024, 01:36:05 PM »

One example of compelling evidence for the authenticity of the gospels is this snippet from Mark 14:51-52

A young man, wearing nothing but a linen garment, was following Jesus. When they seized him, he fled naked, leaving his garment behind.

This appears to be an irrelevant detail which adds nothing to the story of Jesus' arrest, so why was it included?
Could it be that the young man was Mark himself?

Another view on the authenticity of the resurrection story is the question of why anyone fabricating the story would quote women as being the first witnesses.  At this time women were not considered to be reliable witnesses, yet all four gospels quote women as the first witnesses.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #49710 on: April 02, 2024, 01:44:11 PM »
One example of compelling evidence for the authenticity of the gospels is this snippet from Mark 14:51-52

A young man, wearing nothing but a linen garment, was following Jesus. When they seized him, he fled naked, leaving his garment behind.

This appears to be an irrelevant detail which adds nothing to the story of Jesus' arrest, so why was it included?
Could it be that the young man was Mark himself?

Another view on the authenticity of the resurrection story is the question of why anyone fabricating the story would quote women as being the first witnesses.  At this time women were not considered to be reliable witnesses, yet all four gospels quote women as the first witnesses.

Certainly not compelling. The detail may seem irrelevant to us now but may have had a meaning to whoever wrote the Gospel of Mark.

Women would have been the ones to go and anoint a body so it would make sense as being the first witnesses in any story being told.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2024, 01:49:04 PM by Maeght »

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #49711 on: April 02, 2024, 01:48:54 PM »
I recently came across an investigation which claims that there are four times more historical records verifying the reality of Jesus Christ than those verifying the reality of Caesar Augustus who lived at the same time.
I presume you are talking about contemporary historical records, in which case you are talking complete non-sense.

I live in a city which grew out of a roman settlement. If I trundle off to the roman museum (a 15 min bike ride) there are a range of contemporary historical artefacts in the form of coins etc which provide a contemporaneous historical record for the reality of Caesar Augustus.

By contrast there are no contemporaneous historical records for Jesus anywhere worldwide. The nearest we get are documents purported to have been written decades (or longer) afterwards. But even then we don't have the originals - all we have are extracts and eventually whole documents, which largely date from several hundreds of years after Jesus and Caesar Augustus were around.


Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #49712 on: April 02, 2024, 01:52:33 PM »
One example of compelling evidence for the authenticity of the gospels is this snippet from Mark 14:51-52

A young man, wearing nothing but a linen garment, was following Jesus. When they seized him, he fled naked, leaving his garment behind.

This appears to be an irrelevant detail which adds nothing to the story of Jesus' arrest, so why was it included?
Could it be that the young man was Mark himself?

Another view on the authenticity of the resurrection story is the question of why anyone fabricating the story would quote women as being the first witnesses.  At this time women were not considered to be reliable witnesses, yet all four gospels quote women as the first witnesses.

This is just anecdote without provenance, Alan: evidence it ain't.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #49713 on: April 02, 2024, 01:56:22 PM »
One example of compelling evidence for the authenticity of the gospels is this snippet from Mark 14:51-52

A young man, wearing nothing but a linen garment, was following Jesus. When they seized him, he fled naked, leaving his garment behind.

This appears to be an irrelevant detail which adds nothing to the story of Jesus' arrest, so why was it included?
Could it be that the young man was Mark himself?

Another view on the authenticity of the resurrection story is the question of why anyone fabricating the story would quote women as being the first witnesses.  At this time women were not considered to be reliable witnesses, yet all four gospels quote women as the first witnesses.
Complete speculation and nothing in this provides any compelling evidence for authenticity.

And you will, no doubt, be aware that early extant fragments of Mark are exceptionally rare and do not include this verse. So I image the earliest we have an actual fragment with this text is probably some 300 years after the events were purported to have taken place. We do not know, nor can we know unless earlier fragments appear, whether this text was in any original Mark gospel, still less its provenance back to events of approx CE30.

Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #49714 on: April 02, 2024, 02:32:48 PM »
One example of compelling evidence for the authenticity of the gospels is this snippet from Mark 14:51-52

A young man, wearing nothing but a linen garment, was following Jesus. When they seized him, he fled naked, leaving his garment behind.

Do you have the shirt? Otherwise it's a story about purported evidence rather than evidence itself.

Quote
This appears to be an irrelevant detail which adds nothing to the story of Jesus' arrest, so why was it included?

On that basis Lord of the Rings is the truest story that was ever told! More to the point, however, there's evidence that overly involved details in a story can be an indication of deception (and, equally, that a lack of detail can be an indication - it seems there's a sweet-spot).

Quote
Another view on the authenticity of the resurrection story is the question of why anyone fabricating the story would quote women as being the first witnesses.  At this time women were not considered to be reliable witnesses, yet all four gospels quote women as the first witnesses.

Given that, in comparison to the times, the story of the New Testament is of revolution and revision, it's hardly surprising it would emphasise atypical examples. If it had concentrated more on countering intrinsic misogyny and less on claims of wizardry it'd be a better work, to be honest.

O.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #49715 on: April 02, 2024, 07:07:43 PM »
One example of compelling evidence for the authenticity of the gospels is this snippet from Mark 14:51-52

A young man, wearing nothing but a linen garment, was following Jesus. When they seized him, he fled naked, leaving his garment behind.

This appears to be an irrelevant detail which adds nothing to the story of Jesus' arrest, so why was it included?
Could it be that the young man was Mark himself?

Another view on the authenticity of the resurrection story is the question of why anyone fabricating the story would quote women as being the first witnesses.  At this time women were not considered to be reliable witnesses, yet all four gospels quote women as the first witnesses.
This is a new definition of the word 'evidence'.  And that's never mind that you don't have a methodology to define evidence for the supernatural.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2024, 07:37:22 PM by Nearly Sane »

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #49716 on: April 02, 2024, 07:42:22 PM »
One example of compelling evidence for the authenticity of the gospels is this snippet from Mark 14:51-52

A young man, wearing nothing but a linen garment, was following Jesus. When they seized him, he fled naked, leaving his garment behind.

This appears to be an irrelevant detail which adds nothing to the story of Jesus' arrest, so why was it included?
Could it be that the young man was Mark himself?

Another view on the authenticity of the resurrection story is the question of why anyone fabricating the story would quote women as being the first witnesses.  At this time women were not considered to be reliable witnesses, yet all four gospels quote women as the first witnesses.

I wouldn't have a problem with stories about some bloke running away with no clothes on.  Nothing supernatural about that.  But I don't believe you can extrapolate from some such everyday anecdote to justifying the later fantastical claims about dead people coming back to life. It is the extraordinary claims that demand extraordinary evidence.

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #49717 on: April 02, 2024, 07:56:02 PM »
I think this is where many Christians, as we've seen here, can leap from something unremarkable being possibly true to concluding that something fantastical might equally be true, on the basis that the unremarkable claim could possibly be true.

Thus, if the NT claimed that Jesus once had 'Gruts for tea'*, and he did, this somehow implies that the claim he didn't stay dead is equally true.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iL6pUqJRp5w
« Last Edit: April 02, 2024, 07:58:54 PM by Gordon »

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #49718 on: April 02, 2024, 08:01:51 PM »
I wouldn't have a problem with stories about some bloke running away with no clothes on.  Nothing supernatural about that.  But I don't believe you can extrapolate from some such everyday anecdote to justifying the later fantastical claims about dead people coming back to life. It is the extraordinary claims that demand extraordinary evidence.
The extraordinary evidence lies in the amazing growth of the early Christian faith despite intense  persecution from both the Roman rulers and the Jewish hierarchy.  Without firm evidence of the resurrection there could be no justification for world changing events based upon the brief life of the son of a carpenter who was executed under the authority of both Rome and Jews.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #49719 on: April 02, 2024, 08:09:45 PM »
AB,

Quote
The extraordinary evidence lies in the amazing growth of the early Christian faith despite intense  persecution from both the Roman rulers and the Jewish hierarchy.  Without firm evidence of the resurrection there could be no justification for world changing events based upon the brief life of the son of a carpenter who was executed under the authority of both Rome and Jews.

Wrong again:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias

This is not the first time I’ve had to cite survivor bias to you. What’s the point of people here explaining your mistakes to you when you routinely ignore the explanations rather than learn from them?

"Don't make me come down there."

God

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #49720 on: April 02, 2024, 08:11:51 PM »
The extraordinary evidence lies in the amazing growth of the early Christian faith despite intense  persecution from both the Roman rulers and the Jewish hierarchy.  Without firm evidence of the resurrection there could be no justification for world changing events based upon the brief life of the son of a carpenter who was executed under the authority of both Rome and Jews.

You really are naive Alan if that is what you think.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #49721 on: April 02, 2024, 08:13:38 PM »
The extraordinary evidence lies in the amazing growth of the early Christian faith despite intense  persecution from both the Roman rulers and the Jewish hierarchy.  Without firm evidence of the resurrection there could be no justification for world changing events based upon the brief life of the son of a carpenter who was executed under the authority of both Rome and Jews.
Again, you have no methodology for such a claim so of evidence is either ignorance or lying. And all you've done is presented an argument by incredulity.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2024, 08:17:42 PM by Nearly Sane »

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #49722 on: April 02, 2024, 08:15:10 PM »
Gordon,

Quote
You really are naive Alan if that is what you think.

Or, worse, just too unable or too dishonest to grasp his errors in reasoning.   
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #49723 on: April 02, 2024, 08:22:29 PM »
The extraordinary evidence lies in the amazing growth of the early Christian faith despite intense  persecution from both the Roman rulers and the Jewish hierarchy.  Without firm evidence of the resurrection there could be no justification for world changing events based upon the brief life of the son of a carpenter who was executed under the authority of both Rome and Jews.

Could you provide your evidence for intense persecution from both the Roman rulers and the Jewish hierarchy relating to the early church please?

Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #49724 on: April 02, 2024, 08:47:02 PM »
The extraordinary evidence lies in the amazing growth of the early Christian faith despite intense  persecution from both the Roman rulers and the Jewish hierarchy.

Therefore Islam and Scientology are both true, right?

Quote
Without firm evidence of the resurrection there could be no justification for world changing events based upon the brief life of the son of a carpenter who was executed under the authority of both Rome and Jews.

People believe things without evidence all the time, and implement social and political change based on those beliefs - just take either side in the Brexit debate, for instance. The fact that there are Christians is no more evidence for the resurrection of Jesus than the historical fact of vikings is evidence for Thor.

O.
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