Searching for GOD...

[torridon]

The extraordinary evidence lies in the amazing growth of the early Christian faith despite intense  persecution from both the Roman rulers and the Jewish hierarchy.  Without firm evidence of the resurrection there could be no justification for world changing events based upon the brief life of the son of a carpenter who was executed under the authority of both Rome and Jews.

So, on that basis, and given the even faster spread of Islam through the seventh and eighth centuries, I presume you believe that Prophet Muhammad rode a winged horse through the heavens from Mecca to Jerusalem meeting various prophets along the way before returning at dawn.

[Maeght]

The extraordinary evidence lies in the amazing growth of the early Christian faith despite intense  persecution from both the Roman rulers and the Jewish hierarchy.  Without firm evidence of the resurrection there could be no justification for world changing events based upon the brief life of the son of a carpenter who was executed under the authority of both Rome and Jews.

Should say 'Without a belief in the resurrection' rather than 'Without firm evidence of the resurrection'. People believing something and doing things as a result of those beliefs doesn't mean the beliefs are true. This has been pointed out many times before though and I doubt you will acknowledge it.

[Alan Burns]

So, on that basis, and given the even faster spread of Islam through the seven century and eighth centuries, I presume you believe that Prophet Muhammad rode a winged horse through the heavens from Mecca to Jerusalem meeting various prophets along the way before returning at dawn.

Muhammad would not have been able to jump on the bandwagon of existing Christian faith without the impetus of the resurrection.

[Nearly Sane]

Muhammad would not have been able to jump on the bandwagon of existing Christian faith without the impetus of the resurrection.

Is that like Christianity jumping on the bandwagon of Zoroastrianism?

[Outrider]

Muhammad would not have been able to jump on the bandwagon of existing Christian faith without the impetus of the resurrection.

On the contrary, the truth of Mohammed is that Jesus was 'just' a prophet, and Christianity is false. Surely you accept that this is true given the rapid expansion of Islam?

O.

[torridon]

Muhammad would not have been able to jump on the bandwagon of existing Christian faith without the impetus of the resurrection.

So, once again, you just sidestepped a learning opportunity.

[Alan Burns]

On the contrary, the truth of Mohammed is that Jesus was 'just' a prophet, and Christianity is false. Surely you accept that this is true given the rapid expansion of Islam?

O.

Mohammed had to deny the crucifixion and resurrection in order to elevate himself above Jesus.
And the rapid expansion of Islam was brought about by violence whereas the rapid expansion of Christianity could only be attributed to the resurrection.

[Nearly Sane]

Mohammed had to deny the crucifixion and resurrection in order to elevate himself above Jesus.
And the rapid expansion of Islam was brought about by violence whereas the rapid expansion of Christianity could only be attributed to the resurrection.

Can you put forward a case for your claim that it could only be attributed to the resurrection?

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

...whereas the rapid expansion of Christianity could only be attributed to the resurrection.

Why do you think that's true?

[Gordon]

Can you put forward a case for your claim that it could only be attributed to the resurrection?

So nothing to do with politics, power, tribalism or conquest then?

Sorry NS - I meant quote Alan's post and not yours - another senior moment I'm afraid

[bluehillside Retd.]

Gordon,

So nothing to do with politics, power, tribalism or conquest then?

Or dumb luck either apparently. If AB won the lottery tomorrow he'd presumably convince himself too that he'd been specially chosen to win it, not that Camelot doesn't give a proverbial who wins.   

[Maeght]

Mohammed had to deny the crucifixion and resurrection in order to elevate himself above Jesus.
And the rapid expansion of Islam was brought about by violence whereas the rapid expansion of Christianity could only be attributed to the resurrection.

Belief in the resurrection maybe.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Maeght,

Belief in the resurrection maybe.

No even that. Resurrection stories are commonplace in ancient faith traditions, so there's no particular reason to think that the Jesus iteration of it was the sole cause of the Christian faith surviving when other faiths did not. 

[Maeght]

Maeght,

No even that. Resurrection stories are commonplace in ancient faith traditions, so there's no particular reason to think that the Jesus iteration of it was the sole cause of the Christian faith surviving when other faiths did not.

Indeed. I did say maybe and sure there were other factors equally or more important, such as the promise of salvation and eternal life.

[Alan Burns]

Can you put forward a case for your claim that it could only be attributed to the resurrection?

What else could have motivated His early disciples to face persecution and death in promoting their newfound faith after the crucifixion and death of their leader?  (And there is no record of anyone surviving the dreadful Roman crucifixion,)

[Maeght]

What else could have motivated His early disciples to face persecution and death in promoting their newfound faith after the crucifixion and death of their leader?  (And there is no record of anyone surviving the dreadful Roman crucifixion,)

How do you know they faced persecution and death?

[bluehillside Retd.]

Maeght,

Indeed. I did say maybe and sure there were other factors equally or more important, such as the promise of salvation and eternal life.

Yes, though even then the point about survivor bias is that it ignores the reasons other faiths/products fail and assumes that there's something inherent in the survivor that makes it successful. Very often though the reason for success has nothing to do with the winner - the emperor Constantine for example selecting Christianity as an approved religion ("religio licita") so Christians could praise their God without persecution likely had a great deal to do with it. AB's mistake is to retro-fit the reasons for the success of his preferred religion while ignoring the extraneous reasons that could just as well have applied to one of the competitors.         

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

What else could have motivated His early disciples to face persecution and death in promoting their newfound faith after the crucifixion and death of their leader?  (And there is no record of anyone surviving the dreadful Roman crucifixion,)

Lots of things, not least (as Maeght says) just the belief in, say, a resurrection rather than the actuality of it necessarily. Also though, the "persecution and death" part is questionable, especially after Constantine gave them a free pass. 

[Nearly Sane]

What else could have motivated His early disciples to face persecution and death in promoting their newfound faith after the crucifixion and death of their leader?  (And there is no record of anyone surviving the dreadful Roman crucifixion,)

People die for things all the time, and often for things they are wrong about. And your attempted argument is just you using your incredulity again.

Your post isn't even in the realms of making a logical case.

[Nearly Sane]

AB,

Lots of things, not least (as Maeght says) just the belief in, say, a resurrection rather than the actuality of it necessarily. Also though, the "persecution and death" part is questionable, especially after Constantine gave them a free pass.

I think that Constantine's actions are too far removed in time to be relevant in a case for or against Christianity's spread in terms of Alan's vague unsubstantiated claim.

[bluehillside Retd.]

NS,

I think that Constantine's actions are too far removed in time to be relevant in a case for or against Christianity's spread in terms of Alan's vague unsubstantiated claim.

Constantine converted to Christianity in 312, before which adherents of many nascent faiths suffered awful but sporadic and localized persecutions. His decision to stop the persecution of Christians in the Roman Empire ended that for one of the faiths only, and was accompanied by the officially mandated renewed persecution of competing faiths. It’s hard to know what AB is arguing, but the fact that many faiths survived until Constantine indicates that there was nothing unique about Christianity in that respect, and after Constantine Christianity had all the aces. In short, his “Christianity only succeeded because the resurrection is a fact” is plainly bollocks.

[Nearly Sane]

NS,

Constantine converted to Christianity in 312, before which adherents of many nascent faiths suffered awful but sporadic and localized persecutions. His decision to stop the persecution of Christians in the Roman Empire ended that for one of the faiths only, and was accompanied by the officially mandated renewed persecution of competing faiths. It’s hard to know what AB is arguing, but the fact that many faiths survived until Constantine indicates that there was nothing unique about Christianity in that respect, and after Constantine Christianity had all the aces. In short, his “Christianity only succeeded because the resurrection is a fact” is plainly bollocks.

I think that Alan uses the term rapid here rules out Constantine's actions.

[bluehillside Retd.]

NS,

I think that Alan uses the term rapid here rules out Constantine's actions.

Depends when he means by “rapid” and when he thinks the “rapid expansion” occurred. It was rapid after Constantine (unsurprisingly), but how rapid it was before then compared with other faiths is debatable.

[Nearly Sane]

NS,

Depends when he means by “rapid” and when he thinks the “rapid expansion” occurred. It was rapid after Constantine (unsurprisingly), but how rapid it was before then compared with other faiths is debatable.

Don't think events 280 years after the supposed resurrection can be considered rapid. As already covered, it's a vague claim but in the absence of any details, it's only reasonable to apply normal usage.
 

Given he's also cited persecution, then after Constantine can't apply. Doubly so, since he's ruled out spreading through conquest. I think we probably agree that the claim isn't defined in any level but is not much more than a mantra rolled out without thought.

[torridon]

What else could have motivated His early disciples to face persecution and death in promoting their newfound faith after the crucifixion and death of their leader?  (And there is no record of anyone surviving the dreadful Roman crucifixion,)

Paradoxically, attempts to oppress a belief or ideology often have the oppposte effect, serving to strengthen the oppressed belief.  It's known in psychology as the 'backfire effect'. The Roman authorities attempting to wipe out the early christian groups probably had not factored this in.  We can see the same in Judaism, with the Jews having faced waves of persecution over millennia but they are still present in the world with a sense of identity that has been strengthened by historic persecution.  Ditto Tibetan Buddhism, which is now more widespread throughout the world in part thanks to the attempts by the Chinese Communist Party to eliminate it.  Some people are drawn to support oppressed minorities, so the oppressed belief gains new adherents.  Donald Trump's popularity with his fan base may be due in part to the perception of him as being silenced by the American deep state.