Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3740396 times)

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #49775 on: April 04, 2024, 07:05:57 PM »
Even for you, Vlad, this is especially dim - would you not say that 'actual history' is that which is confirmed by application of the 'historical method' - and that all else is just speculation (informed or otherwise)?
What Vlad means as 'history' here is what actually happened. It could be that there are elements of the supernatural but as covered so often we have no methodology to determine such, and his suggestion of finding a body is then conflating what happened with the method of studying it, so his attack on those is hypocritical. Or it would be if he understands it. His posting does not indicate that level.


« Last Edit: April 04, 2024, 08:10:35 PM by Nearly Sane »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #49776 on: April 05, 2024, 07:38:59 AM »
No, as I explained the default is that nothing happened, and that only gets altered when enough evidence is presented that it seems likely a given event occurred. Your resurrection story currently lacks sufficient evidence, hence it's not considered part of history. Just like the great flood myth, and the Jewish exodus in Egypt, and the fall of the walls of Jericho (but not the existence of Jericho). And unlike, say, the fall of Troy (but like the story of the Trojan Horse).

O.
"Nothing happening, Literally "nothing happening" would be miraculous in itself.Zero reports subsequently about a time when "Nothing actually happened" suggest there was no such non event.

So something must have happened and it is encumbant on history to find out what actually happened and what actually didn't.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #49777 on: April 05, 2024, 08:48:28 AM »
"Nothing happening, Literally "nothing happening" would be miraculous in itself.Zero reports subsequently about a time when "Nothing actually happened" suggest there was no such non event.

So something must have happened and it is encumbant on history to find out what actually happened and what actually didn't.
I think you're misrepresenting Outrider here as he isn't claiming nothing happened. That said, I think the default of the study of history is not that nothing happened but that shit did indeed happen but we can't say anything about what it was till we have done some studying of history.

You earlier made the point to Gordon about conflating what happened with the studying of it, and yet your second paragraph does exactly that. In common usage the meanings are blurred so perhaps we need to be careful here what we are saying.

All of this doesn't change either that in doing history, it is studied on the basis of methodological naturalism, that the resurrection is a non naturalist claim, and therefore is outwith the study of history, and that in the absence of a method to establish the truth of such a claim it is epistemological worthless.

Oh, and I think you mean incumbent not encumbant.



bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #49778 on: April 05, 2024, 11:02:25 AM »
Vlad,

Quote
"Nothing happening, Literally "nothing happening" would be miraculous in itself.Zero reports subsequently about a time when "Nothing actually happened" suggest there was no such non event.

So something must have happened and it is encumbant on history to find out what actually happened and what actually didn't.

You misunderstand. It’s not that the default is that nothing happened literally, it’s that we have no knowledge of anything happening. The method we have to obtain that knowledge is the study of history which, as NS reminds us, is naturalistic in character. If you want to claim that a non-natural event actually happened, then you need to find a method of your own to investigate and verify that claim. Just complaining that the naturalistic method we can apply to naturalistic events isn’t up to the job is called begging the question – another fallacy.       
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Spud

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #49779 on: April 05, 2024, 11:32:26 AM »
Regarding the absence of Jesus's body. If the reports in the gospels had been false, they would have been debunked at the time, for example by a body being produced or someone recording that the crucifixion didn't happen or that the disciples stole the body. If we assume that the reports are accurate, (as we would about reports of the disappearance of the Titanic, say) then we have a historical death, a burial, the tomb sealed and guarded, and then the tomb found to be empty. So if I'm correct in thinking that this part of the thread is about whether the resurrection is a historical fact, then can we at least say that about the disappearance - literally - of Jesus's body?

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #49780 on: April 05, 2024, 12:02:51 PM »
Spud,

Quote
Regarding the absence of Jesus's body. If the reports in the gospels had been false, they would have been debunked at the time, for example by a body being produced or someone recording that the crucifixion didn't happen or that the disciples stole the body. If we assume that the reports are accurate, (as we would about reports of the disappearance of the Titanic, say) then we have a historical death, a burial, the tomb sealed and guarded, and then the tomb found to be empty. So if I'm correct in thinking that this part of the thread is about whether the resurrection is a historical fact, then can we at least say that about the disappearance - literally - of Jesus's body?

No. There are multiple possible natural explanations for the resurrection story that could have been true – a switcheroo of the body, Jesus in a coma but not actually dead, the fabrication or subsequent mistranslation of the story, whatever. There is no way to know whether the actual Jesus was actually dead for a bit and then alive again, so the claim fails even a cursory application of the historical verification method.   
« Last Edit: April 05, 2024, 12:10:45 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #49781 on: April 05, 2024, 12:21:57 PM »
Spud,

No. There are multiple possible natural explanations for the resurrection story that could have been true – a switcheroo of the body, Jesus in a coma but not actually dead, the fabrication or subsequent mistranslation of the story, whatever. There is no way to know whether the actual Jesus was actually dead for a bit and then alive again, so the claim fails even a cursory application of the historical verification method.
We don't even have enough evidence that there was a body to be missing.

Even if we allow for argument that there was a body, there's no reason anyone would have been trying to debunk the claim.

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #49782 on: April 05, 2024, 12:25:46 PM »
Regarding the absence of Jesus's body. If the reports in the gospels had been false, they would have been debunked at the time, for example by a body being produced or someone recording that the crucifixion didn't happen or that the disciples stole the body. If we assume that the reports are accurate, (as we would about reports of the disappearance of the Titanic, say) then we have a historical death, a burial, the tomb sealed and guarded, and then the tomb found to be empty. So if I'm correct in thinking that this part of the thread is about whether the resurrection is a historical fact, then can we at least say that about the disappearance - literally - of Jesus's body?

Spud

On what basis could you exclude the possibility that the story you note above isn't just post-hoc propaganda for Jesus?

None of this needs to be actually true for it become a tale that convinces some people if told with sufficient conviction.

ekim

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #49783 on: April 05, 2024, 02:58:08 PM »
Spud

None of this needs to be actually true for it become a tale that convinces some people if told with sufficient conviction.

.... and the audiences indoctrinated into persistently repeating the Apostles' Creed.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #49784 on: April 05, 2024, 05:53:53 PM »
NS,

Quote
We don't even have enough evidence that there was a body to be missing.

Even if we allow for argument that there was a body, there's no reason anyone would have been trying to debunk the claim.

I rather thought I’d covered this with “the fabrication or subsequent mistranslation of the story”, but yes. Spud’s argument here is akin to “…if the reports in the stories of King Arthur had been false, they would have been debunked at the time, for example by a sword being found still embedded in the rock”. Both merely assume Jesus/King Arthur, the resurrection/the sword pulled from the stone etc to have happened because falsifying evidence wasn’t produced at the time, completely ignoring the alternative that both could be just made up stories.   
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Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #49785 on: April 05, 2024, 06:31:14 PM »
Regarding the absence of Jesus's body. If the reports in the gospels had been false, they would have been debunked at the time, for example by a body being produced or someone recording that the crucifixion didn't happen or that the disciples stole the body. If we assume that the reports are accurate, (as we would about reports of the disappearance of the Titanic, say) then we have a historical death, a burial, the tomb sealed and guarded, and then the tomb found to be empty. So if I'm correct in thinking that this part of the thread is about whether the resurrection is a historical fact, then can we at least say that about the disappearance - literally - of Jesus's body?

The empty tomb is not an historical fact. The existence of a tomb isn't an historical fact (the normal practice was to throw the bodies into an unmarked mass grave after crucifixion) so people may not have known where Jesus' body was if he was crucified anyway.  Your scenario also relies on the story of Jesus making a big entry in Jerusalem and being seen as an important figure by the Romans and Jewish authorities such that they would have taken note of where his body was and cared about a few people telling stories that he had been seen alive. None of hat is historical fact.

Spud

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #49786 on: April 05, 2024, 10:17:43 PM »
We don't even have enough evidence that there was a body to be missing.

Even if we allow for argument that there was a body, there's no reason anyone would have been trying to debunk the claim.
Someone (professor Davey?) mentioned not having contemporary accounts but only ones from a few centuries later. That's because the accounts would have been written on papyrus, which disintegrates. It's reasonable to assume that the canonical gospels are reliable. The synoptic gospels are evidence enough, since there was copying between them. There wouldn't be signs of copying if they had been altered to the extent that prof thinks.
So we can assume that the crucifixion happened and that the body was buried in a secure tomb as described.
If it were not true that the body had disappeared, the accounts would have been debunked because they were written within the lifetimes of the people in them.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2024, 10:52:05 PM by Spud »

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #49787 on: April 06, 2024, 02:30:29 AM »
Someone (professor Davey?) mentioned not having contemporary accounts but only ones from a few centuries later. That's because the accounts would have been written on papyrus, which disintegrates. It's reasonable to assume that the canonical gospels are reliable. The synoptic gospels are evidence enough, since there was copying between them. There wouldn't be signs of copying if they had been altered to the extent that prof thinks.
So we can assume that the crucifixion happened and that the body was buried in a secure tomb as described.
If it were not true that the body had disappeared, the accounts would have been debunked because they were written within the lifetimes of the people in them.

Don't agree with any of that. It isn't reasonable to assume that they are reliable and they aren't evidence enough. Common sources and copying of each other doesn't tell us that. It is likely, in my opinion, that a crucifixion happened but that the victim as buried in a tomb is much less likely given what we know of the practices of the time. Since we don't have any early copies of the Gospels we don't know what was written down during the lifetime of the people involved and we don't know if attempts were made to debunk the stories. The accounts we have are from long after the event, written by unknown authors who were believers and who were not writing independent history but were presenting accounts which reflect their beliefs.

It wouldn't necessarily need more than one or two people to have experiences following Jesus' crucifixion that they believed were encounters with a risen Jesus (exactly what form that took we don't know), remembering that post grief experiences where people see and talk to dead loved ones during a period of grief are a known phenomena, for stories to begin to spread on a small scale initially at a time when it wasn't possible to know where Jesus' body was. Over time with retelling the stories become exaggerated with features added. At some point they were written down then later authors used those writings and copied each other to end up with the current Gospels. Paul also has an experience he believes is Jesus (a vision?). An alternative scenario which leads us to the Gospels we have today.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2024, 03:02:11 AM by Maeght »

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #49788 on: April 06, 2024, 07:07:58 AM »
Someone (professor Davey?) mentioned not having contemporary accounts but only ones from a few centuries later. That's because the accounts would have been written on papyrus, which disintegrates. It's reasonable to assume that the canonical gospels are reliable. The synoptic gospels are evidence enough, since there was copying between them. There wouldn't be signs of copying if they had been altered to the extent that prof thinks.
So we can assume that the crucifixion happened and that the body was buried in a secure tomb as described.
If it were not true that the body had disappeared, the accounts would have been debunked because they were written within the lifetimes of the people in them.

The NT, with the exception of some (but not all) the letters of Paul, lacks any provenance and therefore cannot be assumed to be reliable history at all. So 'what happened to the body of Jesus', assuming there was a body, is unanswerable and is therefore a meaningless point: the NT resurrection story, aside from place names and the names of some of the people mentioned, is largely indistinguishable from fiction.


Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #49789 on: April 06, 2024, 09:54:37 AM »
Davey seems to be suggesting some kind of law of errors in copying and even perhaps some formula which describes it.

If this is so I have to question the consistency in which such a law and formula is being operated.

« Last Edit: April 06, 2024, 09:58:34 AM by Walt Zingmatilder »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #49790 on: April 06, 2024, 10:10:44 AM »
Davey seems to be suggesting some kind of law of errors in copying and even perhaps some formula which describes it.

If this is so I have to question the consistency in which such a law and formula is being operated.
Where?

Spud

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #49791 on: April 06, 2024, 10:13:16 AM »
Don't agree with any of that. It isn't reasonable to assume that they are reliable and they aren't evidence enough. Common sources and copying of each other doesn't tell us that.
My view, from my own study of the Synoptics, is that Matthew wrote a narrative that has two hinge points involving the imprisonment and execution of John the Baptist, after both of which Jesus withdrew: firstly, after John's imprisonment, to Galilee (4:12); then, after John's execution, he withdrew outside the territory of Israel (14:13, 15:20).
Matthew is a source for Luke, who rearranges some of Matthew's material to suit his purposes in writing. The most obvious evidence for this is that whenever Luke is following Matthew's chronological order, he gives a definite time marker, such as "the next day" or "then" (eg 9:37, 9:46, cf Mt 17:14, 18:1) . But when Luke is not following Matthew's order, he uses a vague time marker such as "on one occasion", or "one day" (eg Luke 5:1, cf Mt 4:18; Lk 9:18, cf Mt 16:13).
Luke also uses other sources.
Mark uses Matthew and Luke, and adds details of a few incidents that are not found in Matt or Luke. The main evidence for this is that whenever Mark stops following the order of either Matthew or Luke, he starts using the order of the other. This is consistent with him having a scroll of Matt and Luke in front of him and working his way through the two scrolls, taking what he wanted from each. It would be very unlikely for Matt to always return to Mark's order at the same point that Luke departs from it, and for Luke to always return to Mark's order when Matthew departs from it.
It is also evident that while Luke and Mark use Matthew as a source, they don't follow his thematic structure. For example, in Matthew, Jesus' withdrawal to Galilee after John's imprisonment fulfills Isaiah's prophecy of a light dawning on the people (in 'Galilee of the Gentiles') living in darkness, Isaiah 9:1-2. But for Luke, Jesus' return to Galilee after his baptism is simply the beginning of his ministry. Mark follows Matthew in noting that Jesus went into Galilee after John's arrest and follows Luke in saying that this was when Jesus began his ministry; but Mark omits Matthew's reference to Isaiah 9 and so, like Luke, misses the relevance of the ministry beginning in Galilee.

Hopefully the above is not too brain-bending, I've tried to explain it in order to show how it is enough to convince me that the gospels as we have them are accurate reproductions of what was originally written. For more details see Harold Riley's books on the Synoptic gospels.

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It is likely, in my opinion, that a crucifixion happened but that the victim as buried in a tomb is much less likely given what we know of the practices of the time. Since we don't have any early copies of the Gospels we don't know what was written down during the lifetime of the people involved and we don't know if attempts were made to debunk the stories. The accounts we have are from long after the event, written by unknown authors who were believers and who were not writing independent history but were presenting accounts which reflect their beliefs.
As I've said before, the gospel of Matthew shows signs of having been written before AD70, when the temple was still standing and the Jews still practiced their religion Jerusalem; for example it mentions the temple tax, the way the pharisees would pray on street corners to be visible, or the note to the reader to understand Jesus' warning to flee from the city when they see the abomination of desolation. So Matthew at least was written within living memory of the events. Luke claims that his sources were those who witnessed the events (1:2), and John's author claims his source is one of the disciples (John 21:24).

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It wouldn't necessarily need more than one or two people to have experiences following Jesus' crucifixion that they believed were encounters with a risen Jesus (exactly what form that took we don't know), remembering that post grief experiences where people see and talk to dead loved ones during a period of grief are a known phenomena, for stories to begin to spread on a small scale initially at a time when it wasn't possible to know where Jesus' body was. Over time with retelling the stories become exaggerated with features added. At some point they were written down then later authors used those writings and copied each other to end up with the current Gospels. Paul also has an experience he believes is Jesus (a vision?). An alternative scenario which leads us to the Gospels we have today.
True, but again the evidence shows that the gospels were written during, or soon after, the eyewitnesses' lifetimes (certainly pre-AD70 - there is no mention anywhere of the destruction of Jerusalem having occurrred). Interestingly, Luke selects his accounts of the resurrection appearances with a different purpose in mind from the other gospel writers: he wants to focus on the necessity of Christ's death and its fulfillment of scripture. Hence the different form taken by Luke in his conclusion to that of Matthew. Mark (as he has done throughout his gospel) ends up, for his conclusion, conflating Matthew, Luke and his other sources, among which may be John's gospel (cf Mark 16:9. John 20:16)
« Last Edit: April 06, 2024, 10:34:14 AM by Spud »

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #49792 on: April 06, 2024, 11:03:01 AM »
Vlad,

Quote
Someone (professor Davey?) mentioned not having contemporary accounts but only ones from a few centuries later. That's because the accounts would have been written on papyrus, which disintegrates.

And yet we do have extant papyrus records from c 2,500 BC:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papyrus#:~:text=The%20earliest%20archaeological%20evidence%20of,of%20the%20reign%20of%20Khufu).

Of course a simpler explanation would be that nothing particularly remarkable was thought to have happened at the time, and so nothing was written down contemporaneously:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

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It's reasonable to assume that the canonical gospels are reliable.

Why?

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The synoptic gospels are evidence enough, since there was copying between them. There wouldn't be signs of copying if they had been altered to the extent that prof thinks.

That’s nonsense. Copying errors reflect mistakes and biases routinely whether or not deliberate alteration was intended. It’s a phenomenon known as transmission chaining:

In social psychology, a transmission chain is when information is passed between people sequentially, each person in the chain usually modifying the information they were given. This is similar to the western telephone game. The transmission chain method is a method used in cultural evolution research to uncover biases in cultural transmission.[1] This method was first developed by Frederic Bartlett in 1932.[2][1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmission_chain_method

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So we can assume that the crucifixion happened and that the body was buried in a secure tomb as described.

No “we” can’t. The most we can conclude is that crucifixions in general did occur, and that generally the victims were thrown into pits. A record written down decades later concerning a specific crucifixion having occurred may or may not be accurate, but there are multiple real world possible explanations for the resurrection part.     

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If it were not true that the body had disappeared, the accounts would have been debunked because they were written within the lifetimes of the people in them.

If it was not true that King Arthur pulled the sword from the stone the accounts would have been debunked because they were written within the lifetimes of the people in them. Even if your reasoning here wasn’t wrong though, a missing body would provide no evidence at all for a resurrection without first eliminating the multiple real world possible explanations for a missing body.

Apart from all that though…
« Last Edit: April 06, 2024, 11:05:56 AM by bluehillside Retd. »
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Spud

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #49793 on: April 06, 2024, 02:42:49 PM »
Vlad,

And yet we do have extant papyrus records from c 2,500 BC:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papyrus#:~:text=The%20earliest%20archaeological%20evidence%20of,of%20the%20reign%20of%20Khufu).

Of course a simpler explanation would be that nothing particularly remarkable was thought to have happened at the time, and so nothing was written down contemporaneously:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor
https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/stewart_don/faq/words-bible/question4-original-manuscripts-of-the-bible.cfm

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Why?
Because, as I said, there wouldn't be signs of copying (between synoptists, see below) if they had been altered to the extent that prof thinks.

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That’s nonsense. Copying errors reflect mistakes and biases routinely whether or not deliberate alteration was intended. It’s a phenomenon known as transmission chaining:

In social psychology, a transmission chain is when information is passed between people sequentially, each person in the chain usually modifying the information they were given. This is similar to the western telephone game. The transmission chain method is a method used in cultural evolution research to uncover biases in cultural transmission.[1] This method was first developed by Frederic Bartlett in 1932.[2][1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmission_chain_method
I'm not talking about transmission errors, but about the changes made by Luke when quoting from Matthew, and by Mark when quoting from Matthew and Luke. (Some of the changes, for instance, were made because Luke and Mark were writing for Gentile readers, so they adapted Matthew's text to remove details that were no longer relevant to them).

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No “we” can’t. The most we can conclude is that crucifixions in general did occur, and that generally the victims were thrown into pits. A record written down decades later concerning a specific crucifixion having occurred may or may not be accurate, but there are multiple real world possible explanations for the resurrection part.
Four detailed accounts plus numerous references to it in the epistles say we can assume the crucifixion happened and that the body was buried in a secure tomb as described..     

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If it was not true that King Arthur pulled the sword from the stone the accounts would have been debunked because they were written within the lifetimes of the people in them. Even if your reasoning here wasn’t wrong though, a missing body would provide no evidence at all for a resurrection without first eliminating the multiple real world possible explanations for a missing body.

Apart from all that though…
If people had not seen the sword in the stone events, but had written them down during the lifetime of the events the story was based on, their story would have been debunked and wouldn't have survived. But that part of the King Arthur story could have arisen centuries after the events. As an example, the gnostic gospels have been debunked because they are wild variations of the four original gospels, written later.
The real world possible explanations for a missing body were eliminated by the gospels. So as far as an eyewitness was concerned, the body had literally vanished into thin air.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2024, 02:51:01 PM by Spud »

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #49794 on: April 06, 2024, 03:04:14 PM »
https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/stewart_don/faq/words-bible/question4-original-manuscripts-of-the-bible.cfm

The real world possible explanations for a missing body were eliminated by the gospels. So as far as an eyewitness was concerned, the body had literally vanished into thin air.

As history, Spud, the gospels aren't worth the papyrus they were presumably written on, and since it seems you guys can't explain how you've assessed the risks of mistakes or lies then these gospels can just be dismissed, though some may find the story chimes with them.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #49795 on: April 06, 2024, 03:26:48 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/stewart_don/faq/words-bible/question4-original-manuscripts-of-the-bible.cfm

But your claim was that we don’t have the contemporaneous record because it would have been written on papyrus and papyrus perishes. The fact remains though that we do have papyrus records now written thousands of years BC.

Moreover you’ve linked to a description of why records that are created sometimes don’t survive. You still though have no case to determine that there were any contemporaneous records at all – it’s just as possible that there were none, either because the event didn’t happen at all or, if it did, because it wasn’t considered interesting enough to merit documenting at the time. Oral stories passed down over several decades will almost certainly change in their transmission, as any player of Chinese Whispers will tell you.

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Because, as I said, there wouldn't be signs of copying (between synoptists, see below) if they had been altered to the extent that prof thinks.

You don’t know what the extent the Prof thinks there is, and in any case why on earth wouldn’t there be signs of copying – maybe with the inconvenient bits left out and the juicy new parts added along the way?

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I'm not talking about transmission errors, but about the changes made by Luke when quoting from Matthew, and by Mark when quoting from Matthew and Luke. (Some of the changes, for instance, were made because Luke and Mark were writing for Gentile readers, so they adapted Matthew's text to remove details that were no longer relevant to them).

Which says nothing at all about the risk of transmission errors, whether or not you were talking about them. Transmission errors occur routinely in any passing down of stories – inadvertently, for translation reasons, to reflect the biases of the participants etc. That’s why historians look for independent, objective data to confirm stories as presented – and so is why your faith beliefs aren't treated as historically true. 

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Four detailed accounts plus numerous references to it in the epistles say we can assume the crucifixion happened and that the body was buried in a secure tomb as described..

Except the “four detailed accounts” were dependent on each other, not separately and independently compiled. If I claim to have seen a dragon and thirty odd years later different people either write down my story or one person does and then three others draw on the same source there’s aren’t four independent accounts of my story.     

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If people had not seen the sword in the stone events, but had written them down during the lifetime of the events the story was based on, their story would have been debunked and wouldn't have survived.

Why do you think that? What if someone said “I knew a bloke whose uncle knew a bloke whose granddad said that thirty years ago he saw King Arthur pull a sword from a stone” and I wrote that down, and then several other people used my account as their source for writing down the same story in slightly different ways too? 

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But that part of the King Arthur story could have arisen centuries after the events. As an example, the gnostic gospels have been debunked because they are wild variations of the four original gospels, written later.

Relevance?

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The real world possible explanations for a missing body were eliminated by the gospels. So as far as an eyewitness was concerned, the body had literally vanished into thin air.

They could not have been eliminated by anything because there’s no way to eliminate the unknown. I can think of half a dozen non-miraculous explanations right off the bat that the authors of the gospels would have no data about at all. “So far as the eye witnesses” to a woman being sawn on half on stage and then put together again are concerned she was indeed sawn in half, and people writing about that decades later would be able to report only what the witnesses thought they saw, not necessarily what actually happened.       
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #49796 on: April 06, 2024, 03:54:06 PM »
Vlad,

...
You were replying to Spud, not Vlad

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #49797 on: April 06, 2024, 03:57:01 PM »
NS,

Quote
You were replying to Spud, not Vlad

Quite right too - old habits die hard!

My apologies to both parties.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #49798 on: April 06, 2024, 07:13:04 PM »
https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/stewart_don/faq/words-bible/question4-original-manuscripts-of-the-bible.cfm
Because, as I said, there wouldn't be signs of copying (between synoptists, see below) if they had been altered to the extent that prof thinks.
I'm not talking about transmission errors, but about the changes made by Luke when quoting from Matthew, and by Mark when quoting from Matthew and Luke. (Some of the changes, for instance, were made because Luke and Mark were writing for Gentile readers, so they adapted Matthew's text to remove details that were no longer relevant to them).
Four detailed accounts plus numerous references to it in the epistles say we can assume the crucifixion happened and that the body was buried in a secure tomb as described..     
If people had not seen the sword in the stone events, but had written them down during the lifetime of the events the story was based on, their story would have been debunked and wouldn't have survived. But that part of the King Arthur story could have arisen centuries after the events. As an example, the gnostic gospels have been debunked because they are wild variations of the four original gospels, written later.
The real world possible explanations for a missing body were eliminated by the gospels. So as far as an eyewitness was concerned, the body had literally vanished into thin air.

You can argue this and others can argue otherwise. I'm not a scholar so can't argue directly but my point is that you have a personal certainty about your view but that position isn't certain. There are alternative views and understandings and alternative scenarios which could explain the Gospels. We don't really know who wrote the Gospels or when they were written so for me to believe in God basd on something which is uncertain makes no sense.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #49799 on: April 07, 2024, 09:47:59 AM »
As history, Spud, the gospels aren't worth the papyrus they were presumably written on, and since it seems you guys can't explain how you've assessed the risks of mistakes or lies then these gospels can just be dismissed, though some may find the story chimes with them.
Gordon,
You constantly try to dismiss the Christian message by claiming lack of verifiable proof - but this cannot be used to imply that the Gospels were wrong.
Have you fully assessed the risks of you being wrong?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton