Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3864158 times)

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50000 on: April 15, 2024, 03:52:13 PM »
Celebrating the 2000th page of the searching for God thread.
Whereas I'm celebrating  the 1000th page!
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50001 on: April 15, 2024, 03:55:37 PM »
AB,

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Yes, I fully admit that it was unusual for me - it was a measure of my frustration in people who refuse to acknowledge their own conscious freedom in order to maintain their short sighted belief in the materialistic scenario.

You may label it biology, Gordon, but if you are entirely material then all your thoughts words and deeds will be entirely determined by unavoidable material reactions controlled by the laws of physics - not by you.

The “unavoidable material reactions controlled by the laws of physics” are “you”.

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The frustration is that you would not be able to believe in anything unless God had given you the miraculous freedom to think things out and reach consciously verifiable conclusions..

That’s just a repetition of your standard blind faith claim.

So again: you claimed to have a logically sound argument to justify your assertion that consciousness is "totally impossible" in a materialistic paradigm. Where is it?
« Last Edit: April 15, 2024, 04:40:36 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50002 on: April 15, 2024, 05:37:26 PM »
AB,

The “unavoidable material reactions controlled by the laws of physics” are “you”.

If I am just a lump of reconstituted star debris, then the label "you" is superfluous because I would have no will of my own - just being a biological robot entirely driven by material reactions beyond my control.

We have just surpassed 50,000 posts on this thread, and every one of them offers evidence that we are much more than biological robots - we are beings created in God's image with the miraculous gift of free will which enables us to choose our own destiny.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50003 on: April 15, 2024, 05:43:17 PM »
If I am just a lump of reconstituted star debris, then the label "you" is superfluous because I would have no will of my own - just being a biological robot entirely driven by material reactions beyond my control.

We have just surpassed 50,000 posts on this thread, and every one of them offers evidence that we are much more than biological robots - we are beings created in God's image with the miraculous gift of free will which enables us to choose our own destiny.

They don't at all.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50004 on: April 15, 2024, 09:10:51 PM »
AB,

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If I am just a lump of reconstituted star debris, then…

I’ve cautioned you multiple times before now that when you begin your argument with an “if, then” statement you’re very likely to fall into the error of an argumentum ad consequentiam – which is what you’ve just done here. Try again. 

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…the label "you" is superfluous because I would have no will of my own - just being a biological robot entirely driven by material reactions beyond my control.

That’s called a non sequitur – another mistake in reasoning. The term “you” is still fine in the materialist paradigm if the emergent property of consciousness creates a sense of selfhood. Try again.

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We have just surpassed 50,000 posts on this thread, and every one of them offers evidence that we are much more than biological robots - we are beings created in God's image with the miraculous gift of free will which enables us to choose our own destiny.

Not one of those posts does that, any more than witnessing 50,000 rainbows would offer evidence that leprechauns leave pots of gold at the ends of them.

So yet again: you claim to have a logically sound argument to justify your assertion that consciousness in a materialistic paradigm is “totally impossible". When do you propose finally to post that argument here?
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Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50005 on: April 15, 2024, 10:41:15 PM »
If I am just a lump of reconstituted star debris, then the label "you" is superfluous because I would have no will of my own - just being a biological robot entirely driven by material reactions beyond my control.

You have will, it's just not free. As to the label being superfluous, whether you have 'will' or not, whether that will is free or not, you are a distinct and identifiable conglomeration of physical elements with an identifiable presence. That identifiable presence needs a label.

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We have just surpassed 50,000 posts on this thread, and every one of them offers evidence that we are much more than biological robots

No, it doesn't. Every one of them provides evidence that there is consciousness out there, but nothing that demonstrates that it's free of the constraints of prior events.

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We are beings created in God's image with the miraculous gift of free will which enables us to choose our own destiny.

You can keep asserting that, but until and unless you can demonstrate a way that 'free will' makes any sort of logical sense as a concept then whether you assert it or not makes no difference. A decision can be 'will' or it can be 'free', but it can't be both, it just doesn't work.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50006 on: April 15, 2024, 11:03:34 PM »
A decision can be 'will' or it can be 'free', but it can't be both, it just doesn't work.

O.
You, like many others, seem to misunderstand what I mean by free will - it does not mean free of constraints.
Any form of consciously driven will is free in the context of it not being just an inevitable reaction beyond your conscious control.
If you are in conscious control of your thoughts, words and actions then you have the gift of free will.
The materialistic alternative is that you are entirely driven by material reactions beyond your conscious control.
It is either your conscious self in control or the uncontrollable laws of nature - there is no alternative.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2024, 07:51:05 AM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50007 on: April 16, 2024, 06:30:17 AM »
If I am just a lump of reconstituted star debris, then the label "you" is superfluous because I would have no will of my own - just being a biological robot entirely driven by material reactions beyond my control...


You do have a will of your own, so do I.  You also have DNA that is your own, and no one else's, and fingerprints that are yours, and no one else's.  That means we all process life differently, uniquely.  What this doesn't justify is a disconnection from the context and derivation that led to you being you and me being me. We are all unique consequences of the paths that led each of us to being what we are today and that is reflected in every thought we have and every action we take. Without this context and grounding, life would be meaningless.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50008 on: April 16, 2024, 08:28:42 AM »
You do have a will of your own, so do I.  You also have DNA that is your own, and no one else's, and fingerprints that are yours, and no one else's.  That means we all process life differently, uniquely.  What this doesn't justify is a disconnection from the context and derivation that led to you being you and me being me. We are all unique consequences of the paths that led each of us to being what we are today and that is reflected in every thought we have and every action we take. Without this context and grounding, life would be meaningless.
The fact that we are able to consciously recognise our unique identity is indicative of the true nature of our spiritual self.  Any material object - be they man made robots or biological machines, can have no discernible means of self identification.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50009 on: April 16, 2024, 08:49:11 AM »
Any material object - be they man made robots or biological machines, can have no discernible means of self identification.
Really? Why not - it seems perfectly plausible that a sophisticated robot can become self aware. And the phenomenon of self awareness is something shared by many higher animal species, but not by many others. So it isn't something that is inherently a human phenomenon, but one that is associated with a level of biological complexity.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50010 on: April 16, 2024, 08:52:23 AM »
The fact that we are able to consciously recognise our unique identity is indicative of the true nature of our spiritual self.  Any material object - be they man made robots or biological machines, can have no discernible means of self identification.
We have selfs-awareness, we do.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50011 on: April 16, 2024, 09:28:40 AM »
AB,

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You, like many others, seem to misunderstand what I mean by free will - it does not mean free of constraints.

No, we understand it very well. You think our “free” will can’t be materialistic in character and that it’s free of prior events, but you can’t provide an argument to justify these logic-denying assertions.
 
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Any form of consciously driven will is free in the context of it not being just an inevitable reaction beyond your conscious control.

Conceptually it would be, but it’s also a logical impossibility for reasons that actually have been justified with arguments which you then routinely ignore.

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If you are in conscious control of your thoughts, words and actions then you have the gift of free will.

But you’re not. Logically you can’t be.

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The materialistic alternative is that you are entirely driven by material reactions beyond your conscious control.

At one level, yes.

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It is either your conscious self in control or the uncontrollable laws of nature - there is no alternative.

But “conscious self in control” would be logically impossible, so it’s the latter.

Anyway… you keep being asked for an argument to justify your assertion that consciousness is not a materialistic phenomenon, and you continue to fail to provide it. What’s the problem here – do you not have an argument to do that? Do you not understand the word “argument”? What? 
« Last Edit: April 16, 2024, 09:31:29 AM by bluehillside Retd. »
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50012 on: April 16, 2024, 09:29:57 AM »
AB,

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The fact that we are able to consciously recognise our unique identity is indicative of the true nature of our spiritual self.

That’s another non sequitur in support of a blind faith claim.

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Any material object - be they man made robots or biological machines, can have no discernible means of self identification.

Yes we know that that’s your assertion, but what you’re being asked for is an argument to justify it – so far without success. When do you propose to set out that argument here?

 
« Last Edit: April 16, 2024, 09:32:19 AM by bluehillside Retd. »
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50013 on: April 16, 2024, 09:41:56 AM »
Really? Why not - it seems perfectly plausible that a sophisticated robot can become self aware. And the phenomenon of self awareness is something shared by many higher animal species, but not by many others. So it isn't something that is inherently a human phenomenon, but one that is associated with a level of biological complexity.
A robot that appears self aware is certainly plausible, and since that's how we treat other people's self awareness would be sufficient to pass. Alan's position is that his experience is universal for humans, but that somehow, possibly due to an artificially defined capability such as language, it doesn't apply to other animals. No matter that they might show in tests that they have what we might think of as self awareness, it's just uncontrolled reaction according to Alan.

I suspect even if you had a robot and a crow come up to Alan, announce their self awareness, and tell him that they carried the Attenborough/Turing imprimatur on self awareness, he'd regard it as a trick.

Similarly, Alan's experience of himself as an ongoing continuous unique individual outweighs for him anything that the confederacy of dunces that this body might use the perpendicular pronoun for could write about a different set of experiences. Alan has solved the problem of hard solipsism by, as noted above, universalising himself. Not a new solution but one that has the appeal of a Moëbius strip.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2024, 09:45:04 AM by Nearly Sane »

Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50014 on: April 16, 2024, 09:49:38 AM »
You, like many others, seem to misunderstand what I mean by free will - it does not mean free of constraints.

No, I don't. You continue to straw-man what I, and others, are saying.

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Any form of consciously driven will is free in the context of it not being just an inevitable reaction beyond your conscious control.

You see, that's what I'm trying to explain - it explicitly IS an inevitable reaction beyond our conscious control. Our sense of 'conscious control' is itself an inevitable consequence of the particular prior events.

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If you are in conscious control of your thoughts, words and actions then you have the gift of free will.

That sense of 'conscious control' is illusory, it doesn't reflect reality.

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The materialistic alternative is that you are entirely driven by material reactions beyond your conscious control.

Exactly. Your arguments against this conclusion appear to be, primarily, a combination of arguments from consequence (you don't like the implications of this) and arguments from authority (my favourite group of Big Book of Bedtime Stories supporters says this can't be true).

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It is either your conscious self in control or the uncontrollable laws of nature - there is no alternative.

Well, no. There is either our 'conscious self' - which is an uncontrollable effect of nature - or it's our subconscious activity - an uncontrollable effect of nature - or there's the possibility that it's functionally random result of particular quantum events - an uncontrollable effect of nature.

We appear to be a consequence, not an uncaused cause.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

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SteveH

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50015 on: April 16, 2024, 10:13:37 AM »
Really? Why not - it seems perfectly plausible that a sophisticated robot can become self aware. And the phenomenon of self awareness is something shared by many higher animal species, but not by many others. So it isn't something that is inherently a human phenomenon, but one that is associated with a level of biological complexity.
It has been suggested that most higher mammals are aware, but only humans are self-aware - ie humans are not only aware, but are aware that they're aware. I'm just mentioning this as a view that exists, not contending for it, so don't have a pop at me.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50016 on: April 16, 2024, 10:18:34 AM »
SteveH,

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It has been suggested that most higher mammals are aware, but only humans are self-aware - ie humans are not only aware, but are aware that they're aware. I'm just mentioning this as a view that exists, not contending for it, so don't have a pop at me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test
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Spud

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50017 on: April 16, 2024, 10:24:30 AM »
Theoretically true, although the points I raised about the gospel attributed to John remain. Now the original of the gospel attributed to Mark is purported to have been from about 70CE, so that's slightly nearer in time compared to the gospel attributed to John. But we are still 40 years after the purported events. But the geography is more challenging - the gospel attributed to Mark is considered likely to have been written in Rome, which is even further from where these claimed eye witnesses would have been. And the issue of language remains - the language spoken by the early readers and the language spoken by the purported eye witnesses is different.

But there is a further issue - we have no idea whether the text in Mark 10 was even present in any early version - we don't have early extant copies for most of the gospel attributed to Mark, indeed for much of it the earliest copies we can actually consider (and therefore be confident about the text) are from about 300 years after the purported events. And we know that there is evidence of significant alteration in the text - including the humdinger of a completely new ending added to 'beef-up' the resurrection claim.

But even if we accept the theoretical possibility that an early reader could have travelled half way across the Mediterranean to interview the purported eye witnesses - do you have any evidence that they did. Seems to me these are faith claims, and accepted/rejected on the basis of faith, not on the basis of evidence.

And that leads me to my final point - if there were all these eye witnesses to astonishing miracles, how come christianity failed to get any meaningful foothold in the place where it arose (where those eye witnesses actually lived). Those most likely to have been witnesses to Jesus' life and teaching by and large did not accept that he was anything special, did not accept him to be the son of god, did not join the developing christian movement. Weird if they were witnesses to astonishing miracles!

Thank you for acknowledging that it is theoretically true that someone could have checked whether Bartimaeus had been healed. As you know, I think that eyewitnesses were still alive when the four gospels were written.

For example, Paul says "After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep." Presumably these 500 had also witnessed other miracles.

Also, Luke says that his (and other composers of an account of the events) information comes from "those who were eyewitnesses":
"Many have undertaken to compose an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, 2just as they were handed down to us by the initial eyewitnesses and servants of the word."

Regarding your final point. 

John 9:18 says "The Jews still did not believe that the man had been blind and had received his sight until they summoned his parents 19and asked, “Is this your son, the one you say was born blind? So how is it that he can now see?”" Notice the "until", indicating that they did eventually believe he had been healed, once they had spoken to his parents. They then spoke to the man again, eventually telling him, "we know that this man (Jesus) is a sinner...We know that God spoke to Moses, but we do not know where this man is from."

So as we are also told in the Synoptic gospels, and indeed one or two other secular writers from that era, the Jews did believe that Jesus performed miracles, but did not believe that the source of his power was God.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2024, 10:41:47 AM by Spud »

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50018 on: April 16, 2024, 10:28:24 AM »
Spud,

Quote
So as we are also told in the Synoptic gospels, and indeed one or two other secular writers from that era, the Jews did believe that Jesus performed miracles, but did not believe that the source of his power was God.

True or not, do you have an argument to take you from "Jews did believe that Jesus performed miracles" to there actually being miracles?
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Spud

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50019 on: April 16, 2024, 10:31:09 AM »
No, believing in god is a faith position; not believing in god isn’t. Believing god doesn’t exist on the other hand would be a faith position, but that’s a different matter.
That's almost what I meant, yes. Believing that the world was created, or that it came about by chance. We have to believe one or the other, and both require faith. But you might disagree?
« Last Edit: April 16, 2024, 10:35:47 AM by Spud »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50020 on: April 16, 2024, 10:33:47 AM »
A robot that appears self aware is certainly plausible, and since that's how we treat other people's self awareness would be sufficient to pass. Alan's position is that his experience is universal for humans, but that somehow, possibly due to an artificially defined capability such as language, it doesn't apply to other animals. No matter that they might show in tests that they have what we might think of as self awareness, it's just uncontrolled reaction according to Alan.

I suspect even if you had a robot and a crow come up to Alan, announce their self awareness, and tell him that they carried the Attenborough/Turing imprimatur on self awareness, he'd regard it as a trick.

Similarly, Alan's experience of himself as an ongoing continuous unique individual outweighs for him anything that the confederacy of dunces that this body might use the perpendicular pronoun for could write about a different set of experiences. Alan has solved the problem of hard solipsism by, as noted above, universalising himself. Not a new solution but one that has the appeal of a Moëbius strip.
Does something that appears to be self aware have to actually be self aware?
What is it that makes a self aware robot plausible?Does high complexity equate to self awareness? How would you know it was self aware and not exercising some sophisticated computation that simulated it?

Spud

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50021 on: April 16, 2024, 10:34:09 AM »
Spud,

True or not, do you have an argument to take you from "Jews did believe that Jesus performed miracles" to there actually being miracles?
The Jews believing that he performed miracles would add to the evidence that he did.

Aruntraveller

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50022 on: April 16, 2024, 10:40:52 AM »
The Jews believing that he performed miracles would add to the evidence that he did.

It doesn't.

In the same way that Liz Truss thinks she is a competent politician doesn't make it so.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50023 on: April 16, 2024, 10:41:01 AM »
Spud,

Quote
That's almost what I meant, yes. Believing that the world was created, or that it came about by chance. We either believe one or the other, but you might disagree?

Depends what you mean by “chance”, but if you mean something like “the world came about either purposively or not purposively” then yes. I see no good reason to believe the former though.   
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50024 on: April 16, 2024, 10:41:13 AM »
Does something that appears to be self aware have to actually be self aware?
What is it that makes a self aware robot plausible?Does high complexity equate to self awareness? How would you know it was self aware and not exercising some sophisticated computation that simulated it?
I wouldn't. Just as  I can't know you are. As was covered in the post.