Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3860324 times)

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50500 on: May 16, 2024, 09:20:44 AM »


Of course. My view accords with the dictionary definition which could apply to all gods.
I think you would agree, though, that a good dictionary would have a more extensive definition than that. After all conscious and supernatural would describe a ghost or an angel.
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' If you are suggesting that the idea of a god could include the idea of it not being a conscious entity for instance then the idea of a necessary entity could mean anything which one could simply give the name 'god' to. One could easily call it something else, of course.
Consciousness is hard to pin down and as with the terms Universe and time there are different views on them. How do you feel about an unconscious supernatural necessary entity?
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Unless this necessary entity can be discovered and found to be inanimate. Then it would simply be the most basic part of a natural process.
Yes, I think you have rightly touched on how fundamental and ultimate the necessary entity would be. I’m not a great one for talk of the supernatural because of it’s perjorative baggage, or the “natural/supernatural” divide. However, as evidenced by resistance to it on here at least, non- contingency is not a staple part of naturalism. The concern and focus on cause and effect and change has led to it’s sidelining and forgetting. Having said that there is no justification for the conclusion, therefore it doesn’t exist or for some of the fantastical intellectual contortions to get round the necessary entity.

So I would say a universe popping out of nothing, or existing infinitely, or creating itself or causal loops are beyond the natural....or supernatural.

Secondly, being fundamental. The necessary entity would not itself be subject to the laws of nature for everything else. So whether something like that can be described as natural,I’m not sure.

Which brings us to consciousness.
I believe I have said because the necessary entity is not subject to any laws it gives rise to. Why these laws arise is indistinguishable from volition or will. Will is a sign of consciousness. Being fundamental, there is no context for any randomness or unconsciousness, or accident.


« Last Edit: May 16, 2024, 09:31:02 AM by Walt Zingmatilder »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50501 on: May 16, 2024, 09:29:51 AM »
Your god is allegedly composed of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

No amount of you waffling can change the fact that your god is composed of three parts.
H2O is comprised of water steam and Ice.

And 3 in1 Oil is the same oil performing 3 different functions

Richard Dawkins is Father, Son, and former Simonyi professor of the public awareness of science.

Étienne d'Angleterre

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50502 on: May 16, 2024, 09:49:49 AM »
H2O is comprised of water steam and Ice.

You have that exactly backwards.

Water can exist as a solid, liquid and a gas. A single molecule of H2O can not be any of those things. The physical state of the water e.g. steam relates to the interaction of many molecules of H2O. For example at low temperatures the kinetic energy of each water molecule is not sufficient to overcome the attractive hydrogen bonding acting between the molecules and hence they stick together (freeze).

So to use your own analogy, the trinity (liquid, solid, gas) can only exist because it is composed of many individual parts (individual H2O molecules), the trinity (liquid, solid gas) could not exist if there was only one part (a single H2O molecule).


bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50503 on: May 16, 2024, 10:10:17 AM »
Vlad,

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That’s not my conclusion for a universe defined as containing contingent things and the necessary entity. This was pointed out to you but you are just repeating the accusation.

What fresh dog’s breakfast of an idea are you attempting now? You have concluded that a universe that observably contains contingent “stuff” must therefore be made entirely of contingent stuff. That’s your faulty generalisation fallacy.

No-one is claiming a universe with a “necessary entity”. What’s actually being said is that there’s not enough information to know whether there’s one such, none such or lots of such.

This shouldn’t be hard to understand – even for you   

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Any thing which is composite is contingent on a reason for it’s type of parts and number of parts. It can therefore not be the necessary entity. This is taking almost as long to realise this as it took you to suss out that the argument from contingency was not the same as the Kalam cosmological argument.

Try reading that again and then tell me whether you think there’s a comprehensible sentence there. What is “Any thing which is composite is contingent on a reason for it’s (sic) type of parts and number of parts” even supposed to mean?

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Is the universe anything more than a collection of entities though Hillside?
Not in your definition of emergence. And yet here you are suggesting something that ordinarily you would write off as magic.

Oh dear. Emergent properties are some of the “entities” of the universe, not somehow floating free of it.

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Once again....a composite cannot be the necessary entity because there is a reason for the type of parts and number of parts which is independent of those parts.

Once again – try that for people whose working language is English. If you want to posit a magic god, why could it not have created itself in as many parts as it wanted to, either ab initio or after it indulged in a spot of self-invention?
« Last Edit: May 16, 2024, 10:12:55 AM by bluehillside Retd. »
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Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50504 on: May 16, 2024, 10:15:06 AM »
H2O is comprised of water steam and Ice.

Really - I always though Hydrogen and Oxygen were somehow involved. Perhaps 'comprised' was the wrong term, Vlad.

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And 3 in1 Oil is the same oil performing 3 different functions

Not a great analogy, Vlad. 3 in 1 oil is just multipurpose product and like olive oil can be used in different ways, but it is still the same thing however it is used.

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Richard Dawkins is Father, Son, and former Simonyi professor of the public awareness of science.

And?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50505 on: May 16, 2024, 10:21:28 AM »
Do you have anything to suggest that there is a distinction there? You're presuming the non-material in order to justify dismissing the argument that makes your claim of a non-material cause justifiable.
The universe of all entities is the name given to the collection of all entities contingent and non contingent. The term physical universe is the name given to contingent physical entities and they’re interactions as covered by the laws of physics. Is the necessary entity covered by the laws of physics?I’m not so sure.
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Isn't your preferred choice for this 'necessary' element the Trinity? One god that is also three? How is that not composite in the same way that, say, a closed loop of causality?
My choice of The Trinity is probably Analogous to my preferred choice of 3 in 1 oil for my bicycle. One oil, three functions. God is not caused, so I can’t see how closed loops of causality are pertinent here[/quote]
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But that universe came into being, so far as we can tell, as a single thing - it's composed of a total amount of energy (and potentially 'anti-energy', some of which is condensed into matter, some of which is condensed into anti-matter. It changes appearance over time, but you can't remove or destroy any of this substructures, you can only change their manifestation. We perceive the universe as being made of 'stuff' from the inside, but from outside it's a just a four-dimensional time-space construction in which we, and everything else, are just substructures.
energy and anti energy are two things aren’t they? Or are you now saying two things can be one thing? In which case you’ve undercut arguments against a trinity. So we are back to the question why energy and anti energy and why in those amounts? The answers to and reasons for those issues logically preceed energy and anti energy.

On a related issue.What about entropy? We are told at the beginning there was maximum order. The term order implies multiple entities. At your start then the physical universe seems truly composite.
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God, as a term, carries quite a lot of baggage that isn't adequately supported by the argument you're trying to make, even if you managed to pull it off.
As an intellectual, though, you are required to be dispassionate and look through accretion or baggage......but if it helps, give it another name although necessary entity seems as much of a trigger to some.

O.
[/quote]

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50506 on: May 16, 2024, 11:09:33 AM »
You have that exactly backwards.

Water can exist as a solid, liquid and a gas. A single molecule of H2O can not be any of those things. The physical state of the water e.g. steam relates to the interaction of many molecules of H2O. For example at low temperatures the kinetic energy of each water molecule is not sufficient to overcome the attractive hydrogen bonding acting between the molecules and hence they stick together (freeze).

So to use your own analogy, the trinity (liquid, solid, gas) can only exist because it is composed of many individual parts (individual H2O molecules), the trinity (liquid, solid gas) could not exist if there was only one part (a single H2O molecule).
These can only be analogies and metaphors Ettiene and it’s possible to stretch metaphors or try to. Is the universe one entity or several? Nobody seems to want to address this.
I have said that god is one substance. A composite is surely multiple substances.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50507 on: May 16, 2024, 11:13:27 AM »
These can only be analogies and metaphors Ettiene and it’s possible to stretch metaphors or try to. Is the universe one entity or several? Nobody seems to want to address this.
I have said that god is one substance. A composite is surely multiple substances.
Do we have an agreed definition of 'entity'? In context?

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50508 on: May 16, 2024, 11:17:34 AM »
Do we have an agreed definition of 'entity'? In context?
Or indeed 'substance'?

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50509 on: May 16, 2024, 11:26:07 AM »

I have said that god is one substance. A composite is surely multiple substances.

If this 'God' is comprises three distinct elements then surely it is must be a composite.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50510 on: May 16, 2024, 11:26:22 AM »
You have that exactly backwards.

Water can exist as a solid, liquid and a gas. A single molecule of H2O can not be any of those things. The physical state of the water e.g. steam relates to the interaction of many molecules of H2O. For example at low temperatures the kinetic energy of each water molecule is not sufficient to overcome the attractive hydrogen bonding acting between the molecules and hence they stick together (freeze).

So to use your own analogy, the trinity (liquid, solid, gas) can only exist because it is composed of many individual parts (individual H2O molecules), the trinity (liquid, solid gas) could not exist if there was only one part (a single H2O molecule).
Nice to see you back posting. Happy New Year!

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50511 on: May 16, 2024, 11:31:30 AM »
If this 'God' is comprises three distinct elements then surely it is must be a composite.
I'm not sure enough of an argument has been made for it to matter. All that Vlad has offered is a set of assertions. Amongst these assertions,  that there is a necessary 'entity', and that it cannot be made up of more than one 'substance' are not worth accepting. Which you would have to do for the while 'composite' discussion to be worthwhile.

Scare quotes around entity, substance, and composite since there doesn't seem to be a clear definition of them that is being used. That also applies to necessary, and contingent, and non contingent when they have been used in Vlad's assertions.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50512 on: May 16, 2024, 12:12:20 PM »
Vlad,

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I have said that god is one substance. A composite is surely multiple substances.

Perhaps you should trouble yourself with demonstrating a “god” of any type before imposing your (very limited) reasoning constraints on what this god can and cannot be?
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Enki

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50513 on: May 16, 2024, 12:19:05 PM »

I think you would agree, though, that a good dictionary would have a more extensive definition than that. After all conscious and supernatural would describe a ghost or an angel.

I was simply trying to give as broad a definition as possible. If you have a better one I'd certainly consider it.

 
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Consciousness is hard to pin down and as with the terms Universe and time there are different views on them. How do you feel about an unconscious supernatural necessary entity?

My view is that there are at least as many problems with a necessary entity as with infinite contingency. If there was a necessary entity I tend to think that it would be natural rather than supernatural because I have no evidence that the supernatural exists at all. As I also have no evidence whatever that any godlike being exists, then, if a necessary entity exists, I tend to think it would be some sort of inanimate thing/process/whatever. The bottom line for me is I don't know if it(or they) exist or if it does, then I don't know what form it takes. 

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Yes, I think you have rightly touched on how fundamental and ultimate the necessary entity would be. I’m not a great one for talk of the supernatural because of it’s perjorative baggage, or the “natural/supernatural” divide. However, as evidenced by resistance to it on here at least, non- contingency is not a staple part of naturalism. The concern and focus on cause and effect and change has led to it’s sidelining and forgetting. Having said that there is no justification for the conclusion, therefore it doesn’t exist or for some of the fantastical intellectual contortions to get round the necessary entity.

So I would say a universe popping out of nothing, or existing infinitely, or creating itself or causal loops are beyond the natural....or supernatural.

Secondly, being fundamental. The necessary entity would not itself be subject to the laws of nature for everything else. So whether something like that can be described as natural,I’m not sure.

See my previous response.

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Which brings us to consciousness.
I believe I have said because the necessary entity is not subject to any laws it gives rise to. Why these laws arise is indistinguishable from volition or will. Will is a sign of consciousness. Being fundamental, there is no context for any randomness or unconsciousness, or accident.

I see no reason, if there is a necessary entity, for any volition or will to be involved at all, just as I see no volition or will involved in the four fundamental forces in physics. Indeed, quantum effects could be part of it in some way. If so, then the random element might well play an important part.

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Dicky Underpants

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50514 on: May 16, 2024, 01:35:36 PM »
H2O is comprised of water steam and Ice.

And 3 in1 Oil is the same oil performing 3 different functions

Richard Dawkins is Father, Son, and former Simonyi professor of the public awareness of science.
"My Father is greater than I am" John 14: 28
The Son is contingent on the Father.

An atom of Oxygen is heavier than one of Hydrogen.

Here we go round the mulberry bush.
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Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50515 on: May 16, 2024, 02:07:27 PM »
The universe of all entities is the name given to the collection of all entities contingent and non contingent. The term physical universe is the name given to contingent physical entities and they’re interactions as covered by the laws of physics.

You can give it a name, but that doesn't mean that it exists. You still need to demonstrate a reason to think that there is some set of 'non-physical' entities. And the use of 'universe' here is potentially confusing given that the physical universe may not represent all the physical contingent entities - I'm thinking of a 'set' of physical entities, which includes the physical universe and all its constituent parts, but might or might not include anything outside of that.

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Is the necessary entity covered by the laws of physics?I’m not so sure.

You've demonstrated neither a necessary entity nor anything outside of the laws of physics, I think it's early to think about the interactions between the two.

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My choice of The Trinity is probably Analogous to my preferred choice of 3 in 1 oil for my bicycle. One oil, three functions.

Notwithstanding the sophistric point that lubricating oils are complex hydrocarbons, and therefore a combination of multiple substances.... So Jesus was wholly God, then? That sort of undermines the sacrifice notion, I feel.


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God is not caused, so I can’t see how closed loops of causality are pertinent here

Isn't it? That's a little bit of special pleading, I think.

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energy and anti energy are two things aren’t they?

Are light and dark? Hot and cold? Are they different things, different representations of the same thing, different parts of the same whole? They are nothing, split into parts...

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Or are you now saying two things can be one thing? In which case you’ve undercut arguments against a trinity.

I'm saying that how we perceive things isn't necessarily definitive - we can look at the universe being made up of innumerable tiny bits and pieces (the reductionism that was one of your pet bugbears not so long ago), or we can look at the universe as an holistic entity in four dimensional space - it could be the necessary, and the fact that at certain times it's in one state rather than another says more about our perception than it does about the nature of the universe. That could, absolutely, apply to the Trinity, but there are implications to that, as I've indicated above which change the understanding of what that Trinity might mean.

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So we are back to the question why energy and anti energy and why in those amounts?

Only if you can show in what way 'why' makes any sense in that context. We could look at 'how' - we probably don't have a sufficient understanding of the science to do very much on that right now - but 'why' presumes a conscious background that you'd need to establish, first.

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The answers to and reasons for those issues logically preceed energy and anti energy.

Do they? Energy is, energy flows, energy interacts - in what way can 'why' be said to apply to that without presuming something about precursors, if indeed there are any precursors. Within the universe it appears that energy cannot be created or destroyed, so energy may be eternal and we are just the latest iteration of that ebb and flow that is reality.

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On a related issue.What about entropy? We are told at the beginning there was maximum order.

Within the universe, yes. We don't know if that's all the energy, though, we're guessing about what extra-universal 'physics' might be like.

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The term order implies multiple entities.

It can be interpreted as that, yes, but is the fundamental unit the smallest element or the largest? Is everything we see a local snapshot of the current state of the universe as a whole, or is the universe the composite of all those smaller parts?

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At your start then the physical universe seems truly composite.

I don't know that it works like that; it can be seen like that, it can certainly be useful in some circumstances to operate as though that's how it works, but that's a perspective, it's not a definition.

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As an intellectual, though, you are required to be dispassionate and look through accretion or baggage......but if it helps, give it another name although necessary entity seems as much of a trigger to some.

Without the baggage it just becomes 'the necessary entity' that you've yet to establish we need to consider at all in the first place.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50516 on: May 17, 2024, 07:22:26 AM »
"My Father is greater than I am" John 14: 28
The Son is contingent on the Father.

An atom of Oxygen is heavier than one of Hydrogen.

Here we go round the mulberry bush.
“In the beginning was the word, and the word was With God and the word was God” John 1:1

Richard Dawkins can be considered a single entity, he is a component of the four horsemen, another entity. Without him the four horsemen would have been the three horsemen.

But Richard Dawkins is a Father, someone’s son and one of the four horseman...showing us that the one entity can present in 3 different guises.

Which of those guises is greater? Well he is a four horseman to all of us so the horseman is greater than the son.

Jesus said “I am in the father and the father in me” and wherever Richard Dawkins goes, the horseman goes too”

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50517 on: May 17, 2024, 08:47:51 AM »
“In the beginning was the word, and the word was With God and the word was God” John 1:1

Richard Dawkins can be considered a single entity, he is a component of the four horsemen, another entity. Without him the four horsemen would have been the three horsemen.

But Richard Dawkins is a Father, someone’s son and one of the four horseman...showing us that the one entity can present in 3 different guises.

Which of those guises is greater? Well he is a four horseman to all of us so the horseman is greater than the son.

Jesus said “I am in the father and the father in me” and wherever Richard Dawkins goes, the horseman goes too”

My my - your obsessive paranoia about Dawkins seems to be very intense this morning.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50518 on: May 17, 2024, 09:58:49 AM »
Gordon,

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My my - your obsessive paranoia about Dawkins seems to be very intense this morning.

Not so much an obsessive paranoia as an unrequited bromance I'd say  ;)
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50519 on: May 17, 2024, 11:10:47 AM »
Richard Dawkins can be considered a single entity, ...
Only when considering things from a narrow anthropocentric perspective. From a broader perspective Dawkins is not a single entity but is made up of numerous component  - cells, which themselves are made up of component molecules, which are themselves made up of component atoms, which are themselves made up of component sub-atomic particles.

And those components aren't contact over time as there is constant recycling and renewal of those component parts - so a bit of Dawkins (e.g. an carbon atom within a molecule of collagen in his skin) may previously have been floating around in CO2 in the air.

jeremyp

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50520 on: May 17, 2024, 11:41:03 AM »
H2O is comprised of water steam and Ice.
No it isn't. It's composed of hydrogen and oxygen. You just named three states it can be in.
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And 3 in1 Oil is the same oil performing 3 different functions

Richard Dawkins is Father, Son, and former Simonyi professor of the public awareness of science.

So, when Jesus was on Earth, God the father didn't exist and neither did the Holy Spirit. So when they killed Jesus, they killed God and there was nobody left to resurrect him.

I suggest you are talking crap.
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jeremyp

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50521 on: May 17, 2024, 11:46:37 AM »
“In the beginning was the word, and the word was With God and the word was God” John 1:1


Word salad.

When you think about it, it is nonsense, at least, the English translation is.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50522 on: May 17, 2024, 12:23:06 PM »
Only when considering things from a narrow anthropocentric perspective. From a broader perspective Dawkins is not a single entity but is made up of numerous component  - cells, which themselves are made up of component molecules, which are themselves made up of component atoms, which are themselves made up of component sub-atomic particles.

And those components aren't contact over time as there is constant recycling and renewal of those component parts - so a bit of Dawkins (e.g. an carbon atom within a molecule of collagen in his skin) may previously have been floating around in CO2 in the air.
The suggestion that we should not consider Richard Dawkins a single entity is elimination or possibly illusionism and yes I am using those words as a bad thing.

Of course in the tradition of using contradictory arguments to suit. Eliminativism and illusionism isn’t applied to the universe where the universe, for those who practice eliminativism, is suddenly more than just an illusion and is not just a collection of contingent things but a real entity and more than that, the necessary entity.

Totally inconsistent.


bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50523 on: May 17, 2024, 12:30:12 PM »
Vlad,

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The suggestion that we should not consider Richard Dawkins a single entity is elimination or possibly illusionism and yes I am using those words as a bad thing.

Of course in the tradition of using contradictory arguments to suit. Eliminativism and illusionism isn’t applied to the universe where the universe, for those who practice eliminativism, is suddenly more than just an illusion and is not just a collection of contingent things but a real entity and more than that, the necessary entity.

Totally inconsistent.

Totally incoherent more like. Do you ever bother reading your eructations here before hitting "post" to see whether they'd be comprehensible to someone using English?     
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God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50524 on: May 17, 2024, 12:32:58 PM »
Word salad.

When you think about it, it is nonsense, at least, the English translation is.
The important part here is “The word(Jesus, God the Son)was God”
Which is as clear as it gets.