Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3892539 times)

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64339
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50525 on: May 17, 2024, 12:34:22 PM »
The important part here is “The word(Jesus, God the Son)was God”
Which is as clear as it gets.
But Grease is the Word!

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33188
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50526 on: May 17, 2024, 12:40:16 PM »
Vlad,

Totally incoherent more like. Do you ever bother reading your eructations here before hitting "post" to see whether they'd be comprehensible to someone using English?     
When it comes to consciousness you are eliminativism and illusionist just like Daniel Dennett.
When it comes to the universe you forget that line of argument.

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19470
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50527 on: May 17, 2024, 12:42:14 PM »
NS,

Quote
But Grease is the Word!

Nah, bird is the word:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_48Qz_Oj6g
"Don't make me come down there."

God

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19470
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50528 on: May 17, 2024, 12:45:52 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
When it comes to consciousness you are eliminativism and illusionist just like Daniel Dennett.
When it comes to the universe you forget that line of argument.

Nope, no idea. A crossword clue maybe? How many letters?

PS I've been called many things, but never "eliminativism". Can one be an abstract noun? 
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64339
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50529 on: May 17, 2024, 12:47:50 PM »
Vlad,

Nope, no idea. A crossword clue maybe? How many letters?

PS I've been called many things, but never "eliminativism". Can one be an abstract noun?
I think it's recycled from here


https://youtu.be/H1aKzJgGHFo?si=rIIzbJJq14XJvne1

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19470
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50530 on: May 17, 2024, 01:02:00 PM »
NS,

Quote
I think it's recycled from here


https://youtu.be/H1aKzJgGHFo?si=rIIzbJJq14XJvne1

Ah, that makes sense... ;)

Just found some rare early footage of Vlad's previous career in pop music by the way from back in the day when he was more lucid – especially from 1.08 onwards!:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Gc4QTqslN4
« Last Edit: May 17, 2024, 01:21:33 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33188
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50531 on: May 17, 2024, 01:38:02 PM »
NS,

Ah, that makes sense... ;)

Just found some rare early footage of Vlad's previous career in pop music by the way from back in the day when he was more lucid – especially from 1.08 onwards!:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Gc4QTqslN4
Turd , turd polish the turd,
I say turd , turd polish the turd....

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17587
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50532 on: May 17, 2024, 01:38:07 PM »
The suggestion that we should not consider Richard Dawkins a single entity is elimination or possibly illusionism and yes I am using those words as a bad thing.
Why - unless you consider things from a narrow anthropocentric perspective Dawkins is clearly a composite of a whole range of other entities, most of which are themselves composites of further entities until you get down (probably) to the level of sub-atomic particles, which might in a fundamental (rather than anthropocentric) sense actually be single entities.

And there is no constancy in terms of which of those single entities are part of the composite that we, in a human sense, call Richard Dawkins as those entities will at other times be part of other composites - e.g. molecules in other living things, molecules existing outside of living things etc etc.

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33188
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50533 on: May 17, 2024, 01:48:29 PM »
Why - unless you consider things from a narrow anthropocentric perspective Dawkins is clearly a composite of a whole range of other entities, most of which are themselves composites of further entities until you get down (probably) to the level of sub-atomic particles, which might in a fundamental (rather than anthropocentric) sense actually be single entities.

And there is no constancy in terms of which of those single entities are part of the composite that we, in a human sense, call Richard Dawkins as those entities will at other times be part of other composites - e.g. molecules in other living things, molecules existing outside of living things etc etc.
Richard Dawkins is an entity just like the England football team is an entity and both are a composite.
Practically it would be stupid for Gary Lineker to talk about narrow anthropocentric views on Match of the Day because , to begin with It does not detract from the status of the team as an entity or is it relevant.


Do you think talking of the universe as an entity is narrowly anthropocentric?



« Last Edit: May 17, 2024, 01:51:25 PM by Walt Zingmatilder »

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64339
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50534 on: May 17, 2024, 01:51:43 PM »
Richard Dawkins is an entity just like the England football team is an entity are a composite.
Practically it would be stupid for Gary Lineker to talk about narrow anthropocentric views on Match of the Day because , to begin with It does not detract from the status of the team as an entity or is it relevant.


Do you think talking of the universe as an entity is narrowly anthropocentric?
For the purposes of discussion, perhaps, as I suggested previously you need to get an agreed definition of 'entity', and at the same time 'substance'?

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33188
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50535 on: May 17, 2024, 01:54:35 PM »
Why - unless you consider things from a narrow anthropocentric perspective Dawkins is clearly a composite of a whole range of other entities, most of which are themselves composites of further entities until you get down (probably) to the level of sub-atomic particles, which might in a fundamental (rather than anthropocentric) sense actually be single entities.

And there is no constancy in terms of which of those single entities are part of the composite that we, in a human sense, call Richard Dawkins as those entities will at other times be part of other composites - e.g. molecules in other living things, molecules existing outside of living things etc etc.
The problem with the necessity of particles is whether there existence is explained by a reason external to the particle.

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33188
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50536 on: May 17, 2024, 02:00:17 PM »
For the purposes of discussion, perhaps, as I suggested previously you need to get an agreed definition of 'entity', and at the same time 'substance'?
Agreed definitions? I'm unanimous about definitions.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64339
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50537 on: May 17, 2024, 02:05:18 PM »
Agreed definitions? I'm unanimous about definitions.
Well since you've used contingent, non contingent, and necessary in different ways over the thread, that's incorrect.

That said, if you don't want a discussion to have agreed definitions of terms, then you are merely trolling.

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33188
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50538 on: May 17, 2024, 02:23:26 PM »
Well since you've used contingent, non contingent, and necessary in different ways over the thread, that's incorrect.

That said, if you don't want a discussion to have agreed definitions of terms, then you are merely trolling.

No, You said "I" have to get agreed terms. Agreement is going to take more than me isn't.

Your tone and directing it at me as if it's my fault, deserved a tongue in cheek response.

If you want agreed definitions why just direct it all towards me?

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64339
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50539 on: May 17, 2024, 02:34:42 PM »
No, You said "I" have to get agreed terms. Agreement is going to take more than me isn't.

Your tone and directing it at me as if it's my fault, deserved a tongue in cheek response.

If you want agreed definitions why just direct it all towards me?
Because you're the one making the argument based on terms that you haven't defined, and in the case of contingent, non contingent, and necessary used in different senses.


Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33188
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50540 on: May 17, 2024, 02:41:43 PM »
Because you're the one making the argument based on terms that you haven't defined, and in the case of contingent, non contingent, and necessary used in different senses.
Aiming a demand for agreement toward one person is ridiculous.

I make efforts to define what I mean. I asked others to define what they meant by universe and frankly the response has been disappointing

But if it's my definitions you want please don't refer to them as
Agreed definitions that by some miracle I alone must come up with.

Substance- Being or essence
Entity- Something that would stand  being included as a valid step in a valid Ocham's razor argument. A being or functional unit.

Sorry these aren't agreed.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2024, 02:45:22 PM by Walt Zingmatilder »

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64339
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50541 on: May 17, 2024, 02:49:39 PM »
Aiming a demand for agreement toward one person is ridiculous.

I make efforts to define what I mean. I asked others to define what they meant by universe and frankly the response has been disappointing

But if it's my definitions you want please don't refer to them as
Agreed definitions that by some miracle I alone must come up with.

Substance- Being or essence
Entity- Something that would stand  being included as a valid step in a valid Ocham's razor argument. A being or functional unit.

Sorry these aren't agreed.
Outlining the definitions you use in an argument is aiming for agreement. If you don't reach it, then there is a question of how you want to proceed.

And that doesn't address the issue of you using terms in different ways.

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19470
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50542 on: May 17, 2024, 02:51:03 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
Agreed definitions? I'm unanimous about definitions.

Can one person be "unanimous"?
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33188
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50543 on: May 17, 2024, 02:54:30 PM »
Vlad,

Can one person be "unanimous"?
Ask Professor Davey.

Dicky Underpants

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4369
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50544 on: May 17, 2024, 03:02:19 PM »
“In the beginning was the word, and the word was With God and the word was God” John 1:1


"But of that day and hour knoweth no one, not even the angels of heaven, neither the Son, but the Father only." Matt 24:36

It's really time to let go of the rope, since you've been tying yourself in knots for far too long (your Dawkins analogies etc. though amusing, only go further in revealing the total absurdity of Christian doctrine, especially when it tries to argue for a single, undivided necessary entity). I suppose it was Aquinas who really set this obfuscating affair going, whilst playing a totally meaningless game of intellectual table tennis. His principle philosophical/religious forbears, Avicenna and Maimonides, on whom his thought is parasitic, at least were able to focus their argument on a single uncaused entity. Aquinas comes along and totally muddies the waters with contradictory Christian apologetics. Contradictory, because the very scriptures on which he and other Christians attempt to assert the total divinity of Christ are themselves contradictory (see above for one more among many, some of which come from the same evangelist).

Where you seem to differ from Aquinas is in attempting to elide any sense of distinct personages, but rather like to refer to modes of operation. This, I thought was the heresy of Sabellianism. (The weight of waffle is already weighing down my head - how do people continue with this twaddle for a lifetime?) Aquinas seems to have been at pains to keep the personages of the godhead distinct, and truly bemired himself: his only get-out clause seems to have been that "faith" would sort it all out for the believer.

However, I've no desire to get into an argument about the Trinity here: I wasted too much of my youth on such contradictory absurdities. Nor do I wish to continue the confusion by referring to the multitudinous interpretations of the atonement (though I think that Outrider, with his oblique reference to some kind of penal substitution idea I understand is not your bag, nor particularly Aquinas's). All these things simply serve to further confuse and undermine your 'contingency' argument.

You see, I puzzle why you bother. I've pointed out above that most who go to great lengths to prove a 'necessary being' or 'first cause' are anxious that this is the ultimate source of meaning and purpose for the world, and more particularly themselves. I said "What if it were evil?" If there were nothing we could do to appease such a being, then it is a remarkably jejune exercise to try to argue for its existence. We are certainly better engaged in trying to find more about the vast mysteries of the world which we can actually investigate, and sometimes manage to find real proofs of the realities which we encounter.
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

Le Bon David

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14561
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50545 on: May 17, 2024, 03:03:21 PM »
Richard Dawkins is an entity just like the England football team is an entity and both are a composite.

But you are not using the constituent parts of Richard Dawkins to make the point, you are making differing perspectives of the whole - the public persona, the scientist, the co-worker - and then using that to try to make it an equivalent to the oxymoronic depiction of the Trinity, where Jesus (as one example) is both wholly one thing (human) and wholly another (God) at the same time. Dawkins isn't 'purely' a media figure, and at the same time 'purely' a husband/scientist/philosopher/cheese appreciator...

Quote
Practically it would be stupid for Gary Lineker to talk about narrow anthropocentric views on Match of the Day because , to begin with It does not detract from the status of the team as an entity or is it relevant.

Not wanting to suggest that you're behind the times at all, but Gary Lineker's last England game was in 1992 - thirty two years ago. There are England player who've retired who weren't playing professionally back then, there are current England players who weren't even born then...

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64339
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50546 on: May 17, 2024, 03:06:23 PM »
....

Not wanting to suggest that you're behind the times at all, but Gary Lineker's last England game was in 1992 - thirty two years ago. There are England player who've retired who weren't playing professionally back then, there are current England players who weren't even born then...

O.
He's talking about Lineker, the pundit, talking about the England team as an entity on Match of the Day, not suggesting that Lineker is still playing for them.

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33188
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #50547 on: May 17, 2024, 03:52:58 PM »
    "But of that day and hour knoweth no one, not even the angels of heaven, neither the Son, but the Father only." Matt 24:36
    That's Kenosis Dicky......or have you emptied yourself of the knowledge and memory of it?
    Quote
    [/list]
    It's really time to let go of the rope, since you've been tying yourself in knots for far too long (your Dawkins analogies etc. though amusing, only go further in revealing the total absurdity of Christian doctrine, especially when it tries to argue for a single, undivided necessary entity). I suppose it was Aquinas who really set this obfuscating affair going, whilst playing a totally meaningless game of intellectual table tennis. His principle philosophical/religious forbears, Avicenna and Maimonides, on whom his thought is parasitic, at least were able to focus their argument on a single uncaused entity. Aquinas comes along and totally muddies the waters with contradictory Christian apologetics. Contradictory, because the very scriptures on which he and other Christians attempt to assert the total divinity of Christ are themselves contradictory (see above for one more among many, some of which come from the same evangelist).
    They are analogies and metaphor reminding people that you can be three thins at once and indeed present three differing personalities. For us depending on context but Dawkins being the son does not stop him simultaneously being a father or a horseman. Whether one can stretch the metaphor, who knows.

    The upshot of it is is that there aren't 3 Dawkins just 1 with 3 guises.

    Quote

    Where you seem to differ from Aquinas is in attempting to elide any sense of distinct personages, but rather like to refer to modes of operation. This, I thought was the heresy of Sabellianism. (The weight of waffle is already weighing down my head - how do people continue with this twaddle for a lifetime?) Aquinas seems to have been at pains to keep the personages of the godhead distinct, and truly bemired himself: his only get-out clause seems to have been that "faith" would sort it all out for the believer.
    Again, I use a Dawkins analogy. Dawkins fatherhood is a distinct persona. He is not father to anyone but his child, Similarly his persona as someone's son is only perceptible to his parents. He also has a public persona and is a public person and it is this in a sense that is greater. Of course this is all analogy. But these things are revealed by God, because, I would hazard it is his will to focus on our human condition.
    « Last Edit: May 17, 2024, 03:55:08 PM by Walt Zingmatilder »

    Alan Burns

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 10210
    • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
    Re: Searching for GOD...
    « Reply #50548 on: May 17, 2024, 04:05:27 PM »
    AB,

    But you’re the one asserting the humans cannot make decisions unaided, so a magic man called a “soul” must be at the controls to pull the strings. Using your own assertion about that, why then would the magic soul not need a separate magic soul of his own to pull his strings, and so on forever?
    I do not recall saying that humans cannot make decisions unaided.
    We are consciously aware of influences and constraints but they do not dictate our choices.  There are many paths to choose from in our earthly lives - you are not shackled to a roller coaster, you are the driver.  There is no need for another driver to drive you.
    Quote
    Because that’s all that any logically cogent deduction of what’s actually happening permits. You’re also trying an argmentum ad consequentiam fallacy here by the way.
    Your deduction does not reflect the fact that we are able to consciously guide our thoughts to reach verifiable conclusions.
    This is not a fallacy - it is a demonstrable reality.
    Quote
    Again, no you don’t. “Reject” and “falsify” are not the same thing. What I do is the latter, which is when you always run away from the problem your false reasoning has given you.
    I have consistently pointed out why your attempts to falsify my arguments are wrong because your logic is inherently flawed by failing to explain reality.
    Quote
    I think i grasp it better you do, which is why I know it’s idiotic. It’s “our thoughts” that construct our models of what truths might be. Truths aren’t just lying around like pebbles to be picked up – they’re human constructions, our interpretations of the observable universe. That’s why what we might think to be true on a Monday might well be different on a Tuesday. 
    Truth does not change.
    Quote
    That fallacy is called a non sequitur. What can’t they be both – why can’t you honestly believe to be true only what you want to be true?
    There can only be one ultimate truth concerning the origins and purpose of our existence
    Quote
    Can you think of one example of you rebutting a falsification I’ve given you with an actual counter-argument of your own rather than with just a repetition of your initial mistake? Just one will do.
    It is you who try to make the claim that my arguments are based on mistakes - I have to disagree for very profound reasons which you continue to reject.
    Quote
    You cannot know for certain that leprechauns don’t leave pots of gold at the ends of rainbows either. What you’ve done here (five times) is attempted a basic fallacy called shifting the burden of proof. You’re the one making the positive claims about these matters, so it’s your job to justify those claims. Just telling me effectively "nothing's impossible" instead doesn't even come close to doing that.
    I confidently predicted that you would try to answer these points by using your leprechaun analogy.  The points I made were all based on credible evidence - not so with leprechauns.
    Quote
    Can you begin to see here finally the difference between a rejection (which is what you did with a logical fallacy) and a falsification (which is what I did by explaining to you where you went wrong again)? 
    You claim to have falsified many of my arguments by comparing them with belief in leprechauns - you really need to do better.
    Quote
    Of course I can. What causal relationship do you think there is between those two things?
    What I said was that intelligent design does exist in the form of human creativity - please explain why you can deny this.
    Quote
    But you can deduce it on the basis of the available reason and evidence, and in any case that’s not my problem. You’re the one asserting it to be “totally impossible” – rather than rely on the fallacy of shifting the burden or proof again, why not then finally attempt a justifying argument to support your assertion? 
    Your ability to deduce anything is entirely dependent on your ability to consciously guide your thoughts to reach verifiable conclusions - which you deem to be a logical impossibility from your apparently unguidable sub conscious brain activity.
    Quote
    Seen and rebutted. Comprehensively.
    I think not!
    « Last Edit: May 17, 2024, 04:08:49 PM by Alan Burns »
    The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
    Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
    Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
    Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

    Dicky Underpants

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4369
    Re: Searching for GOD...
    « Reply #50549 on: May 17, 2024, 04:17:06 PM »
      That's Kenosis Dicky......or have you emptied yourself of the knowledge and memory of it?
    No, I haven't forgotten Kenosis. But merely giving a Greek word to an unfathomable concept, in the hope that by so doing you'll make the original nonsense meaningful, is just evasive woo. The concept was only elaborated (with a hint from St Paul) to try to give coherence to previous theological entanglements. Like one of John Harrison's early clocks, which he attempted to make function usefully by endless modifications. He eventually realised he needed go back to the drawing board. Perhaps you and fellow like-minded Christians might also try to cut your losses?[/list]
    « Last Edit: May 17, 2024, 04:25:04 PM by Dicky Underpants »
    "Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

    Le Bon David