Searching for GOD...

[Spud]

Have you considered that perhaps the sedative made all the difference?

Yes, but it wasn't just that. Having failed three times, they could have not bothered. I was utterly astonished.

[Gordon]

Yes, but it wasn't just that. Having failed three times, they could have not bothered. I was utterly astonished.

Spud

Naso-gastric tubes are routine, as is giving patients as sedative if they are distressed. Since the naso-gastric tube was presumably indicated for clinical reasons then of course the staff would persevere and not just abandon the procedure, since that would be to the detriment of the patient. 

[bluehillside Retd.]

Spud,

Yes, but it wasn't just that. Having failed three times, they could have not bothered.

Having failed three times without a sedative, administering a sedative is exactly what they'd have tried next.

I was utterly astonished.

Could I interest you in a bridge I have for sale?

[Spud]

Spud,

Having failed three times without a sedative, administering a sedative is exactly what they'd have tried next.

Could I interest you in a bridge I have for sale?

It wasn't, because they had already decided to insert a PEG (a feeding tube to the stomach through the abdomen) at the earliest opportunity.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Spud,

It wasn't because they had decided to insert a PEG (a feeding tube to the stomach through the abdomen)

Sedatives prior to inserting a PEG are routine:

“Most healthcare providers place PEG tubes with endoscopic surgery. Endoscopic procedures use small incisions and a long, flexible instrument called an endoscope.

On the day of surgery, you receive intravenous (IV) anesthesia and antibiotics. The anesthesia ensures that you remain calm and numb during the procedure. The antibiotic prevents infection.

You may also receive a local anesthetic. A local anesthetic is an injection of numbing medicine. You receive this injection near where your surgeon makes the incision.”

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/treatments/4911-percutaneous-endoscopic-gastrostomy-peg

[Spud]

Spud,

Sedatives prior to inserting a PEG are routine:

To clarify: they had given up with the n/g tube, and explained the PEG option and got her consent for the operation. On finding this out I spoke to a different nurse who said she might try the n/g tube once more with sedation, when she was on duty the next day. So when that time came I was praying for success.
People like to attribute success to their own skill, and that is part of it, but it is clear that the outcome was brought about because people had prayed for the patient. God did it not because of anything special about our prayers but because he wanted to humble us. That's the best explanation I can give

[Maeght]

To clarify: they had given up with the n/g tube, and explained the PEG option and got her consent for the operation. On finding this out I spoke to a different nurse who said she might try the n/g tube once more with sedation, when she was on duty the next day. So when that time came I was praying for success.
People like to attribute success to their own skill, and that is part of it, but it is clear that the outcome was brought about because people had prayed for the patient. God did it not because of anything special about our prayers but because he wanted to humble us. That's the best explanation I can give

It is certainly not clear. Far from it.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Spud,

To clarify: they had given up with the n/g tube, and explained the PEG option and got her consent for the operation. On finding this out I spoke to a different nurse who said she might try the n/g tube once more with sedation, when she was on duty the next day.

So a perfectly ordinary, unremarkable medical event that succeeded then.

So when that time came I was praying for success.

If it stopped you taking up the time of the medics that was probably a good thing.

People like to attribute success to their own skill, and that is part of it, but it is clear that the outcome was brought about because people had prayed for the patient. God did it not because of anything special about our prayers but because he wanted to humble us. That's the best explanation I can give

You fell into the trap of confirmation bias:

“Confirmation bias (also confirmatory bias, myside bias,[a] or congeniality bias[2]) is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values.[3] People display this bias when they select information that supports their views, ignoring contrary information, or when they interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing attitudes. The effect is strongest for desired outcomes, for emotionally charged issues, and for deeply entrenched beliefs. Confirmation bias is insuperable for most people, but they can manage it, for example, by education and training in critical thinking skills.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

That's the best explanation I can give.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Spud,

So a perfectly ordinary, unremarkable medical event that succeeded then.

If it stopped you taking up the time of the medics that was probably a good thing.

You fell into the trap of confirmation bias:

“Confirmation bias (also confirmatory bias, myside bias,[a] or congeniality bias[2]) is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values.[3] People display this bias when they select information that supports their views, ignoring contrary information, or when they interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing attitudes. The effect is strongest for desired outcomes, for emotionally charged issues, and for deeply entrenched beliefs. Confirmation bias is insuperable for most people, but they can manage it, for example, by education and training in critical thinking skills.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

That's the best explanation I can give.

Another atheism equals critical thinking skills post, Hillsides?

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

Another atheism equals critical thinking skills post, Hillsides?

No. Even if I was a fervent evangelical Spud's rationale would still be unjustified.

[Spud]

Spud,

So a perfectly ordinary, unremarkable medical event that succeeded then.

If it stopped you taking up the time of the medics that was probably a good thing.

You fell into the trap of confirmation bias:

“Confirmation bias (also confirmatory bias, myside bias,[a] or congeniality bias[2]) is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values.[3] People display this bias when they select information that supports their views, ignoring contrary information, or when they interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing attitudes. The effect is strongest for desired outcomes, for emotionally charged issues, and for deeply entrenched beliefs. Confirmation bias is insuperable for most people, but they can manage it, for example, by education and training in critical thinking skills.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

That's the best explanation I can give.

I can see how you would think that, and it isn't for me to persuade you that God intervened. I only know it persuaded me.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Spud,

I can see how you would think that, and it isn't for me to persuade you that God intervened. I only know it persuaded me.

Recently a friend of mine had a toothache. He went to the dentist, who tried three times without success to do the filling. I then made a sacrificial offering to the great god Ra while the dentist administered an anaesthetic. I was truly astonished when the next attempt at a filling succeeded. It’s obvious to me therefore that Ra intervened in response to my sacrifice.

It isn't for me to persuade you that Ra intervened. I only know it persuaded me.

Can you see anything wrong with my reasoning?

[Sebastian Toe]

Spud,

Recently a friend of mine had a toothache. He went to the dentist, who tried three times without success to do the filling. I then made a sacrificial offering to the great god Ra while the dentist administered an anaesthetic. I was truly astonished when the next attempt at a filling succeeded. It’s obvious to me therefore that Ra intervened in response to my sacrifice.

It isn't for me to persuade you that Ra intervened. I only know it persuaded me.

Can you see anything wrong with my reasoning?

I'm convinced.
All hail Ra.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Seb,

I'm convinced.
All hail Ra.

Welcome Brother. Now all you have to do is complete the simple admission form and pay the modest membership fee - just make the cheque to Charity Action to Support Heliocentrism ("CASH" for short) and leave the amount blank please and I'll take care of the rest....     

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I'm convinced.
All hail Ra.

I'm sure he will bless you with a sense of humour one day.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

I'm sure he will bless you with a sense of humour one day.

That's another irony meter left in a pile of springs and cogs then. 

[Spud]

AB,

She failed to offer justifying reasons for thinking her “vision” had anything to do with an actual appearance by Jesus.

Doesn't the dream that happened after she prayed, in which she was shown the future, at least hint at the possibility that the person in the vision was real?

[Outrider]

I'm sure he will bless you with a sense of humour one day.

Maybe you could give him yours, given that it's apparently unused...

O.

[Sebastian Toe]

I'm sure he will bless you with a sense of humour one day.

Maybe that will be the same day that the ability to appreciate humour will be discovered by your good self?

[Maeght]

Doesn't the dream that happened after she prayed, in which she was shown the future, at least hint at the possibility that the person in the vision was real?

No.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Spud,

Doesn't the dream that happened after she prayed, in which she was shown the future, at least hint at the possibility that the person in the vision was real?

No. There are various experiment-based hypotheses about what causes déjà vu and déjà rêvé, none of which include actually predicting the future:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A9j%C3%A0_vu

To my knowledge no-one has ever dreamt the winner of the 4.40 at Kempton Park, written it down and then found the prediction to have come true. What seems more likely is that we occasionally relate real time experiences to memories of dreams (or to associative dream memories) and are then tricked into thinking the dream predicted the experience.

Given how frequently we dream and the relative rarity of déjà vu/déjà rêvé experiences there appears to be the Texas sharpshooter fallacy at play too:

“The Texas sharpshooter fallacy is an informal fallacy which is committed when differences in data are ignored, but similarities are overemphasized. From this reasoning, a false conclusion is inferred.[1] This fallacy is the philosophical or rhetorical application of the multiple comparisons problem (in statistics) and apophenia (in cognitive psychology). It is related to the clustering illusion, which is the tendency in human cognition to interpret patterns where none actually exist.

The name comes from a metaphor about a person from Texas who fires a gun at the side of a barn, then paints a shooting target centered on the tightest cluster of shots and claims to be a sharpshooter.[2][3][4]”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_sharpshooter_fallacy

   

[Alan Burns]

Interesting testimony from Sam Shamoun on how he became a Christian

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0g7SUawvT4

One thing in common with the four testimonies I posted recently -
The people break down in genuine tears when they recount their encounter with Jesus.
Discovering the perfect love of Jesus is the most profound thing that could ever happen to you.

[Outrider]

Interesting testimony from Sam Shamoun on how he became a Christian

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0g7SUawvT4

One thing in common with the four testimonies I posted recently -
The people break down in genuine tears when they recount their encounter with Jesus.
Discovering the perfect love of Jesus is the most profound thing that could ever happen to you.

I can post video of people breaking down in genuine tears at news about New Kids on the Block, so that's not an exceptionally high bar to clear. I don't think anyone is suggesting that these people are lying, we accept that they believe this, it's just that we think they're wrong, we believe they're mistaken. To a degree, their sincerity is actually a potential detriment, as it calls into question their ability to dispassionately account for their situation and experience.

O.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

Interesting testimony from Sam Shamoun on how he became a Christian

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0g7SUawvT4

What makes you think personal testimonies are interesting when, for the reasons I’ve explained to you already, evidentially they’re largely worthless?

One thing in common with the four testimonies I posted recently -
The people break down in genuine tears when they recount their encounter with Jesus.
Discovering the perfect love of Jesus is the most profound thing that could ever happen to you.

It’s when they have a belief they’ve “encountered Jesus”, and what extra evidential value do you think tearfulness brings to the table? 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

AB,

What makes you think personal testimonies are interesting when, for the reasons I’ve explained to you already, evidentially they’re largely worthless?

And yet multiverses and infinite universes are of interest to some but not all Hillsides.Even though they lack evidence or perhaps could ever have any evidence.
I believe they are of great interest to Goddodgers and theophobes.