Searching for GOD...

[Outrider]

The logic is simple.

No, your logic is flawed, you are using the presumption of conscious control to try to demonstrate conscious control, it's a circular argument.

Time related cause and effect reactions are what they are - uncontrollable reactions cannot provide the control needed to drive rational thought processes to reach consciously verified conclusions

We don't 'consciously verify' anything. We become consciously aware of that we have subconsciously concluded that a given argument is valid - we could be wrong, our logic could be flawed, we might have erroneous precepts, whatever. The conscious awareness, though, happens after the thoughts have already been thunk.

There is no feasible explanation for how rational thought processes can emerge from uncontrolled material reactions.

On the contrary, if they are rational they flow from the evidence and the precepts, that's entirely without a need for a conscious overseer. What is the case is that there's no feasible explanation for how something can be both 'will' (i.e. a decision made upon consideration) and 'free' (i.e. not controlled by outside events) given that we are the product of outside events.

In order to try to rationalise this you need to invent things like non-material, undetectable, elements of external consciousness which unobtrusively interact with the brain because otherwise you have a conclusion you don't like - it's an argument from incredulity. It's not that the model depicted is not feasible, it's that you can't accept the conclusion and its implications.

O.

[Alan Burns]

Alan-bot's stuck in a loop. As you were told last time you posted this crap, it isn't logic, it just assertion, apparently based on an incredulity fallacy.

You still have not come up with a feasible explanation for how rational thought processes can emerge from uncontrolled material reactions.

[Stranger]

You still have not come up with a feasible explanation for how rational thought processes can emerge from uncontrolled material reactions.

Even if this was true, and nobody had given you any clue how it might happen (which it isn't, there has been a lot of discussion on the subject), this is an argument from ignorance fallacy (novice mistake in logic).   

[Alan Burns]

Even if this was true, and nobody had given you any clue how it might happen (which it isn't, there has been a lot of discussion on the subject), this is an argument from ignorance fallacy (novice mistake in logic).   

Still no feasible explanation.
My argument is from reality - the reality which demonstrates our power perform rational thinking to reach consciously verified conclusions.
Where does this power emanate from and what controls it?

[Alan Burns]

On the contrary, if they are rational they flow from the evidence and the precepts, that's entirely without a need for a conscious overseer. What is the case is that there's no feasible explanation for how something can be both 'will' (i.e. a decision made upon consideration) and 'free' (i.e. not controlled by outside events) given that we are the product of outside events.

Evidence and precepts alone do not define rational thought processes.
They are a starting point at which we are aware of evidence and precepts from where we can consciously manipulate the evidence and precepts to form verified conclusions.

The controlling is done from within - "you".

[Stranger]

Still no feasible explanation.

Still untrue and an argument from ignorance fallacy (dimwitted logical mistake).

My argument is from reality....

No. Your argument is from the simple-minded assumption that the superficial way it seems to be, if you don't bother to think about it, do any honest introspection, or apply any logic to it, is the way it is. You them cling to it desperately, running away from any actual reasoning, and terrified to learn any critical thinking, because it might threaten your blind faith.

Where does this power emanate from and what controls it?

Alan-bot stuck in a loop again.   

[Stranger]

The controlling is done from within - "you".

And "you" is the result of the past (nature, nurture, and experience). If it's not entirely down to those things, then there is some randomness. There is no third option.

[Alan Burns]

No. Your argument is from the simple-minded assumption that the superficial way it seems to be, if you don't bother to think about it, do any honest introspection, or apply any logic to it, is the way it is. You them cling to it desperately, running away from any actual reasoning, and terrified to learn any critical thinking, because it might threaten your blind faith.

It is not the way it "seems to be" - it is the way it is.
Still no explanation for what can control the honest introspection or apply logic or perform critical thinking.

[Stranger]

I think the Alan-bot needs restarting.

It is not the way it "seems to be" - it is the way it is.

This is just childish foot-stamping.

Still no explanation for what can control the honest introspection or apply logic or perform critical thinking.

And this is still false and an argument from ignorance fallacy (dimwitted mistake in logic).

Repeating assertions, falsehoods, and fallacies is never going to turn them into logic.

[Sebastian Toe]

You still have not come up with a feasible explanation for how rational thought processes can emerge from uncontrolled material reactions.

Let's see if you can come up with feasible explanations for your favourite, soul.

Where does your soul emanate from?
How is it assigned to your body?
Where does it reside?
What does it do when you are unconscious/asleep?
How does it connect with your brain?
How does it manipulate the physical brain given that it is itself not physical?
How does it "verify" things?

Remember... feasible!

[Alan Burns]

Let's see if you can come up with feasible explanations for your favourite, soul.

Where does your soul emanate from?
How is it assigned to your body?
Where does it reside?
What does it do when you are unconscious/asleep?
How does it connect with your brain?
How does it manipulate the physical brain given that it is itself not physical?
How does it "verify" things?

Remember... feasible!

Only God knows how our soul interacts with our material body.
God has given us sufficient knowledge of the material world to know that materialism alone can never give us the freedom we all enjoy and use as human beings.  We know the soul exists by what it does - it gives us the freedom to think, to worship and to choose our own destiny as God intended.

[Alan Burns]

No, your logic is flawed, you are using the presumption of conscious control to try to demonstrate conscious control, it's a circular argument.

I do not presume conscious control.
I do not need to try to demonstrate it.
I simply witness to the reality of our conscious control by saying what it does - it enables us to consciously guide our thoughts towards consciously chosen goals and achieve consciously verified conclusions.

[Stranger]

I do not presume conscious control.
I do not need to try to demonstrate it.
I simply witness to the reality of our conscious control by saying what it does - it enables us to consciously guide our thoughts towards consciously chosen goals and achieve consciously verified conclusions.

More dimwitted, thought-free assertion that how things seem, at the most superficial level, are how they are.

How about an update? Is nobody developing Alan-bot v2.0?

[jeremyp]

Only God knows how our soul interacts with our material body.
God has given us sufficient knowledge of the material world to know that materialism alone can never give us the freedom we all enjoy and use as human beings.  We know the soul exists by what it does - it gives us the freedom to think, to worship and to choose our own destiny as God intended.

That’s a long winded way to say “I don’t know”.

Just be aware that your unevidenced assertions Won’t convince any of use that you have the truth. You might as well save time and give up.

[Sebastian Toe]

Only God knows how our soul interacts with our material body.
God has given us sufficient knowledge of the material world to know that materialism alone can never give us the freedom we all enjoy and use as human beings.  We know the soul exists by what it does - it gives us the freedom to think, to worship and to choose our own destiny as God intended.

So your evidence is God does it and it feels right to you.
Yet you have the unashamed audacity to claim that others can't show proofs.

I'm embarrassed for you.

[Alan Burns]

More dimwitted, thought-free assertion that how things seem, at the most superficial level, are how they are.

But surely it is this "superficial level" which is responsible for all human critical thinking, rationalisation and reaching consciously verified conclusions.
You seem to presume that all this can be accomplished by subconscious brain activity beyond our conscious control.
Can you not see that this presumption is entirely dependent on your ability to consciously contemplate the factors involved in order to reach your conscious conclusions?
You need to get to grips with reality.

[jeremyp]

But surely it is this "superficial level" which is responsible for all human critical thinking, rationalisation and reaching consciously verified conclusions.
You seem to presume that all this can be accomplished by subconscious brain activity beyond our conscious control.
Can you not see that this presumption is entirely dependent on your ability to consciously contemplate the factors involved in order to reach your conscious conclusions?
You need to get to grips with reality.

You really need to stop accusing other people of presumption.

[Sebastian Toe]

But surely it is this "superficial level" which is responsible for all human critical thinking, rationalisation and reaching consciously verified conclusions.
You seem to presume that all this can be accomplished by subconscious brain activity beyond our conscious control.
Can you not see that this presumption is entirely dependent on your ability to consciously contemplate the factors involved in order to reach your conscious conclusions?
You need to get to grips with reality.

Can you not see that your "grip on reality" is based entirely on logic free, magic requiring errant nonsense?

[torridon]

..
God has given us sufficient knowledge of the material world to know that materialism alone can never give us the freedom we all enjoy and use as human beings.  We know the soul exists by what it does - it gives us the freedom to think, to worship and to choose our own destiny as God intended.

Or it could be that these things are the products of regular brain functioning.  After all, we do know that brains actually exist, whereas we have no evidence whatsoever for immaterial souls and suchlike.

[torridon]

Still no feasible explanation.
My argument is from reality - the reality which demonstrates our power perform rational thinking to reach consciously verified conclusions.
Where does this power emanate from and what controls it?

Orangutans build a new nest every day and in this activity they demonstrate forward planning and innovative thinking.  Where does the orangutan's power emanate from and what controls it ?

[Alan Burns]

Orangutans build a new nest every day and in this activity they demonstrate forward planning and innovative thinking.  Where does the orangutan's power emanate from and what controls it ?

Predictable animal behaviour can be attributed to biological instinct built up from evolutionary traits.  Hard to compare this to the human ability to contemplate the reality we live in and come up with such things as Einstein's theory of relativity or Darwin's theory of evolution - or even your ability to perform the mental gymnastics needed to try to explain away your own freedom to consciously choose your thoughts, words and deeds.

[torridon]

Predictable animal behaviour can be attributed to biological instinct built up from evolutionary traits.  Hard to compare this to the human ability to contemplate the reality we live in and come up with such things as Einstein's theory of relativity or Darwin's theory of evolution - or even your ability to perform the mental gymnastics needed to try to explain away your own freedom to consciously choose your thoughts, words and deeds.

Predictability is a sliding scale.  There are places in the US where we can make a fairly good prediction of how people vote from the underlying geology. You are very predictable, I could have put money on you coming up with your usual script rather than engaging with the insights that can be learned from animal behaviour.  You see, to build their nests, orangutans have to think outside the box sometimes, to innovate to find novel solutions to particular circumstances.  You ought to take a lesson from them, you seem to be stuck in a very small box which you never make the effort to think outside of.

[Sebastian Toe]

Predictable animal behaviour can be attributed to biological instinct built up from evolutionary traits.  Hard to compare this to the human ability to contemplate the reality we live in and come up with such things as Einstein's theory of relativity or Darwin's theory of evolution - or even your ability to perform the mental gymnastics needed to try to explain away your own freedom to consciously choose your thoughts, words and deeds.

Hilarious!
You need an entire Olympic gymnastics team to "explain" your soul and how it works.

[Alan Burns]

Predictability is a sliding scale.  There are places in the US where we can make a fairly good prediction of how people vote from the underlying geology. You are very predictable, I could have put money on you coming up with your usual script rather than engaging with the insights that can be learned from animal behaviour.  You see, to build their nests, orangutans have to think outside the box sometimes, to innovate to find novel solutions to particular circumstances.  You ought to take a lesson from them, you seem to be stuck in a very small box which you never make the effort to think outside of.

I certainly am able to think outside the box of physically determined reactions.

[torridon]

I certainly am able to think outside the box of physically determined reactions.

So get your head round the fact that many species display evidence of creativity and simple reasoning skills, this is not a strictly humans-only feature.  Humans may have far greater capacity for mental abstraction, and the reason for this is that we evolved an enlarged prefrontal cortex, it is not that Homo Sapiens, uniquely in the animal kingdom, comes equipped with supernatural powers