Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3870961 times)

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #51500 on: September 03, 2024, 12:20:13 PM »
A lot of formerly-believing non-believers say that abandoning faith gave them a great sense of liberation, so it cuts both ways. Anyway, subjective feelings have nothing to do with objective truth. Even if humans were hard-wired for belief, that could easily be explaned in evolutionary terms.
There are though culturally conditioned beliefs as well as convictions that we have to navigate. I agree feelings only take you so far.

Spud

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #51501 on: September 03, 2024, 04:43:57 PM »
There's no requirement that one of them must be historically accurate. Both could be wrong.
Bearing in mind that both Mark and Matthew were writing long after the events in question, there's no reason to believe the one who was writing first had the correct story. Spoiler: he didn't.
Luke 8:3 says that one of the women Jesus healed and who became a disciple was "Joanna the wife of Herod’s household manager Chuza". That's one reason to believe one or both have the correct story.

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #51502 on: September 03, 2024, 06:37:28 PM »
Luke 8:3 says that one of the women Jesus healed and who became a disciple was "Joanna the wife of Herod’s household manager Chuza". That's one reason to believe one or both have the correct story.

Not at all.

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #51503 on: September 03, 2024, 06:49:16 PM »
Luke 8:3 says that one of the women Jesus healed and who became a disciple was "Joanna the wife of Herod’s household manager Chuza". That's one reason to believe one or both have the correct story.

Do you think it is possible that this is an example of fiction?                                                                                                                                         

jeremyp

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #51504 on: September 04, 2024, 12:43:26 PM »
Luke 8:3 says that one of the women Jesus healed and who became a disciple was "Joanna the wife of Herod’s household manager Chuza". That's one reason to believe one or both have the correct story.
Is it? Why? Neither Matthew nor Mark mention Joanna. Maybe Luke made her up.
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Spud

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #51505 on: September 05, 2024, 08:18:26 AM »
Is it? Why?
Maybe it would have been better to say that their accounts are more believable than if there was no mention anywhere of a potential source of the information.
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Neither Matthew nor Mark mention Joanna.
They do indirectly: there were women present at Jesus' death who had followed and ministered to him in Galilee, according to both.
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Maybe Luke made her up.
I recall from GCSE Religious Studies that Luke relied quite heavily on the testimony of women. Would he have chosen to make this up, assuming that a man's testimony might have been considered more reliable at the time?

ekim

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #51506 on: September 05, 2024, 10:14:34 AM »
I recall from GCSE Religious Studies that Luke relied quite heavily on the testimony of women. Would he have chosen to make this up, assuming that a man's testimony might have been considered more reliable at the time?
Maybe the women made it up and Luke just selected what fitted his agenda.

jeremyp

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #51507 on: September 05, 2024, 10:21:53 AM »
Maybe it would have been better to say that their accounts are more believable than if there was no mention anywhere of a potential source of the information.
That's true, but we know the bare bones of the account are correct because Josephus mentions the execution of John the Baptist.

There's no potential source, by the way, for a lot of things that are mentioned in the gospels. There's no chance that anybody knew what really happened when Jesus was alone in the Garden of Gethsemene, nor at his trial before Pilate or even any of the events after the disciples all fled following Jesus' arrest.

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They do indirectly: there were women present at Jesus' death who had followed and ministered to him in Galilee, according to both.
But she is not named, so it is pure supposition on your part to assume she was there.

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I recall from GCSE Religious Studies that Luke relied quite heavily on the testimony of women. Would he have chosen to make this up, assuming that a man's testimony might have been considered more reliable at the time?
Luke relied mostly on Mark, Matthew/Q and the Old Testament. There's no evidence in Luke of him using any testimony from anybody who was there. In fact the prologue seems to deny it, claiming he used earlier written accounts.
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #51508 on: September 08, 2024, 09:52:25 AM »
If I ever needed a reminder of what Christian faith is about and how important it is in our lives, it is all in this remarkable 30 minute interview - which has had over two million views in just two weeks:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqkzpZYLwTs
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Aruntraveller

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #51509 on: September 08, 2024, 10:41:02 AM »
If I ever needed a reminder of what Christian faith is about and how important it is in our lives, it is all in this remarkable 30 minute interview - which has had over two million views in just two weeks:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqkzpZYLwTs

Very nice for him.

I am slightly puzzled though. As an atheist I've never had an opiate addiction, or indeed any addiction whatsoever (chocolate does not count). So it just seems ridiculous to claim that the "grace of God" solved their addiction - as many claim in the comments section. Isn't it much more likely that they have addictive personalities and use "God" as one method/tactic to avoid falling back into addiction. God doesn't do anything. The person does. There are plenty of people who have recovered from addiction regardless of their religion or lack thereof.

In other words, Alice is reaching.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #51510 on: September 08, 2024, 12:15:15 PM »
Belief in things can change people. Who'd have thought it.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #51511 on: September 08, 2024, 05:08:53 PM »
Very nice for him.

I am slightly puzzled though. As an atheist I've never had an opiate addiction, or indeed any addiction whatsoever (chocolate does not count). So it just seems ridiculous to claim that the "grace of God" solved their addiction - as many claim in the comments section. Isn't it much more likely that they have addictive personalities and use "God" as one method/tactic to avoid falling back into addiction. God doesn't do anything. The person does. There are plenty of people who have recovered from addiction regardless of their religion or lack thereof.

In other words, Alice is reaching.
The cure from addiction is just part of the story.
What comes to me from this video is the realisation of how important Jesus is in our lives.
Alice claims Jesus to be the number one priority in his life - with Alice Cooper coming in about fifth.
He also highlights that no worldly possessions, pleasures or achievements can ever match the fulfilment of allowing Jesus Christ into your life.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

jeremyp

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #51512 on: September 08, 2024, 05:17:01 PM »
The cure from addiction is just part of the story.
What comes to me from this video is the realisation of how important Jesus is in our lives.
Jesus is only important in my life as a historical puzzle. So much has been written about him and yet, historically, we know almost nothing.

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Alice claims Jesus to be the number one priority in his life - with Alice Cooper coming in about fifth.
Probably quite easy for a man who has made a fortune through music.
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He also highlights that no worldly possessions, pleasures or achievements can ever match the fulfilment of allowing Jesus Christ into your life.
I'll believe that when he gives away all his worldly possessions which are probably considerable.
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Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #51513 on: September 08, 2024, 05:26:08 PM »
The cure from addiction is just part of the story.
What comes to me from this video is the realisation of how important Jesus is in our lives.
Alice claims Jesus to be the number one priority in his life - with Alice Cooper coming in about fifth.
He also highlights that no worldly possessions, pleasures or achievements can ever match the fulfilment of allowing Jesus Christ into your life.

Your life. Alice Cooper's life, maybe. Not mine.

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #51514 on: September 08, 2024, 08:12:30 PM »
The cure from addiction is just part of the story.
What comes to me from this video is the realisation of how important Jesus is in our lives.
Alice claims Jesus to be the number one priority in his life - with Alice Cooper coming in about fifth.
He also highlights that no worldly possessions, pleasures or achievements can ever match the fulfilment of allowing Jesus Christ into your life.

'Jesus' is utterly irrelevant to me, and my family, so as usual you are conflating what is important to to with what is important to others, and for some of us 'Jesus' is about as important as 'Pinocchio' (or Alice Cooper) in our lives.



 

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #51515 on: September 08, 2024, 10:35:14 PM »
'Jesus' is utterly irrelevant to me, and my family, so as usual you are conflating what is important to to with what is important to others, and for some of us 'Jesus' is about as important as 'Pinocchio' (or Alice Cooper) in our lives.
We are all children of God, brought into existence not from the random, unguided purposeless forces of nature which are inherently destructive - but from a source of unimaginable creativity which has revealed to us our divine reason to live through the person of Jesus Christ.  What could be more important than discovering the reason we exist?
« Last Edit: September 09, 2024, 08:02:55 AM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #51516 on: September 08, 2024, 11:41:41 PM »
We are all children of God, brought into existence not from the random, unguided purposeless forces of nature which are inherently destructive - but from a source of unimaginable creativity which has revealed to us our divine reason to live through the person of Jesus Christ.  What could be more important that discovering the reason we exist?
Cheese.

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #51517 on: September 09, 2024, 07:03:26 AM »
We are all children of God, brought into existence not from the random, unguided purposeless forces of nature which are inherently destructive - but from a source of unimaginable creativity which has revealed to us our divine reason to live through the person of Jesus Christ.  What could be more important that discovering the reason we exist?

Not being fooled by a mindless fantasy.

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #51518 on: September 09, 2024, 07:31:33 AM »
We are all children of God, brought into existence not from the random, unguided purposeless forces of nature which are inherently destructive - but from a source of unimaginable creativity which has revealed to us our divine reason to live through the person of Jesus Christ.  What could be more important that discovering the reason we exist?

Discovering the real reasons, rather than self-gratifying fantasies.

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #51519 on: September 09, 2024, 07:49:33 AM »
We are all children of God, brought into existence not from the random, unguided purposeless forces of nature which are inherently destructive - but from a source of unimaginable creativity which has revealed to us our divine reason to live through the person of Jesus Christ.

The mindless assertion factory is back up and running, I see.   ::)

What could be more important that discovering the reason we exist?

Reality.

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Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #51520 on: September 09, 2024, 08:01:38 AM »
We are all children of God, brought into existence not from the random, unguided purposeless forces of nature which are inherently destructive - but from a source of unimaginable creativity which has revealed to us our divine reason to live through the person of Jesus Christ.  What could be more important that discovering the reason we exist?

That is your belief but I don't share that belief so Jesus has no relevance to my life. An interesting historical topic as others have said but otherwise nothing. You know that of course though. Studying the origins of life and everything through scientific processes is interesting and could be important but as far as I see God and Jesus don't come into that.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2024, 08:04:49 AM by Maeght »

jeremyp

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #51521 on: September 09, 2024, 01:03:27 PM »
We are all children of God, brought into existence not from the random, unguided purposeless forces of nature which are inherently destructive - but from a source of unimaginable creativity which has revealed to us our divine reason to live through the person of Jesus Christ.  What could be more important than discovering the reason we exist?

The reason we exist, if you can call it a reason, is that our parents and all of our ancestors back to the beginning of life on Earth were better at surviving than their contemporaries.

If we have a purpose, it is to propagate our genes, although that does kind of imply some sort of agency to the forces that brought us into being and there is none.

You may not like that, but the universe doesn't care about your likes and dislikes.
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #51522 on: September 09, 2024, 03:34:10 PM »
The reason we exist, if you can call it a reason, is that our parents and all of our ancestors back to the beginning of life on Earth were better at surviving than their contemporaries.

If we have a purpose, it is to propagate our genes, although that does kind of imply some sort of agency to the forces that brought us into being and there is none.

You may not like that, but the universe doesn't care about your likes and dislikes.
The material universe certainly has no remit to care about anything.
The concept of likes and dislikes arise from conscious awareness for which we have no material definition or explanation.
Before you can get to the propagation of genes or the concept of survival - there is a monumental task of creating living cells capable of reproduction, followed by the organisation of these cells to facilitate sexual reproduction.
Here is an interesting short video of a top eye surgeon who was an atheist prior to contemplating the amazing complexity of the human eye.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43pQSZ4tVbM
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #51523 on: September 09, 2024, 03:38:10 PM »
The material universe certainly has no remit to care about anything.
The concept of likes and dislikes arise from conscious awareness for which we have no material definition or explanation.
Before you can get to the propagation of genes or the concept of survival - there is a monumental task of creating living cells capable of reproduction, followed by the organisation of these cells to facilitate sexual reproduction.
Here is an interesting short video of a top eye surgeon who was an atheist prior to contemplating the amazing complexity of the human eye.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43pQSZ4tVbM

Clearly not an evolutionary biologist.

Stranger

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #51524 on: September 09, 2024, 03:42:56 PM »
The concept of likes and dislikes arise from conscious awareness for which we have no material definition or explanation.

You say that as if you have a non-material alternative. "It's magic, innit?" is not a definition or explanation.

Before you can get to the propagation of genes or the concept of survival - there is a monumental task of creating living cells capable of reproduction, followed by the organisation of these cells to facilitate sexual reproduction.
Here is an interesting short video of a top eye surgeon who was an atheist prior to contemplating the amazing complexity of the human eye.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43pQSZ4tVbM

YAWN!
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