Searching for GOD...

[Alan Burns]

AB,
 

It’s a rigged game though isn’t it. First the rules prohibit same sex marriage, and then they say sex outside of marriage is sinful. What then are gay people supposed to do, and what the hell business is it of your religion to pronounce on that issue in any case?

It would appear that you, and many others, give a very high priority to sexual gratification in our human lives.
But along with other worldly aims such as money, possessions, fame, power ... these fail to satisfy our need for happy, fulfilled lives.
So what does make us happy and fulfilled?  in a word - love.
One of the common themes in the many testimonies I have heard from people encountering Jesus for the first time in their lives is the overwhelming feeling of being loved.  It is a love which is unlike anything they have experienced before - it is unconditional and eternal.  We are all tempted away from God's love by succumbing to the false promises of worldly aims, but as the psalmist said, "In God alone is my soul at rest" (Psalm 62).

Here is just one of many testimonies of an encounter with God's love through Jesus Christ.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9T_05GikkFU

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

It would appear that you, and many others, give a very high priority to sexual gratification in our human lives.

I have no idea why you think that. The sexual drive in most species is clearly important though.

But along with other worldly aims such as money, possessions, fame, power ... these fail to satisfy our need for happy, fulfilled lives.

For some maybe, for other not.

So what does make us happy and fulfilled?  in a word - love.

Many people who aren’t loved or in love lead happy and fulfilled lives.

One of the common themes in the many testimonies I have heard from people encountering Jesus for the first time in their lives is the overwhelming feeling of being loved.  It is a love which is unlike anything they have experienced before - it is unconditional and eternal.  We are all tempted away from God's love by succumbing to the false promises of worldly aims, but as the psalmist said, "In God alone is my soul at rest" (Psalm 62).

Here is just one of many testimonies of an encounter with God's love through Jesus Christ.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9T_05GikkFU

A ”testimonial” is just an explanation that seems sensible to the person expressing it. Many have expressed testimonials just as sincerely about their supposed encounters with Allah, Zeus and Āhuiatēteoh too. You’ve provided no reasoning though to demonstrate that anyone has any more actually encountered Jesus than they have encountered these (or any other supposed) gods.     

[Alan Burns]

A ”testimonial” is just an explanation that seems sensible to the person expressing it. Many have expressed testimonials just as sincerely about their supposed encounters with Allah, Zeus and Āhuiatēteoh too. You’ve provided no reasoning though to demonstrate that anyone has any more actually encountered Jesus than they have encountered these (or any other supposed) gods.   

To substantiate this claim, you would need to show examples of such testimonials about personal encounters with Allah, Zeus and Āhuiatēteoh.  The Allah portrayed in the Koran certainly shows no signs of the personal love depicted in testified encounters with Jesus.  Many of the most powerful testimonies are from Muslims and Jews who previously had no faith in Jesus.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

To substantiate this claim, you would need to show examples of such testimonials about personal encounters with Allah, Zeus and Āhuiatēteoh.

Are you seriously suggesting that many people at many times in many places haven’t believed that they’ve “encountered” their various gods just as sincerely as you think you encountered Jesus, ie that theophany isn’t a phenomenon? Oh well – try here for multiple examples nonetheless:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theophany

The Allah portrayed in the Koran certainly shows no signs of the personal love depicted in testified encounters with Jesus.

Relevance? That you find the notion of a “loving” god appealing tells you nothing at all about whether you’ve actually encountered one. This is just another example of your reliance on the argumentum ad consequentiam fallacy.   

Many of the most powerful testimonies are from Muslims and Jews who previously had no faith in Jesus.

And vice versa, and in any case all were enculturated first to the Jesus story. Why is it though that there are are no examples of, say, previously undiscovered Amazonian tribespeople who also think they’ve “encountered” Jesus? Why does Jesus only show up for people already familiar with the Jesus story? Funny that. 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

AB,

Are you seriously suggesting that many people at many times in many places haven’t believed that they’ve “encountered” their various gods just as sincerely as you think you encountered Jesus, ie that theophany isn’t a phenomenon? Oh well – try here for multiple examples nonetheless:

Not sure you’ve completely got it here.
Meeting God is not as ubiquitous as you make out.
Judaism and Christianity have the same tradition of encounter and response.
Islam broadly would argue we don’t encounter God
Hinduism tends to say all are God so I would be encountering God via your posts
Nature Gods? Well we encounter nature.
Greek Gods notionally could be visited by a stroll up Mt Olympus so we are not looking at encounter in the Hudson Christian sense.
I think you could be seriously overgeneralising here, a danger in believing New Atheism.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

AB,

Are you seriously suggesting that many people at many times in many places haven’t believed that they’ve “encountered” their various gods just as sincerely as you think you encountered Jesus, ie that theophany isn’t a phenomenon? Oh well – try here for multiple examples nonetheless:

Not sure you’ve completely got it here.
Meeting God is not as ubiquitous as you make out.
Judaism and Christianity have the same tradition of encounter and response.
Islam broadly would argue we don’t encounter God
Hinduism tends to say all are God so I would be encountering God via your posts
Nature Gods? Well we encounter nature.
Greek Gods notionally could be visited by a stroll up Mt Olympus so we are not looking at encounter in the Hudson Christian sense.
I think you could be seriously overgeneralising here, a danger in believing New Atheism.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

Not sure you’ve completely got it here.
Meeting God is not as ubiquitous as you make out.
Judaism and Christianity have the same tradition of encounter and response.
Islam broadly would argue we don’t encounter God
Hinduism tends to say all are God so I would be encountering God via your posts
Nature Gods? Well we encounter nature.
Greek Gods notionally could be visited by a stroll up Mt Olympus so we are not looking at encounter in the Hudson Christian sense.
I think you could be seriously overgeneralising here, a danger in believing New Atheism.

The fact that many people think they’ve encountered the various gods with which they happen to be most enculturated just as sincerely as some Christians think they’ve encountered Jesus remains the point.

If you (or AB) think there’s a sound reason to treat the stories of encounters with Jesus any more seriously than we should treat the stories of encounters with any other gods, then you (or he) can attempt that argument.   

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

The fact that many people think they’ve encountered the various gods with which they happen to be most enculturated just as sincerely as some Christians think they’ve encountered Jesus remains the point.

If you (or AB) think there’s a sound reason to treat the stories of encounters with Jesus any more seriously than we should treat the stories of encounters with any other gods, then you (or he) can attempt that argument.

Again. It’s what is meant  by encountered here. Not all encounters are theophanic according to your Wikipedia reference. I cannot go down your road and lump them together.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

Again. It’s what is meant  by encountered here. Not all encounters are theophanic according to your Wikipedia reference. I cannot go down your road and lump them together.

I've no idea what AB means by it, but the recounting of supposed meetings with various gods made manifest seems to be quite common across a range of religious traditions. If AB (or you) think the supposed encounters with Jesus have something special about them that makes them more likely to be justified than the rest, then he (or you) can attempt an argument for that.   

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

I've no idea what AB means by it, but the recounting of supposed meetings with various gods made manifest seems to be quite common across a range of religious traditions. If AB (or you) think the supposed encounters with Jesus have something special about them that makes them more likely to be justified than the rest, then he (or you) can attempt an argument for that.

My understanding is that a theophany is an empirically detected divine manifestation. But there can be several interpretations of that phrase. Is Christ a theophany or was his empirical humanity just that with a non empirical awareness of his divinity in those who come to God through him

If you think all is God, how, even with an empirical encounter, can you say, that particular manifestation is exclusively God? I don’t begin to suppose your analysis answers these questions.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

My understanding is that a theophany is an empirically detected divine manifestation.

Then your understanding is wrong. Stories about encounters with gods are essentially anecdotes – there’s nothing “empirical” about them in the sense of there being objectively verifiable evidence to support them.

But there can be several interpretations of that phrase. Is Christ a theophany or was his empirical humanity just that with a non empirical awareness of his divinity in those who come to God through him

What are you trying to say here? AB claims that people have “encountered” Jesus long after the mortal Jesus (if there ever was such) was dead. Other people claim the same thing about their various gods too. So what?   

If you think all is God, how, even with an empirical encounter can you say, that particular manifestation is exclusively God? I don’t begin to suppose your analysis answers these questions.

They’re not questions – they’re alphabet soup, or bad hands at scrabble at best. Perhaps it would help if you tried to express yourself in comprehensible English? 

[Dicky Underpants]

Not sure you’ve completely got it here.
Meeting God is not as ubiquitous as you make out.
Judaism and Christianity have the same tradition of encounter and response

You need to revisit your Old Testament. The tradition there of 'meeting God' is nothing like that claimed by certain branches of Christianity (and only some of those; latterly mostly evangelical).
The OT certainly has various instances of very select individuals meeting God, but they become less and less frequent as the OT narrative continues, petering out to nothing.
Richard Elliot Friedman will help you out here.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

Then your understanding is wrong. Stories about encounters with gods are essentially anecdotes – there’s nothing “empirical” about them in the sense of there being objectively verifiable evidence to support them.

I cannot say that they are not empirical. If you are asserting they are not then you know what your duty is. I cannot say my encounter was with something physical and philosophically speaking there is no obligation for me to so do

What are you trying to say here? AB claims that people have “encountered” Jesus long after the mortal Jesus (if there ever was such) was dead. Other people claim the same thing about their various gods too. So what? 

  Can you give an example since there are religions where that isn’t the case and if they are monotheistic religions then it is doubtful your reference to God’s plural is relevant

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

I cannot say that they are not empirical.

Now you’ve shifted ground from thinking that “...theophany is an empirically detected divine manifestation” to telling us that you can’t say it isn’t. I can’t say that leprechauns don’t leave pots of gold at the end of rainbows either. So what though?

If you are asserting they are not then you know what your duty is.

I’m not, and my “duty” is just to point out that you’ve tried two of your favourite fallacies here – the straw man and shifting the burden of proof.

I cannot say my encounter was with something physical and philosophically speaking there is no obligation for me to so do

There is if you want anyone else to think your claim about that is any more credible than my claim to have met a leprechaun. 

Can you give an example since there are religions where that isn’t the case and if they are monotheistic religions then it is doubtful your reference to God’s plural is relevant

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theophany

[Alan Burns]

AB,

Are you seriously suggesting that many people at many times in many places haven’t believed that they’ve “encountered” their various gods just as sincerely as you think you encountered Jesus, ie that theophany isn’t a phenomenon? Oh well – try here for multiple examples nonetheless:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theophany

I was not referring to any generalised testimonies of encounters with Gods.

I was asking you to provide examples of testimonies in which people encounter a profound and unexpected experience of God's love for them.  The point I was making was that the recent testimonies I have viewed all show a life changing awareness of God's unconditional love for them in the person of Jesus Christ.

Did you actually view the link I gave?  I can offer you dozens more of a similar nature, but I seriously doubt you can find any testimonies of similar encounters with other Gods.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

I was not referring to any generalised testimonies of encounters with Gods.

I was asking you to provide examples of testimonies in which people encounter a profound and unexpected experience of God's love for them.  The point I was making was that the recent testimonies I have viewed all show a life changing awareness of God's unconditional love for them in the person of Jesus Christ.

No, they just show a life-changing belief that they thought they’d encountered “a profound and unexpected experience of God's love for them”. And as it seems to have passed you by, once again: the emotional content of the supposed encounter (love, hate, whatever) HAS NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH WHETHER OR NOT AN ENCOUNTER ACTUALLY HAPPENED. You’re just repeating the argumentum ad consequentiam fallacy here that you tried a few posts ago. 

If you’d lived in Egypt in the 25th century BC and believed you’d had a divine “encounter” you’d likely have been just as convinced that you’d met Osiris too. It’s a characteristic of such explanatory narratives that people reach for the gods most proximate in time and place to them for their cause. You’re no exception to that, though this doesn’t seem to give you even so much as pause. It really should though.   

Did you actually view the link I gave?  I can offer you dozens more of a similar nature, but I seriously doubt you can find any testimonies of similar encounters with other Gods.

   

Why on earth would anyone want to do that? You need to address your a priori question of why personal testimonies have any evidential value at all before you expect people to read them. 

[Outrider]

It would appear that you, and many others, give a very high priority to sexual gratification in our human lives.

Yep.

But along with other worldly aims such as money, possessions, fame, power ... these fail to satisfy our need for happy, fulfilled lives.

I don't like to diagnose over the internet, but if that's the case for you, you're doing it wrongly.

So what does make us happy and fulfilled?  in a word - love.

Sex is one of my favourite ways of showing love, and in particular of showing my wife that the way I love her is different to the ways I love other people.

One of the common themes in the many testimonies I have heard from people encountering Jesus for the first time in their lives is the overwhelming feeling of being loved.

When you've got something missing in your life, empty promises can be enticing.

It is a love which is unlike anything they have experienced before - it is unconditional and eternal.

Or imaginary. Or both.

We are all tempted away from God's love by succumbing to the false promises of worldly aims, but as the psalmist said, "In God alone is my soul at rest" (Psalm 62).

No, we're not. Some of us realise that the promise of God's love is a con. It's always just out of reach, it's 'the next life'. Suffer here, but give me your money/lives/political support in the meantime...

Here is just one of many testimonies of an encounter with God's love through Jesus Christ.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9T_05GikkFU

Behold, he has the power of.... anecdotes!!!!

O.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

Now you’ve shifted ground from thinking that “...theophany is an empirically detected divine manifestation” to telling us that you can’t say it isn’t. I can’t say that leprechauns don’t leave pots of gold at the end of rainbows either. So what though?

Appeal to ridicule.
I

[torridon]

..
I was asking you to provide examples of testimonies in which people encounter a profound and unexpected experience of God's love for them.  The point I was making was that the recent testimonies I have viewed all show a life changing awareness of God's unconditional love for them in the person of Jesus Christ.
..

You are cherry picking your anecdotes to suit your bias, happily promoting stories of positive unsought 'encounters' but overlooking the less eye catching stories of those who seek but do not find, getting zero response from this God to their appeals for an encounter.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

Appeal to ridicule.

As I’ve corrected you on this several times now only for you to repeat the same mistake once more here, here’s a link to Wiki on the argmentum ad absurdum. Perhaps you could try to work it out for yourself this time:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

[Alan Burns]

AB,

No, they just show a life-changing belief that they thought they’d encountered “a profound and unexpected experience of God's love for them”. And as it seems to have passed you by, once again: the emotional content of the supposed encounter (love, hate, whatever) HAS NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH WHETHER OR NOT AN ENCOUNTER ACTUALLY HAPPENED. You’re just repeating the argumentum ad consequentiam fallacy here that you tried a few posts ago. 

If you’d lived in Egypt in the 25th century BC and believed you’d had a divine “encounter” you’d likely have been just as convinced that you’d met Osiris too. It’s a characteristic of such explanatory narratives that people reach for the gods most proximate in time and place to them for their cause. You’re no exception to that, though this doesn’t seem to give you even so much as pause. It really should though.   
   

Why on earth would anyone want to do that? You need to address your a priori question of why personal testimonies have any evidential value at all before you expect people to read them.

You are totally missing the point, Blue.
You can speculate and pontificate all you like from outside the faith, but until you encounter and accept the love of Jesus into your life you will never experience the complete and lasting happiness and fulfilment which faith can bring.
You need to let down the barriers, allow the love of Jesus come into your life - and I will look forward to hearing or reading your own testimony. 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

As I’ve corrected you on this several times now only for you to repeat the same mistake once more here, here’s a link to Wiki on the argmentum ad absurdum. Perhaps you could try to work it out for yourself this time:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

Appeal to ridicule or horse laugh fallacy is not reductio ad absurdum. I'm not sure who it is you are trying to mislead here.

[Gordon]

You are totally missing the point, Blue.
You can speculate and pontificate all you like from outside the faith, but until you encounter and accept the love of Jesus into your life you will never experience the complete and lasting happiness and fulfilment which faith can bring.
You need to let down the barriers, allow the love of Jesus come into your life - and I will look forward to hearing or reading your own testimony. 

That reads like a pretty good 'Courtier's Reply' to me.

[Alan Burns]

That reads like a pretty good 'Courtier's Reply' to me.

Your knowledge of fallacies appears to exceed your knowledge of God, Gordon.  I hope that one day you will look beyond your fallacy detector to see the real truth behind your existence.

[Gordon]

Your knowledge of fallacies appears to exceed your knowledge of God, Gordon.

True - because I think that 'knowledge of God' is a meaningless oxymoron.

I hope that one day you will look beyond your fallacy detector to see the real truth behind your existence.

I certainly hope that I will acquire new knowledge, but I think it highly unlikely that I will ever become a theist.