Searching for GOD...

[Dicky Underpants]

This is why you can be opposed to political Zionism (like Hamas) but not opposed to Jews in general (again like Hamas).

Hamas not opposed to Jews in general? Really?

Re: The Hamas Charter:

The 9000-word document blames Jews for the French and Communist revolutions, World War I and II, and for the Rotary Club and the United Nations, “to enable them to rule the world through them.”

“There is no war going on anywhere,” it reads, “without having their finger in it.”

The charter directs the killing of Jews, drawing on a hadith (prophetic saying): “The Day of Judgment will not come about until Muslims fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: ‘O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him.’”

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Hamas not opposed to Jews in general? Really?

Re: The Hamas Charter:

See the changes Hamas made in 2017 where they took out the antisemitic stuff. https://archive.ph/aKi35

JP linked to the changes to their policy towards the Jews as well in the Hamas Attacks Israel thread reply #18 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter

The link says:

The 2017 charter accepted for the first time the idea of a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders..... Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity.
Hamas rejects the persecution of any human being or the undermining of his or her rights on nationalist, religious or sectarian grounds. Hamas is of the view that the Jewish problem, anti-Semitism and the persecution of the Jews are phenomena fundamentally linked to European history and not to the history of the Arabs and the Muslims or to their heritage.[38][39]

[jeremyp]

See the changes Hamas made in 2017 where they took out the antisemitic stuff. https://archive.ph/aKi35

JP linked to the changes to their policy towards the Jews as well in the Hamas Attacks Israel thread reply #18 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter

The link says:

The 2017 charter accepted for the first time the idea of a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders..... Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity.
Hamas rejects the persecution of any human being or the undermining of his or her rights on nationalist, religious or sectarian grounds. Hamas is of the view that the Jewish problem, anti-Semitism and the persecution of the Jews are phenomena fundamentally linked to European history and not to the history of the Arabs and the Muslims or to their heritage.[38][39]

So they don't want any Jews in Palestine.

Nor, by the way, do they want gay people.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

So they don't want any Jews in Palestine.

Nor, by the way, do they want gay people.

I don't know anyone in Hamas to ask them so all I can do is tell you what Wikipedia says about Hamas' new document, which you already linked to on the Hamas-Israel thread, and which suggested a more nuanced political message advocating for a Palestinian state in the 1967 borders and solving the grievances relating to the Palestinian refugees and theft of their privately owned land by Israel.

Since 2017
The day after Khaled Mashal, Chairman of Hamas' Political Bureau, on 1 May 2017 had presented a new “political document” (often referred to as ‘new charter’), he was asked: "Will it replace Hamas’ old charter?" Mashal answered: This "new document has been in the making for four years (…) This document reflects our position for now (…) The old charter was a product of its era, 30 years ago. We live in a different world today".[38]

 Ahmed Yassin, the founder of Hamas, was quoted as saying that:

"We don't hate Jews and fight Jews because they are Jewish. They are a people of faith and we are a people of faith, and we love all people of faith. If my brother, from my own mother and father and my own faith takes my home and expels me from it, I will fight him. I will fight my cousin if he takes my home and expels me from it. So when a Jew takes my home and expels me from it, I will fight him. I don't fight other countries because I want to be at peace with them, I love all people and wish peace for them, even the Jews. The Jews lived with us all of our lives and we never assaulted them, and they held high positions in government and ministries. But if they take my home and make me a refugee like 4 million Palestinians in exile? Who has more right to this land? The Russian immigrant who left this land 2000 years ago or the one who left 40 years ago? We don't hate the Jews, we only ask for them to give us our rights."

If you want to discuss this further, I suggest doing it on the other thread rather than here.

[Gordon]

It's 2025 now, and in spite of the state of this wee planet, this 'God' thing still seems to be AWOL.

It might as well not exist for all the good it is doing.

[Nearly Sane]

It's 2025 now, and in spite of the state of this wee planet, this 'God' thing still seems to be AWOL.

It might as well not exist for all the good it is doing.

Are there any millenarian movements out there thinking that 2033 - 2 thousand years after the supposed death and resurrection of JC - will be when he comes back?

[Gordon]

Are there any millenarian movements out there thinking that 2033 - 2 thousand years after the supposed death and resurrection of JC - will be when he comes back?

I'd copyright that if I were you  I can imagine that '2000 years since JC didn't stay dead' T-shirts might well be in demand in 8 years time. Get your order in now!

No doubt there will be some God-enthusiasts somewhere who are looking for a new bandwagon to jump on.

[Nearly Sane]

I'd copyright that if I were you  I can imagine that '2000 years since JC didn't stay dead' T-shirts might well be in demand in 8 years time. Get your order in now!

No doubt there will be some God-enthusiasts somewhere who are looking for a new bandwagon to jump on.

Ta da!

https://www.raptureready.com/2020/09/29/end-of-the-age-a-plausible-timeline-by-pete-garcia-randy-nettles/

[Gordon]

Enjoyed reading that - it is a hoot: utterly deranged of course, but a hoot nonetheless. I especially loved the 'knowable prophecies' oxymoron.

We need to be careful this year because;

Arrival of an “eleventh” king, the Antichrist, onto the world scene in 2025. He is probably a great general from some European country and is expanding his territory into three of the king’s lands. They will have battles and wars for several years into the fall of 2026. He shall be different from the first 10 kings, and shall eventually subdue three of them, per Daniel 7:24.

I checked with Labrokes - there is no current market for the identity of the 'Antichrist', so it seems to me that some aren't taking this at all seriously!

[jeremyp]

I checked with Labrokes - there is no current market for the identity of the 'Antichrist', so it seems to me that some aren't taking this at all seriously!

I thought Nero was the Antichrist.

[Gordon]

I thought Nero was the Antichrist.

That explains it: all the bets we settled in CE68!

Maybe a pretender will come along - a Perkin Warbeck version of the Antichrist.

[Aruntraveller]

That explains it: all the bets we settled in CE68!

Maybe a pretender will come along - a Perkin Warbeck version of the Antichrist.

This musk be some mistake. The Antichrist is with us now.

[Alan Burns]

It's 2025 now, and in spite of the state of this wee planet, this 'God' thing still seems to be AWOL.

It might as well not exist for all the good it is doing.

Had to think long and hard how to respond to this, Gordon.
Where to begin?

First - God is not the God of gaps, He is the God of everything, the ultimate source of everything that exists or ever will exist.

I look upon the unfathomable complexity of biological life, and I see evidence of a creative force beyond all human understanding.
Every second of our existence is a gift from God, and we have been given the freedom to use this gift as we wish - a freedom which nature alone can never give.
The true nature of God is beyond our human comprehension, which is why He made Himself known to us in human form as Jesus Christ.
God has also given us the capacity to love and be loved - an attribute which goes far beyond anything which drops out from the unavoidable consequences of material reactions alone, and which was demonstrated by the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

And yes - God is evidenced in the midst of the devastation in LA as shown in these short witness stories:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3OntP1OOYo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ksl_YQR8ekk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGCYlU8C-Uc

So take off your blinkers, Gordon, and see the bigger picture of the wondrous reality which brought us into existence.

[Maeght]

You thought for a long time and that was the best you came up with!

Personal incredulity, unsupported statements of faith and cherry picking examples where churches weren't burnt down whilst ignoring the many churches that have been burnt down.

Think you need to take off your religious blinkers and see reality.

[Gordon]

Had to think long and hard how to respond to this, Gordon.
Where to begin?

First - God is not the God of gaps, He is the God of everything, the ultimate source of everything that exists or ever will exist.

I look upon the unfathomable complexity of biological life, and I see evidence of a creative force beyond all human understanding.
Every second of our existence is a gift from God, and we have been given the freedom to use this gift as we wish - a freedom which nature alone can never give.
The true nature of God is beyond our human comprehension, which is why He made Himself known to us in human form as Jesus Christ.
God has also given us the capacity to love and be loved - an attribute which goes far beyond anything which drops out from the unavoidable consequences of material reactions alone, and which was demonstrated by the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

And yes - God is evidenced in the midst of the devastation in LA as shown in these short witness stories:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3OntP1OOYo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ksl_YQR8ekk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGCYlU8C-Uc

So take off your blinkers, Gordon, and see the bigger picture of the wondrous reality which brought us into existence.

I see your personal incredulity is still with is in 2025, Alan.

Does it not make you feel sad that if this 'God' could protect the homes of members of its fan club, while it didn't protect the nearby homes of others, or stop the fire before it caused devastation: this isn't a good look for an 'omni-God'.

[Nearly Sane]

I see your personal incredulity is still with is in 2025, Alan.

Does it not make you feel sad that if this 'God' could protect the homes of members of its fan club, while it didn't protect the nearby homes of others, or stop the fire before it caused devastation: this isn't a good look for an 'omni-God'.

or indeed this


https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/british-born-disabled-former-child-star-died-needlessly-la-wildfires-mother/

[Dicky Underpants]

Had to think long and hard how to respond to this, Gordon.
Where to begin?

First - God is not the God of gaps, He is the God of everything, the ultimate source of everything that exists or ever will exist.

I look upon the unfathomable complexity of biological life, and I see evidence of a creative force beyond all human understanding.
Every second of our existence is a gift from God, and we have been given the freedom to use this gift as we wish - a freedom which nature alone can never give.
The true nature of God is beyond our human comprehension, which is why He made Himself known to us in human form as Jesus Christ.
God has also given us the capacity to love and be loved - an attribute which goes far beyond anything which drops out from the unavoidable consequences of material reactions alone, and which was demonstrated by the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

And yes - God is evidenced in the midst of the devastation in LA as shown in these short witness stories:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3OntP1OOYo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ksl_YQR8ekk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGCYlU8C-Uc

So take off your blinkers, Gordon, and see the bigger picture of the wondrous reality which brought us into existence.

Same old smug, blinkered crap, made even worse by your sanctimonious video clips. When Notre Dame burned, it was the wrong sort of church, was it?
I think I'd prefer Trump's brainless comments about it all being the fault of the firemen etc.
There is something about YOUR faith which is extremely unpleasant. Read the book of Job.

[Maeght]

This was clearly the wrong type of church too.

https://news.sky.com/video/la-fires-worshippers-mourn-loss-of-church-in-altadena-13287905

[Outrider]

Had to think long and hard how to respond to this, Gordon.

Unfortunately, despite that need, you don't appear to have thought very much at all.

First - God is not the God of gaps, He is the God of everything, the ultimate source of everything that exists or ever will exist.

The point of the 'God of the Gaps' phrasing isn't to be a depiction of god at all, it's a criticism of the ongoing increase in better explanations for physical phenomena than 'god did it', and the tendency of apologists to try to lever smaller and smaller gaps in our collective understanding into claims of divinity.

I look upon the unfathomable complexity of biological life, and I see evidence of a creative force beyond all human understanding.

Maybe if you spent less time predetermining it as 'unfathomable' and spent some time fathoming you'd see that it's not particularly good evidence for an intelligent creator.

Every second of our existence is a gift from God, and we have been given the freedom to use this gift as we wish - a freedom which nature alone can never give.

Every second of your existence might be considered to be a gift from your God, there are millions of people around the world whose lives are not that 'blessed'. As to your continued attempt to use the failed, unsubstantiated notion of 'free will' to prop up the failed, unsubstantiated notion of the Christian god... it's just nonsense all the way down, really.

The true nature of God is beyond our human comprehension, which is why He made Himself known to us in human form as Jesus Christ.

Which 'us' is this? A few dozen unreliable middle-easterners, none of whom realised the importance of it well enough to write the stuff down at the time? Seems like human nature is somehow beyond God's comprehension too, if that display is supposed to be somehow convincing.

God has also given us the capacity to love and be loved - an attribute which goes far beyond anything which drops out from the unavoidable consequences of material reactions alone, and which was demonstrated by the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

You keep asserting things are 'beyond material reactions alone', but failing to justify those assertions. You say that life is 'unfathomably complex', but when people say things like love can arise out of complexity you suddenly seem to think you have sufficient understanding to say 'it can't do that'. Is it unfathomable, or have you fathomed it?

And yes - God is evidenced in the midst of the devastation in LA as shown in these short witness stories:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3OntP1OOYo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ksl_YQR8ekk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGCYlU8C-Uc

Wow, look, random chance and anecdotes. That's going to convince... *checks notes* ... credulous numpties.

O.

[jeremyp]

And yes - God is evidenced in the midst of the devastation in LA a

Your god is the god of hell fire and he brings you....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=en1uwIzI3SE

[Alan Burns]

The point of the 'God of the Gaps' phrasing isn't to be a depiction of god at all, it's a criticism of the ongoing increase in better explanations for physical phenomena than 'god did it', and the tendency of apologists to try to lever smaller and smaller gaps in our collective understanding into claims of divinity.

understanding how things work does not impinge upon the need for a source responsible for making things that work.

Maybe if you spent less time predetermining it as 'unfathomable' and spent some time fathoming you'd see that it's not particularly good evidence for an intelligent creator.

I simply believe that there is a creator of intelligence.

Every second of your existence might be considered to be a gift from your God, there are millions of people around the world whose lives are not that 'blessed'. As to your continued attempt to use the failed, unsubstantiated notion of 'free will' to prop up the failed, unsubstantiated notion of the Christian god... it's just nonsense all the way down, really.

There is far more evidence for the reality of human free will than there is for the unavoidable consequences of material reactions being able to generate all human achievements.

Which 'us' is this? A few dozen unreliable middle-easterners, none of whom realised the importance of it well enough to write the stuff down at the time? Seems like human nature is somehow beyond God's comprehension too, if that display is supposed to be somehow convincing.

It is still convincing many people to this day - 2000 years after the events.

You keep asserting things are 'beyond material reactions alone', but failing to justify those assertions. You say that life is 'unfathomably complex', but when people say things like love can arise out of complexity you suddenly seem to think you have sufficient understanding to say 'it can't do that'. Is it unfathomable, or have you fathomed it?

Surely the onus is on you and others to show how the concept of love can possibly come about without the freedom to consciously control our own thought processes.

And I would like to use my God given free will to thank you for your detailed response to my post. 

[Maeght]

Surely the onus is on you and others to show how the concept of love can possibly come about without the freedom to consciously control our own thought processes.

The onus is on the person making a claim. If you are claiming love can only possibly come about if we have freedom to consciously control our own thought processes the onus is on you to provide evidence that shows that to be true.

[Gordon]

understanding how things work does not impinge upon the need for a source responsible for making things that work.

Begging the question.

I simply believe that there is a creator of intelligence.

Blind faith.

There is far more evidence for the reality of human free will than there is for the unavoidable consequences of material reactions being able to generate all human achievements.

Incredulity and ad consequentiam

It is still convincing many people to this day - 2000 years after the events.

ad populum

Surely the onus is on you and others to show how the concept of love can possibly come about without the freedom to consciously control our own thought processes.

More incredulity and ad consequentiam, and the burden of proof here is yours.

And I would like to use my God given free will to thank you for your detailed response to my post. 

Next time try your biology!

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

understanding how things work does not impinge upon the need for a source responsible for making things that work.

A supposed “need” you’ve never been able to justify with sounds reasons.

I simply believe that there is a creator of intelligence.

And I believe that leprechauns are fond of banana pancakes. Your beliefs are a matter for you - if you want anyone else to take them seriously though, you need to justify them with the sound arguments you claim to have but never provide. Funny that. 

There is far more evidence for the reality of human free will than there is for the unavoidable consequences of material reactions being able to generate all human achievements.

And yet you’ve never managed to produce even one scrap of this supposed evidence. Rather than just claim its existence, why not finally tell us what it is instead without collapsing immediately into one or several of the various fallacies you’ve had detonated here countless times already?

It is still convincing many people to this day - 2000 years after the events.

Lots of supposed events are still convincing many people long after their supposed occurrence. Are they all true therefore, or just the ones that happen to relate to your faith?
 

Surely the onus is on you and others to show how the concept of love can possibly come about without the freedom to consciously control our own thought processes.

No, it’s your claim that it’s impossible without your (logically impossible) version of “free” will, so it’s your job to justify your claim.

And I would like to use my God given free will to thank you for your detailed response to my post.

And I would like to use my leprechaun-given talent to dance under the full moon tonight. So what though? 

[Alan Burns]

The onus is on the person making a claim. If you are claiming love can only possibly come about if we have freedom to consciously control our own thought processes the onus is on you to provide evidence that shows that to be true.

So I take it that you believe "love" is just the inevitable consequence arising from a series of material reactions entirely driven by nothing else but the laws of physics and chemistry over which we can have no control.

I rest my case.