Author Topic: Maybe YOU should take the test.... keep the faith!  (Read 40931 times)

King Oberon

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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Maybe YOU should take the test.... keep the faith!
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2015, 03:27:10 PM »
http://godisimaginary.com/video10.htm
Hi King took a look at the site. The outfit seem very literalist at first sight. Did it bring about an epiphany in you or does it just broadly agree with what you thought already?

I think we've been through most of the arguments before:
It's an American site which deals with an American interpretation of Christianity burdened with it's own characature of Christianity.

It invited me to believe an interpretation of terms that I couldn't
quite subscribe to.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2015, 03:43:13 PM by Vlad Hominem »

Hope

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Re: Maybe YOU should take the test.... keep the faith!
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2015, 05:20:07 PM »
The first question alone begs the question of where the idea for and ability to create prosthetic limbs comes from.  Is it any more logical to believe that it was a random idea from a randomised brain than to believe that it was an idea inspired by a loving God?

The concomitant comment - that 'God completely ignores amputees when they pray for miracles' - seems to ignore the fact that we have prosthetics.  Why I as a Christian should have to create an 'excuse' for God - as the speaker calls it, seems illogical.  So, question 1 considered and deemed undefinitive.

Question 2 - Starvation.  It is generally agreed that the world produces enough food to feed every person currently alive.  That may well not be at the level of consumption that we have here in the West - but probably also sets aside the level of waste that we have here in the West.

What are the causes of starvation/deprivation of this sort?  Greed, corruption, natural disaster - ad that's just three.

So, within the space of two 'questions that every intelligent Christian must answer', the speaker posits explanations that are so far from the way that most Christians think as to make them somewhat pointless.

Question 3:  Why does God demand the death of so many innocent people?  Firstly, what does the speaker mean by 'innocent'?  We may no longer sentence people who do wrong to death, but we still punish them - and in each example that the speaker gives the death penalty is for breaking the law.  That punishment may extent to incarceration or may be limited to the grounding of an individual.  In the context of a nomadic people - as the Jews were when such laws were set down, where would they have kept a wrong-doer?  They wouldn't have had a place to incarcerate them and if the wrong-doing was such that it damaged the fabric of society, what else could they do?  Incidentally, each of the 4 passages quoted - Exodus 35:2, Leviticus 20:13, Deuteronomy 21:18-21 and  22:13-21 are taken out of context as far as the comments associated with them are concerned.

Each of the issues dealt with in these passages are wilful acts of disobedience that wouldm lead to damage of the society - the Exodus passage points to behaviour that would break the bonds of a society that was based on the worship of a deity that had saved them from slavery; the Leviticus passage comes in the middle of a longer passage that lists a number of sexual behaviours which could easily lead to the unravelling of that same society; the passage about the 'disobedient son' is clearly dealing with a child who has been persistently and wilfully disobedient and whose parents have tried on several occasions to discipline them and get them to toe the lines that society set out, whilst the passage about killing girls who are not virgins when they marry also comes in the middle of a longer passage about how to deal with sexual immorality.  In fact the first example in the 'list' is how a man who accuses his wife of having not been a virgin - and accuses her wrongly, should be treated.  Further on in the list, there is an example where a man who is already betrothed 'abducts' a young woman and rapes here.  That man has to die; and nothing should be done to the girl as she is innocent of anything.

In fact, all the passages so conveniently picked so as to give a good sound-bite are actually parts of far more balanced passages.


Whilst I hadn't seen this particular clip before, I have seen several very similar ones - all of which raise the same concerns as to selective reading, twisting and misrepresentation of what is actually said and applying 20th century understandings (and, in some cases, lacks of understandings) to events that took place anything up to 3,500 years ago.


This smacks, in my mind, to a lack of intelligent argumentation, be that intentional or otherwise.
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floo

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Re: Maybe YOU should take the test.... keep the faith!
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2015, 05:21:45 PM »
Excuses, excuses for the evil behaviour of the deity! :o

Ricky Spanish

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Re: Maybe YOU should take the test.... keep the faith!
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2015, 05:28:21 PM »
The deity that you don't believe exists.

How can starvation be caused by the evil behaviour of a non-existent deity?
UNDERSTAND - I MAKE OPINIONS. IF YOUR ARGUMENTS MAKE ME QUESTION MY OPINION THEN I WILL CONSIDER THEM.

floo

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Re: Maybe YOU should take the test.... keep the faith!
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2015, 05:34:48 PM »
The deity that you don't believe exists.

How can starvation be caused by the evil behaviour of a non-existent deity?

I am talking to people who really believe the deity exists, even if I don't, and make excuses for its nasty behaviour!

Ricky Spanish

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Re: Maybe YOU should take the test.... keep the faith!
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2015, 05:47:51 PM »
They don't believe its behaviour to be nasty though.

You do, but you also don't believe it exists.
UNDERSTAND - I MAKE OPINIONS. IF YOUR ARGUMENTS MAKE ME QUESTION MY OPINION THEN I WILL CONSIDER THEM.

Shaker

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Re: Maybe YOU should take the test.... keep the faith!
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2015, 05:48:16 PM »
The deity that you don't believe exists.

How can starvation be caused by the evil behaviour of a non-existent deity?

I am talking to people who really believe the deity exists, even if I don't, and make excuses for its nasty behaviour!

Exactly. Pitiful efforts by theists at trying to absolve their favoured brand of deity of responsibility for (a) evil actions or (b) inaction in the face of evil are exercises in the most woeful special pleading.

I don't think they quite realise what they do when they wheel out this tired old guff - in one breath they talk of a personal, personalistic, interested deity capable of magicking a universe out of nothingness, and in the next their god isn't capable of running a whelk stall. A god that can speak a cosmos out of nothingness would not break sweat either at the creation of prosthetic limbs for amputees or, even better still, the eradication of situations that call for prosthetic limbs in the first instance. A god with powers supposedly to conjure a universe ex nihilo and to perform miracles (conveniently tucked away in old documents from obscure parts of the ancient world in credulous and superstitious times) suddenly sees its powers evaporate when sceptics start asking pointed questions as to why those same powers are not in evidence in significantly more mundane matters today. The supposed responses to such arguments are the most desperate of barrel-scraping pseudo-rationalisations of the irrational. 
« Last Edit: May 29, 2015, 06:37:40 PM by Shaker »
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Shaker

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Re: Maybe YOU should take the test.... keep the faith!
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2015, 05:49:38 PM »
They don't believe its behaviour to be nasty though.
Because the theistic mindset is shot through with a set of filters which screen out anything which suggests it.

Quote
You do, but you also don't believe it exists.
Floo has quite clearly explained that she's referring to people who do believe in a god and the inevitable double standards that this entails.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Maybe YOU should take the test.... keep the faith!
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2015, 07:02:24 PM »
They don't believe its behaviour to be nasty though.
Because the theistic mindset is shot through with a set of filters which screen out anything which suggests it.

That has the ring of bollocks to it Shakes. I think in taking the Jewish canon along with it. Christianity was saying here is our spiritual history and library of ideas. Here it is, warts and all.

Modernist secular antitheism on the other hand is sentimental old bollocks. Which will whitewash it's own bleak view at the drop of a hat.

Shaker

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Re: Maybe YOU should take the test.... keep the faith!
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2015, 07:05:59 PM »
Well, there's nothing like a well-thought-out, well-constructed sound argument Vlad ... and that was nothing like one.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Maybe YOU should take the test.... keep the faith!
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2015, 09:18:20 PM »
The deity that you don't believe exists.

How can starvation be caused by the evil behaviour of a non-existent deity?

I am talking to people who really believe the deity exists, even if I don't, and make excuses for its nasty behaviour!

I take hours attempting to disabuse people of this attitude.  I do not excuse the behaviour of God in the OT, quite the contrary.  I am not the only one.  But of course, you never acknowledge such views.  You are a bit selective in your condemnation:  or should I say, biased!
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floo

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Re: Maybe YOU should take the test.... keep the faith!
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2015, 03:53:42 PM »
If you believe that garbage to be true, you will believe anything! :o

Shaker

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Re: Maybe YOU should take the test.... keep the faith!
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2015, 04:14:13 PM »
Given the potentially world-changing magnitude of what's being claimed I wouldn't say that beforeitsnews.com and YouTube strike me as the last word in reliable sources of information.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2015, 06:22:52 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Hope

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Re: Maybe YOU should take the test.... keep the faith!
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2015, 06:21:04 PM »
I am talking to people who really believe the deity exists, even if I don't, and make excuses for its nasty behaviour!
You have yet again thrown in this 'nasty behaviour' concept, floo, without actually explaining how the events you are describing relate to God's behaviour.  Are you suggesting that, by creating the world on which you and I live, as a dynamic system which renews itself - and a process that sometimes results in humans suffering is a bad thing?  I notice that you don't seem to have any qualms about the suffering that non-human life suffers alongside us when such things happen.  Does human life have some special value in your view?
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Shaker

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Re: Maybe YOU should take the test.... keep the faith!
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2015, 06:58:07 PM »
Are you suggesting that, by creating the world on which you and I live, as a dynamic system which renews itself - and a process that sometimes results in humans suffering is a bad thing?

Would a traditional omnimax god (a) want to create a "dynamic system which renews itself" but without causing suffering, (b) know how to create such a system without causing suffering and (c) actually be able to create such a system without causing suffering?
« Last Edit: May 31, 2015, 07:44:55 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Hope

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Re: Maybe YOU should take the test.... keep the faith!
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2015, 08:04:50 PM »
Would a traditional omnimax god (a) want to create a "dynamic system which renews itself" but without causing suffering, (b) know how to create such a system without causing suffering and (c) actually be able to create such a system without causing suffering?
I like the urban jargon, Shaker.

I think that the answer to the last question - since that is the nub of the other two anyway - is 'Yes, he would have been able to'.  However, that would have necessitated robotic creations that would unquestioningly have obeyed his instructions - but that that wasn't what he wanted.  He wanted humans who chose to have a relationship with their creator, not be forced into it by default..
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Shaker

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Re: Maybe YOU should take the test.... keep the faith!
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2015, 08:13:14 PM »
I like the urban jargon, Shaker.

What's the "urban jargon"?

Quote
I think that the answer to the last question - since that is the nub of the other two anyway - is 'Yes, he would have been able to'. However, that would have necessitated robotic creations that would unquestioningly have obeyed his instructions - but that that wasn't what he wanted.  He wanted humans who chose to have a relationship with their creator, not be forced into it by default..

Oh, humungous festering balls. We're not talking about the creatures within the system but the system itself, so there's no reason for any of the usual twaddle about "robots." You've neatly slipped from the "system" - I assume, given the lack of clear definition, you mean the way that the natural world on this planet operates: weather systems; plate tectonics, etc. - to creatures living in or on that system. Make up your mind which you mean. An omnimax god would want, would know, would be able to create a planet Earth which is "dynamic" but without causing suffering to sentient creatures. Yes or no? You believe in such a deity yet such a state of affairs patently does not exist, therefore it falls to you to explain why not.

Your post is an all-too-familiar exercise in somebody claiming to know the mind and the intentions of the Creator of All That Is ("that would have necessitated robotic creations that would unquestioningly have obeyed his instructions - but that that wasn't what he wanted. He wanted humans who chose to have a relationship with their creator ..."). Of course I don't believe in such a thing as that would obviously be silly and I'm not silly, but you do claim to. The highlighted passage not even merely implies but explicitly states that you know what such an entity wanted/wants.

As my hero, the late and phenomenally great Hitch once observed, I've been called arrogant in my time and hope to be so labelled again, but claiming to be privy to the thoughts, wishes, desires, aversions and intentions of the supposed Creator is beyond even my conceit.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2015, 08:24:06 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Maybe YOU should take the test.... keep the faith!
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2015, 08:23:26 PM »
I like the urban jargon, Shaker.

What's the "urban jargon"?

Quote
I think that the answer to the last question - since that is the nub of the other two anyway - is 'Yes, he would have been able to'. However, that would have necessitated robotic creations that would unquestioningly have obeyed his instructions - but that that wasn't what he wanted.  He wanted humans who chose to have a relationship with their creator, not be forced into it by default..

Oh, humungous festering balls. We're not talking about the creatures within the system but the system itself, so there's no reason for any of the usual twaddle about "robots." You've neatly slipped from the "system" - I assume, given the lack of clear definition, you mean the way that the natural world on this planet operates: weather systems; plate tectonics, etc. - to creatures living in or on that system. Make up your mind which you mean. An omnimax god would want, would know, would be able to create a planet Earth which is "dynamic" but without causing suffering to sentient creatures. Yes or no?

Your post is an all-too-familiar exercise in somebody claiming to know the mind and the intentions of the Creator of All That Is ("that would have necessitated robotic creations that would unquestioningly have obeyed his instructions - but that that wasn't what he wanted"). I don't believe in such a thing as that would be silly and I'm not silly, but you do claim to. The highlighted passage not even merely implies but explicitly states that you know what such an entity wanted/wants.

As my hero, the late and phenomenally great Hitch once observed, I've been called arrogant in my time and hope to be so labelled again, but claiming to be privy to the thoughts, wishes, desires, aversions and intentions of the supposed Creator is beyond even my conceit.

You seem to think that you are privy to the thoughts of Quakers, and teachers.  So maybe your conceit is even more encompassing than you realised!
BA.

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It is my commandment that you love one another."

Shaker

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Re: Maybe YOU should take the test.... keep the faith!
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2015, 08:26:39 PM »
You seem to think that you are privy to the thoughts of Quakers, and teachers.  So maybe your conceit is even more encompassing than you realised!

Privy? No. That would imply some sort of arcane, spooky, esoteric gnosis, where nothing is stated clearly and explicitly from one human being to another or others but is arrived at by some sort of supernatural means. By contrast I'm capable of reading and comprehending what Quakers actually say, do and write for themselves.

I'm capable of using a computer such that I can search for information on the World Wide Web. I'm capable of cracking open a book and reading it. If - which is what you're implying - only valid and valuable knowledge comes entirely and purely from direct personal acquaintance, how impoverished must your knowledge of the universe be.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2015, 08:33:53 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Maybe YOU should take the test.... keep the faith!
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2015, 08:39:11 PM »
You seem to think that you are privy to the thoughts of Quakers, and teachers.  So maybe your conceit is even more encompassing than you realised!

Privy? No. That would imply some sort of arcane, spooky, esoteric gnosis, where nothing is stated clearly and explicitly from one human being to another or others but is arrived at by some sort of supernatural means. By contrast I'm capable of reading and comprehending what Quakers actually say, do and write for themselves.

The Salvation Army, along with other Christian Denominations, make it their daily work to help the poorest and most needy in society, the homeless, etc.  Since there are well over one and a half million Salvationists in the UK, I reckon their accumulated acts of giving and helping vastly outweigh anything you might claim for Quakers(!), or the Quakers might claim for themselves.  I expect, though, that you would deny this, since you probably know many, many, many of them and can prove what I say is not so.
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Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Shaker

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Re: Maybe YOU should take the test.... keep the faith!
« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2015, 08:43:30 PM »
The Salvation Army, along with other Christian Denominations, make it their daily work to help the poorest and most needy in society, the homeless, etc.  Since there are well over one and a half million Salvationists in the UK, I reckon their accumulated acts of giving and helping vastly outweigh anything you might claim for Quakers(!), or the Quakers might claim for themselves.
I wasn't aware that Quakers tended to "claim" anything - as far as I'm aware they come across as a very quiet, humble bunch to whom the notion of "claiming" good deeds is anathema. In fact they would probably say, as I had cause to say just yesterday, that making great show, ostentatious display of doing good would fall foul of Matthew 6:2-4.



Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Maybe YOU should take the test.... keep the faith!
« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2015, 08:48:11 PM »
The Salvation Army, along with other Christian Denominations, make it their daily work to help the poorest and most needy in society, the homeless, etc.  Since there are well over one and a half million Salvationists in the UK, I reckon their accumulated acts of giving and helping vastly outweigh anything you might claim for Quakers(!), or the Quakers might claim for themselves.
I wasn't aware that Quakers tended to "claim" anything - as far as I'm aware they come across as a very quiet, humble bunch to whom the notion of "claiming" good deeds is anathema. In fact they would probably say, as I had cause to say just yesterday, that making great show, ostentatious display of doing good would fall foul of Matthew 6:2-4.

How do you know what they might contribute to society, then, if they say nothing about it.  Perhaps they do nothing much!  How do you know they are humble?  They are human, and so susceptible the failings of us all:  "Vanity, vanity, all is vanity!"
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Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Shaker

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Re: Maybe YOU should take the test.... keep the faith!
« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2015, 08:58:09 PM »
How do you know what they might contribute to society, then, if they say nothing about it. Perhaps they do nothing much!  How do you know they are humble?

Quaker philanthropists, Quaker humanitarians, Quaker humanists (in the broadest sense, i.e. not necessarily and intrinsically identified with strictly secular non-religious humanists) tend on the whole not to draw attention to themselves. Their Quakerism or Quakerdom (so to speak) tends to have attention drawn to it by others, not themselves.

Quote
They are human, and so susceptible the failings of us all:  "Vanity, vanity, all is vanity!"
Isn't that a direct quotation from the Old Testament which you regularly claim to reject, Bashers? Ecclesiastes, if I recall rightly.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.