Author Topic: Objective morality is independent of opinion....or is it?  (Read 106241 times)

Sebastian Toe

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Objective morality is independent of opinion....or is it?
« on: June 01, 2015, 11:43:44 PM »
Indulging Alien's logic for now from the other thread ie
if we have two people who think that moral value 'x' (eg TACTDJFF) is wrong and always will be. Then logically, both must agree that objective morality exists for a minimum of that instance.
That in itself does not provide a process to establish OM and to be fair to Alien I don't think he has claimed that there.


Now that is out of the way,
   could anyone who believes that OM exists, explain what method there is for establishing that or any other moral value?

I would expect (or at least hope  :-\ ) to see a process which is independent of opinion.

edit, Happy to make modifications to the question if it is not clear enough.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2015, 11:45:50 PM by Sebastian Toe »
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BeRational

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Re: Objective morality is independent of opinion....or is it?
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2015, 11:56:22 PM »
I think we are in for a long wait.

We have already had 9 months of evasion, obfuscation, and assertion masquerading as a method.

I predicted more of the same.

I hope to be wrong.
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horsethorn

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Re: Objective morality is independent of opinion....or is it?
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2015, 12:14:11 AM »
Well, agreeing that an example of OM exists is still based on opinion, and so is self-refuting ;)

I think that it's very unlikely that anyone will present a method, for the simple reason that one doesn't exist.

ht
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wigginhall

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Re: Objective morality is independent of opinion....or is it?
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2015, 12:17:05 AM »
Well, agreeing that an example of OM exists is still based on opinion, and so is self-refuting ;)

I think that it's very unlikely that anyone will present a method, for the simple reason that one doesn't exist.

ht

I don't think one can exist.  The only method offered, is assertion.  OM exists because I say so.   What a disgusting thread that was.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 12:18:52 AM by wigginhall »
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Sebastian Toe

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Re: Objective morality is independent of opinion....or is it?
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2015, 12:19:16 AM »
Well, agreeing that an example of OM exists is still based on opinion, and so is self-refuting ;)
I think that a small indulgence is needed in order to get to the next step.

I think that it's very unlikely that anyone will present a method, for the simple reason that one doesn't exist.

I'm interested in the thought process involved. I might learn something!
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Alien

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Re: Objective morality is independent of opinion....or is it?
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2015, 07:44:31 AM »
Indulging Alien's logic for now from the other thread ie
if we have two people who think that moral value 'x' (eg TACTDJFF) is wrong and always will be. Then logically, both must agree that objective morality exists for a minimum of that instance.
That in itself does not provide a process to establish OM and to be fair to Alien I don't think he has claimed that there.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "a minimum of that instance", but if I do then yes that is what I have claimed. Forgive me for not expanding on this bit, but see below.
Quote
Now that is out of the way,
   could anyone who believes that OM exists, explain what method there is for establishing that or any other moral value?

I would expect (or at least hope  :-\ ) to see a process which is independent of opinion.

edit, Happy to make modifications to the question if it is not clear enough.
I will write a post which is as comprehensive as I can, endeavouring to explain things in a way which people here can understand. It won't get done this week though.
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BeRational

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Re: Objective morality is independent of opinion....or is it?
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2015, 08:11:40 AM »
It might be best to write something brief as an overview simply to save you time.

It could be that you mention something early that you then build on, that is only to be refuted and collapse the rest of your reasoning.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 08:59:41 AM by BeRational »
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Sebastian Toe

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Re: Objective morality is independent of opinion....or is it?
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2015, 08:59:10 AM »
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "a minimum of that instance",.

..there might be no other 'morality' scenario upon which the two people agree.
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Sebastian Toe

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Re: Objective morality is independent of opinion....or is it?
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2015, 09:00:48 AM »
I will write a post which is as comprehensive as I can, endeavouring to explain things in a way which people here can understand. It won't get done this week though.
No worries, thanks.

Any other OMers feel free to jump in though, any-time.
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Alien

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Re: Objective morality is independent of opinion....or is it?
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2015, 09:01:06 AM »
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "a minimum of that instance",.

..there might be no other 'morality' scenario upon which the two people agree.
Ta.
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jakswan

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Re: Objective morality is independent of opinion....or is it?
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2015, 09:17:53 AM »
I will write a post which is as comprehensive as I can, endeavouring to explain things in a way which people here can understand. It won't get done this week though.

I think most of us get the old:-

Quote
if we have two people who think that moral value 'x' (eg TACTDJFF) is wrong and always will be. Then logically, both must agree that objective morality exists for a minimum of that instance.

I think we've buried the attempted semantic trickery in that statement because what ole Al will do is post an essay on that before bouncing back to the old argument, objective moral values exist therefore god init.

So the following doesn't fly:-

I think action X is wrong independent of anyone else's opinion, but not my own opinion.
I think action X was wrong in the past.
I think action X will be wrong in the future.
When I'm not alive these opinions will not exist, i.e. subjective.

Can we stick to action X rather than TACTDJFF because it will prevent Al attempting to lay semantic traps for people.
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Leonard James

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Re: Objective morality is independent of opinion....or is it?
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2015, 09:25:55 AM »
Even if every living person agreed that an action was moral or immoral, that doesn't mean there is an objective morality floating about somewhere.

BeRational

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Re: Objective morality is independent of opinion....or is it?
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2015, 09:28:38 AM »
I will write a post which is as comprehensive as I can, endeavouring to explain things in a way which people here can understand. It won't get done this week though.

I think most of us get the old:-

Quote
if we have two people who think that moral value 'x' (eg TACTDJFF) is wrong and always will be. Then logically, both must agree that objective morality exists for a minimum of that instance.

I think we've buried the attempted semantic trickery in that statement because what ole Al will do is post an essay on that before bouncing back to the old argument, objective moral values exist therefore god init.

So the following doesn't fly:-

I think action X is wrong independent of anyone else's opinion, but not my own opinion.
I think action X was wrong in the past.
I think action X will be wrong in the future.
When I'm not alive these opinions will not exist, i.e. subjective.

Can we stick to action X rather than TACTDJFF because it will prevent Al attempting to lay semantic traps for people.

Agreed.

These are just Alien own deeply fervently held subjective opinions.
We get that.

In what way are they objective though, is what he needs to demonstrate.
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Spud

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Re: Objective morality is independent of opinion....or is it?
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2015, 09:32:23 AM »
The reason given by God for not murdering someone is, that person is made in God's image (Genesis 9:6). I thought I'd throw that in.

BeRational

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Re: Objective morality is independent of opinion....or is it?
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2015, 09:34:46 AM »
The reason given by God for not murdering someone is, that person is made in God's image (Genesis 9:6). I thought I'd throw that in.

Thanks, but pointless, atheists do not accept the existence of god.
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Hope

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Re: Objective morality is independent of opinion....or is it?
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2015, 09:40:33 AM »
These are just Alien own deeply fervently held subjective opinions.
We get that.
In fact, does objective thinking really exist?  Whatever one thinks will necessarily be coloured by one's own experiences, hopes, upbringing, etc. .  Subjectivity will always have a part to play - whatever the field of study.
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BeRational

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Re: Objective morality is independent of opinion....or is it?
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2015, 09:47:24 AM »
These are just Alien own deeply fervently held subjective opinions.
We get that.
In fact, does objective thinking really exist?  Whatever one thinks will necessarily be coloured by one's own experiences, hopes, upbringing, etc. .  Subjectivity will always have a part to play - whatever the field of study.

The speed of light is not subjective.

We can all if we so desire and have the knowledge can measure it and we will ALL get the same objective answer.

This is the whole point. Morality is not like this, it is always subjective, there is no objective moral answer out there.

If there was, you would be able to tell me if same sex marriage is objectively right or wrong, and your opinion on the matter would not come into it.

Can you do that?
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horsethorn

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Re: Objective morality is independent of opinion....or is it?
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2015, 10:08:29 AM »
The reason given by God for not murdering someone is, that person is made in God's image (Genesis 9:6). I thought I'd throw that in.

So why does the bible record him as murdering so many people? ???

ht
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Dryghtons Toe

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Re: Objective morality is independent of opinion....or is it?
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2015, 01:43:46 PM »
A point to bear in mind..

Part of the reason it is not a simple answer as to how we determine the content of OM is because the content will depend on the theory of how it is that morality is objective that we are advocating – Moral realism isn’t a single position it’s a plurality of positions in exactly the same way as anti-realism is. So for example if I said to an anti-realist ‘how do we make decide what is right or wrong?’ an individual subjectivist, a societal relativist, a basic principle relativist, etc would all give different answers…

So too with moral realism. If someone thought for example that moral truth was grounded in a form of traditional divine command theory they would say objective morality is based on Gods commands which has presumably been revealed to us in specific definite ways if you hold to a literalist interpretation of Christianity or Islam or whatever.

If you thought that moral realism was grounded in our implicit assumptions within a shared human sensibility then your method would not be to read off truth but rather to draw out what lies behind moral disagreement and then (slowly) tease out how we would react if things were slightly different in order to edge towards consensus.

If you thought that moral truth was grounded in certain core virtues that underpin rational discourse and therefore need to be implicitly embraced by anyone who accepts the practice of ethics then you would have to articulate why these virtues were implicit in rational discourse and draw out how they should be applied in a moral situation.

Etc. Etc. for the record my own view is none of the above although all of the above have been advocated by various types of moral realists. Importantly though agreement on a method doesn’t wipe out moral disagreement – People who agree on virtues that underpin rational discourse for example might disagree for a range of reasons while accepting the same methodology, e.g.

-   Disagree on facts, e.g. on extent of suffering caused to animals in modern farming or impact fracking will have on peoples wellbeing balanced against its benefits,..
-   Disagree due to interest and emotions/defence of vested positions which distort weight place on arguments beyond what rationally entails
-   People talking past one another through different understandings of issue.

All of these are causes of disagreement that mesh together in complex ways, particularly in relation to human societies were moral issues are usually located, that can lead to disagreement in morality even if it was a matter of moral facts – indeed all of these lead to disagreements in science and social science about things that are undisputedly factual too.

So yes moral realists can articulate a way that we progress towards moral truth, depending on the version of moral realism they advocate but this doesn’t make it formulaic or able to simply arrive at undisputed conclusions in most cases.

Regards

DT
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 07:14:53 PM by Dryghtons Toe »

Spud

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Re: Objective morality is independent of opinion....or is it?
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2015, 06:30:02 PM »
The reason given by God for not murdering someone is, that person is made in God's image (Genesis 9:6). I thought I'd throw that in.

So why does the bible record him as murdering so many people? ???

ht

Where does it record that, please?

Gordon

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Re: Objective morality is independent of opinion....or is it?
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2015, 06:36:51 PM »
The reason given by God for not murdering someone is, that person is made in God's image (Genesis 9:6). I thought I'd throw that in.

So why does the bible record him as murdering so many people? ???

ht

Where does it record that, please?

Flood/Noah - ring any bells?

horsethorn

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Re: Objective morality is independent of opinion....or is it?
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2015, 09:20:45 PM »
The reason given by God for not murdering someone is, that person is made in God's image (Genesis 9:6). I thought I'd throw that in.

So why does the bible record him as murdering so many people? ???

ht

Where does it record that, please?

Flood/Noah - ring any bells?

You do know he's going to go for the 'god can't murder' drivel, don't you? He'll probably try to argue that 'god owns our SOUL and can EAT it if he wants to' or some such nonsense, which will completely contradict the claims about his god being 'good'.

ht
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Objective morality is independent of opinion....or is it?
« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2015, 09:29:35 PM »
Well, agreeing that an example of OM exists is still based on opinion, and so is self-refuting ;)

I think that it's very unlikely that anyone will present a method, for the simple reason that one doesn't exist.

ht

I don't think one can exist.  The only method offered, is assertion.  OM exists because I say so.   What a disgusting thread that was.
1) Not at all: Firstly there is the ''with bother with morality if it's purely subjective'' argument.
2) There is the argument from ''moral imperfection''

horsethorn

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Re: Objective morality is independent of opinion....or is it?
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2015, 10:36:35 PM »
Well, agreeing that an example of OM exists is still based on opinion, and so is self-refuting ;)

I think that it's very unlikely that anyone will present a method, for the simple reason that one doesn't exist.

ht

I don't think one can exist.  The only method offered, is assertion.  OM exists because I say so.   What a disgusting thread that was.
1) Not at all: Firstly there is the ''with bother with morality if it's purely subjective'' argument.
2) There is the argument from ''moral imperfection''

I think you'll find that both of those are figments of your imagination, Vlad.

ht
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jakswan

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Re: Objective morality is independent of opinion....or is it?
« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2015, 11:31:42 PM »
I think this topic is ripe for a formal two contributor debate. I don't want to accuse Al of obfuscation but the most pertinent points have been made on this topic by HT and its very easy for HT's awesome contributions to get drowned out.

All those in favour say aye! :)
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