Author Topic: Objective morality is independent of opinion....or is it?  (Read 106436 times)

Leonard James

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Re: Objective morality is independent of opinion....or is it?
« Reply #450 on: July 31, 2015, 07:21:41 PM »

So you keep asserting Leonard but if you can’t follow the argument then I suppose you wouldn’t be able to say that would you. Anyhow I’m more interested in you explaining the contradiction in your responses here..

To repeat:

The situation we are discussing is that someone is bully a gay child to the point of suicide and that the person doing it thinks its ok (he may hate people and think its a good thing)

You said (1) that what makes something right are our opinions about it or personal responses to it

I don't believe I have ever said such a thing, but if I have I was having a senior moment. I have always tried to say quite the opposite. If I believe something is right, that is just my opinion ... it doesn't make it right.

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And (2) that bullying the child is always wrong no matter what the person doing it thinks about it.

Once again I have always said that that is my opinion, but once again that doesn't mean I am right, it is simply my belief.

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(1) and (2) are contradictions because if (1) is correct and if the person doing it thinks its right, then it IS right for him as it's his opinion that makes it right. You might disprove of what he is doing but you can't say he is wrong as he has met the only criteria you have that makes an action right..namely his personal opinions about it. All you have left is personal disapproval. Yet you have also been very clear that you think, like most people, than saying “its wrong to bully a child” means more than just “I disapprove of it.”

Yes, of course, I believe it is wrong, but once again that is just my opinion, which doesn't make it corect.

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Putting it simply Leonard you need to either reject (1) or reject (2). Which is it?

As you can see, I reject both. Personal opinions about right and wrong are just that, they can never be shown to be anything more than subjective personal opinion.

Dryghtons Toe

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Re: Objective morality is independent of opinion....or is it?
« Reply #451 on: August 01, 2015, 10:35:05 AM »

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The situation we are discussing is that someone is bully a gay child to the point of suicide and that the person doing it thinks its ok (he may hate people and think its a good thing)

You said (1) that what makes something right are our opinions about it or personal responses to it

I don't believe I have ever said such a thing, but if I have I was having a senior moment. I have always tried to say quite the opposite. If I believe something is right, that is just my opinion ... it doesn't make it right.

!?!?!?!?Are you having a senior moment now Leonard? If you are saying that 'bullying children is wrong is just your opinion' then you ARE saying that the only thing that makes it wrong IS your opinion - which is exactly what I said in (1)!!! If you are not saying this then the word 'wrong' has no meaning at all - its either based on your opinions or based on facts. If its just based on your opinions then the wrongness is just something that relies on personal opinion for its wrongness. That is exactly what (1) means. and (1) contradicts "(2) that bullying the child is always wrong no matter what the person doing it thinks about it." It contradicts 2 because in the situation we are discussing the person doing the bullying doesn't think it is wrong. For you to say that it is wrong for HIM to do it begs the question 'what does wrong mean?' The answer is either that he's making a mistake or simply that you disapprove of it. If its the former you need an external standard, but if its the latter you are contradicting yourself as you have clearly said that it means more than just that you disapprove of it.

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Yes, of course, I believe it is wrong, but once again that is just my opinion, which doesn't make it corect.
And thats sort of the point Leonard. Look to make it simple let me illustrate with 2 of my opinions.

Opinion 1: DT thinks that islamic terrorists were responsible for the 9/11 attacks.

Opinion 2: DT thinks that listening to New Model Army is more enjoyable than listening to any other music.

Both of these are my opinions, but opinion 1 is either right or wrong depending on facts about the event my opinion is about. It is made right (or wrong) by facts entirely independent of my opinion. If someone else believes that a conspiracy within the American government was responsible, I can say you are wrong and (even if I can't prove it) either me or they are making a mistake.

By contrast opinion 2 is purely subjective my enjoyment of New Model Army over other bands is entirely down to my personal tastes. If someone else prefers One Direction and I say they are wrong, then we are not really disagreeing about any facts at all only our tastes. If I was to say "I think listening to New Model Army is more enjoyable than listening to anyone else and that this is always true for everyone anywhere", then you would think I was balmy - it just doesn't make sense that I should try and say that matters of personal taste are true for other people because the only think that makes it true for me IS my personal response.

So Leonard, when you say your opinion is that bullying children is wrong, is it an opinion like my opinion 1 based on facts or an opinion like my opinion 2 based on personal responses? You have said it is not based on facts so I assume you think it is like opinion 2.....but as we can see it doesn't make any sense to say that opinions of this type apply to other people - they can't as they are only your responses. That's why its a contradiction to think moral opinions are like opinion 2 but also say that it is wrong for someone who is bullying a child when the person doing the bullying thinks its ok.

Leonard James

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Re: Objective morality is independent of opinion....or is it?
« Reply #452 on: August 01, 2015, 11:07:16 AM »
Hi DT,

I'm sorry but we just seem to be going round in circles.

Thinking an action is right or wrong, doesn't make it so. It is just the opinion of the thinker.

If you talk about provable facts, then of course there is a right and a wrong, regardless of opinion.

jjohnjil

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Re: Objective morality is independent of opinion....or is it?
« Reply #453 on: August 01, 2015, 11:34:49 AM »
Hi DT,

I'm sorry but we just seem to be going round in circles.

Thinking an action is right or wrong, doesn't make it so. It is just the opinion of the thinker.

If you talk about provable facts, then of course there is a right and a wrong, regardless of opinion.

Len

Where DT is misreading our posts is the word 'opinion'.  He takes it that we mean it isn't particularly important to us whether anyone else thinks TACTDJFF is wrong or not. 

I'm sure, like me, you think TACTDJFF is an abominable act that everyone should THINK abominable and anyone who doesn't THINK it should be condemned as despicably immoral.

Where he goes wrong is to imagine morality is somewhere other than in the human brain  - and also (to a lesser extent) in a large number of other species brains too.  Theists just can't seem to grasp the fact.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2015, 11:37:08 AM by jjohnjil »

Dryghtons Toe

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Re: Objective morality is independent of opinion....or is it?
« Reply #454 on: August 01, 2015, 12:05:07 PM »
Hi DT,

I'm sorry but we just seem to be going round in circles.

Thinking an action is right or wrong, doesn't make it so. It is just the opinion of the thinker.

If you talk about provable facts, then of course there is a right and a wrong, regardless of opinion.

Len

Where DT is misreading our posts is the word 'opinion'.  He takes it that we mean it isn't particularly important to us whether anyone else thinks TACTDJFF is wrong or not. 

I'm sure, like me, you think TACTDJFF is an abominable act that everyone should THINK abominable and anyone who doesn't THINK it should be condemned as despicably immoral.

Where he goes wrong is to imagine morality is somewhere other than in the human brain  - and also (to a lesser extent) in a large number of other species brains too.  Theists just can't seem to grasp the fact.

Come now jjohnjil, Leonard may be able to get away with pulling the 'I'm having a senior moment so I can't follow the argument' trick but you can't and in which case your post is simply dishonest. I've not claimed that Leonard's moral opinions aren't important to him - quite the opposite actually I'm quite sure his sense of morality is quite normal and that he IS very moved by gay kids being bullied to death and that he DOES think it is wrong for everyone anywhere...these are all very normal features of moral discourse.

The point I have made to Leonard is that if his opinion is like my opinion 2 in form, no matter how much I may be moved by my personal responses or how important they are, then as long as it is just an opinion based on personal responses then I cannot consistently apply it to other people who do not share that response. It becomes as silly as me saying  'listen to New Model Army is more enjoyable than listening to other bands' is something that applies to you too whether you agree with it or not.

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I'm sorry but we just seem to be going round in circles.

Thinking an action is right or wrong, doesn't make it so. It is just the opinion of the thinker.

Well the circle Leonard is down to the fact that you keep saying its your opinion without saying what type of opinion it is. Is it an opinion like my Opinion 1 or is it like my opinion 2. If 2 then you have contradicted yourself I'm afraid for exactly the reason I've just explained in my reply to jjohnjil above. I'm sorry if you have a problem grasping that but simply restating 'its just the opinion of the thinker' doesn't get you out of the contradiction.


Leonard James

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Re: Objective morality is independent of opinion....or is it?
« Reply #455 on: August 01, 2015, 12:36:22 PM »
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Well the circle Leonard is down to the fact that you keep saying its your opinion without saying what type of opinion it is. Is it an opinion like my Opinion 1 or is it like my opinion 2. If 2 then you have contradicted yourself I'm afraid for exactly the reason I've just explained in my reply to jjohnjil above. I'm sorry if you have a problem grasping that but simply restating 'its just the opinion of the thinker' doesn't get you out of the contradiction.

"Opinion one" is not an opinion, it is a provable fact, and you can't call a provable fact an opinion.

Opinion two is true for you but not necessarily so for anybody else.

You are trying to equate reality to opinion, and it can't be done.

jjohnjil

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Re: Objective morality is independent of opinion....or is it?
« Reply #456 on: August 01, 2015, 01:06:04 PM »
Hi DT,

I'm sorry but we just seem to be going round in circles.

Thinking an action is right or wrong, doesn't make it so. It is just the opinion of the thinker.

If you talk about provable facts, then of course there is a right and a wrong, regardless of opinion.

Len

Where DT is misreading our posts is the word 'opinion'.  He takes it that we mean it isn't particularly important to us whether anyone else thinks TACTDJFF is wrong or not. 

I'm sure, like me, you think TACTDJFF is an abominable act that everyone should THINK abominable and anyone who doesn't THINK it should be condemned as despicably immoral.

Where he goes wrong is to imagine morality is somewhere other than in the human brain  - and also (to a lesser extent) in a large number of other species brains too.  Theists just can't seem to grasp the fact.

Come now jjohnjil, Leonard may be able to get away with pulling the 'I'm having a senior moment so I can't follow the argument' trick but you can't and in which case your post is simply dishonest. I've not claimed that Leonard's moral opinions aren't important to him - quite the opposite actually I'm quite sure his sense of morality is quite normal and that he IS very moved by gay kids being bullied to death and that he DOES think it is wrong for everyone anywhere...these are all very normal features of moral discourse.

The point I have made to Leonard is that if his opinion is like my opinion 2 in form, no matter how much I may be moved by my personal responses or how important they are, then as long as it is just an opinion based on personal responses then I cannot consistently apply it to other people who do not share that response. It becomes as silly as me saying  'listen to New Model Army is more enjoyable than listening to other bands' is something that applies to you too whether you agree with it or not.

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I'm sorry but we just seem to be going round in circles.

Thinking an action is right or wrong, doesn't make it so. It is just the opinion of the thinker.

Well the circle Leonard is down to the fact that you keep saying its your opinion without saying what type of opinion it is. Is it an opinion like my Opinion 1 or is it like my opinion 2. If 2 then you have contradicted yourself I'm afraid for exactly the reason I've just explained in my reply to jjohnjil above. I'm sorry if you have a problem grasping that but simply restating 'its just the opinion of the thinker' doesn't get you out of the contradiction.

I'm please you don't think Len is some sort of uncaring ogre, but it's certainly the way it comes across, DT. 

Your opinion 1 ... In this case you are simply saying what you think the fact of the matter is - you may be right, you may be wrong, but which is which, you have no way of knowing.

Your opinion 2 is simply what we call taste.

The assertion you make that objective morality exists and is somewhere other than in the mind is an opinion 1 - it may or it  may not.  Len and I and the majority of atheists do not think it exists at all but is an inevitable consequence of evolution (without us acquiring this sense, we would have died out a few million years ago).

You, along with all other theists, have the need to have something/someone/somewhere who decides these things and it warps your mind into ignoring the logical conclusion that we are all here by complete chance and in a million years time the Universe will carry on without any trace of us ever having been here.

TACTJDFF is wrong because we have an evolutionary need to rear our offspring and nature has made us think of such an act as unquestionably wrong!  If mice had our brains they would think killing baby mice just for fun was objectively immoral and that killing the offspring of those dangerous cats who do it as no worse than us putting down mouse traps because we have a dislike of mice! 



Dryghtons Toe

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Re: Objective morality is independent of opinion....or is it?
« Reply #457 on: August 01, 2015, 02:18:56 PM »
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"Opinion one" is not an opinion, it is a provable fact, and you can't call a provable fact an opinion.

That's rubbish everything we believe is by definition our opinion and with regard to this specific example you can go on youtube and watch conspiracy theory videos about 9/11 full of people making all kinds of claims. These seem ridiculous and far fetched and in my opinion the best explanation is that Islamic fundamentalist bombers were responsible.... But I can't prove it - I don't have access to the facts to be that sure. Same is true of many of my opinions - whether or not other universes exist, whether or not Jesus said many of the things attributed to him in the Gospel of John - all of these are factual questions I can't prove definitively one way or the other but which I can have an opinion about. You are simply trying to redefine terms to suit your argument.

regardless of this though....

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Opinion two is true for you but not necessarily so for anybody else.

I agree and if morality is also like this then you making a moral statement and saying that it is wrong for everyone everywhere wouldn't be correct would it? Which is why saying that it is with regards to bullying children is contradicts the account you give of morality.

Dryghtons Toe

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Re: Objective morality is independent of opinion....or is it?
« Reply #458 on: August 01, 2015, 02:20:23 PM »
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I'm please you don't think Len is some sort of uncaring ogre, but it's certainly the way it comes across, DT.

You don't seem to be reading my posts very carefully then. I've appealed to the very fact that when we change our core moral opinions it DOES matter to us so tremendously as a fact in support of realism as the reason we care so much about which moral views to adopt is that we care about adopting the RIGHT answer.

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Your opinion 1 ... In this case you are simply saying what you think the fact of the matter is - you may be right, you may be wrong, but which is which, you have no way of knowing.

Your opinion 2 is simply what we call taste.

The assertion you make that objective morality exists and is somewhere other than in the mind is an opinion 1 - it may or it  may not.

I'm not asserting that in my argument with Len although that is what I believe....what I'm pointing out in my argument with Len is that IF you think moral opinions are just based on personal tastes -the product of our own minds rather than on facts about the world, then we have no grounds whatsoever for saying that when we think something is wrong it is wrong for everyone including people who do not share those personal responses. Len however also wants to say that bullying gay kids is wrong for everyone whatever they may think. Clearly this is does not fit with his account of morality. I pointed this out to you before but like Len, you don't seem to want to grasp this nettle but rather want to talk about evolution instead which is entirely tangential to this point and in no way removes the contradiction.

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Len and I and the majority of atheists do not think it exists at all but is an inevitable consequence of evolution (without us acquiring this sense, we would have died out a few million years ago).

You, along with all other theists, have the need to have something/someone/somewhere who decides these things and it warps your mind into ignoring the logical conclusion that we are all here by complete chance and in a million years time the Universe will carry on without any trace of us ever having been here.

TACTJDFF is wrong because we have an evolutionary need to rear our offspring and nature has made us think of such an act as unquestionably wrong!  If mice had our brains they would think killing baby mice just for fun was objectively immoral and that killing the offspring of those dangerous cats who do it as no worse than us putting down mouse traps because we have a dislike of mice!

What you now seem to be saying is that we are programmed by evolution to think things are wrong and indeed it is so fundamental that it is wrong for everyone even though it doesn't exist anywhere but in our minds. Len and I were discussing the example of bully gay kids so if this was so engrained it raises a number of problems:

(1) if it was so deeply programmed that it was irresistible for us to think that it was ok to bully gay kids to death, then we wouldn't expect anyone who was human to be able to think it. But some people do seem to think its ok to bully gay kids to death as we have seen, indeed its even been socially acceptable and law in certain places and times to kill gay people so its not even a minor phenomenon common only to a few psychopaths. Doesn't seem to be much case for it being an irresistible programme of evolution here then does it?

(2) People have given very similar explanations that you provide of morality, to religion - they have looked at the functional role that God has played in human society throughout our evolution and talked about our brains being 'hard-wired' to believe in God. If this were true though I'd doubt that you or many of your atheist buddies would simply say "oh well if its a product of evolution we better start believing in God then, its just the way we are wired"...I have no doubt you'd rather think that our realisation about evolution has helped us to 'see beyond' these natural delusions of evolution. In exactly the same way it begs the question of why on earth, if we come to realise that our tendency to treat moral statements as being universally applicable like other factual statements is just a mechanism of evolution that is useful, rather than an indicator of truth, that we should possibly expect it to have the same hold over us as it did without that realisation. It might be useful to go about being moral most of the time but hell there are plenty of times we all know we can probably get away with this or that immoral act so why not right??? Moral truth after all is just an illusion right? As I said before, it is one thing to  say our sense of moral truth is an illusion created by evolution, its quite another to think we can realise this and still go on thinking about morality In the same way or expecting it to have the same hold over people once they have recognised this.

(3) Even if your claim was true, it would not remove the contradiction between Len's view of his moral views being only a subjective opinion and him wanting to say that his judgement is applicable to people who disagree with him.

Enki

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Re: Objective morality is independent of opinion....or is it?
« Reply #459 on: August 01, 2015, 05:39:04 PM »
I do not put forward the following view of my sense of morality as anything but my opinions on said subject. However I do suggest that I am being internally consistent by having such views.


1) I see morality as having an evolutionary basis.

2) I see no reason to think that the idea of evolution needs an outside agency such as a god for the process of evolution to work. Hence, I see no reason to think that morality needs any outside agency.

3) I accept that there is a 'potential' for morality, if it aids survival. However I see this as no different to any other 'potentials' such as the eye, movement, ability to breed, speed, strength, selfishness and a myriad of other characteristics of living things. I do not see these 'potentials' as having any outside existence in their own right, and, therefore do not regard them as objective in the sense of having an existence separate from the creatures which exhibit these characteristics.
 
4) I have a morality which I try to adhere to. For me, this is probably driven by such traits as empathy  and natural feelings of co-operation and responsibility towards others. Culture, environment, experience, upbringing, and a rational approach, for me, superimpose upon those feelings, so that I attempt to give the most constructive outcome which would satisfy my original motivations. I do not see this as some 'distortion' of morality in any way. My morality seems entirely consistent with certain evolutionary motivations rather than reflecting some sort of morality which has an objective existence. Thus my sense of moral wrongness/rightness depends upon my own unique characteristics wedded to group characteristics via evolution.

5) I generally think and feel that I am correct in my moral thoughts and decisions, because that is the way in which I have evolved to think and feel. That is not to say that I can't make immoral decisions, but it would be odd, indeed, if I went around thinking that my moral thoughts and decisions were inherently wrong.  However If it was demonstrated to me that some particular moral thought or action of mine was wrong, then I would try to analyse why it might be wrong, and if then I was convinced of this wrongness, I would try to adjust accordingly.

6) Moral thoughts and decisions can involve deep seated and natural emotions, often in relation to the extreme nature of a situation. Hence, in general terms, I would consider a brutal murder or a savage rape to be much more extreme than a small theft, for instance. Thus I would have a greater sense of condemnation for murder than theft. I find this to be entirely consistent with the evolutionary characteristics I referred to in point 4.

7) Because I am a member of an extremely social species, I see the need for group decisions as well as for valuing my own. Therefore, and especially, when I see social cohesion being threatened or undermined, I also understand the impulse for curtailing antisocial behaviour in myself and others. Conflict often arises from this attempt at balancing social/individual behaviour. I see this as entirely consistent with point 1 and point 4.

8 ) Once I die, my own motivations and feelings are no longer in existence. I might well hope that others may have the same sense of morality that I had, but it would be of no relevance to me as I no longer exist. In other words my sense of morality has died with me.

9) If all human beings died(and leaving aside the evidence for proto-morality in certain other animals) then, as I see it, there would be no such thing as morality actually existing, although the 'potential' for morality would not cease, given that evolution continues and that morality aids survival.
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jjohnjil

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Re: Objective morality is independent of opinion....or is it?
« Reply #460 on: August 01, 2015, 05:46:49 PM »
DT

Firstly, Len is not basing his opinion on personal tastes, he cares about gay kids being bullied just as much as you or I do, probably a good deal more!  Your opinion/assertion that that is how he feels about it is what I meant about you treating him like some sort of monster!

Atheists care about the wrongs of this world because they think things are wrong, NOT as theists seem to think - because it's some sort of law that they have to obey in case God sends them to Hell!

Secondly, evolution does not work in the way you state.  Some people thinking gay bashing is not immoral is no different to kids being born with Downs Syndrome, we are not all endowed with the same standard/quality of genes!  In fact it is exactly how evolution works!

Objective morality is nothing more than a way of making God responsible for the way we think.  It's circular because one cannot exist without the other!  Your argument that some atheists believe in OM is flawed, they believe morality to be a universally held POV, albeit different in other societies and in other times.  For instance, your God seemed to be quite content for slave owners to keep people in life-long servitude, so  where was OM in those days?

The best of the laughs though was your assertion that gay marriage is OM!  Marriage itself was purely a way of men getting their sex legally and a housekeeper - or for gaining other peoples wealth and lands by marrying their daughters to other rich men.  Love didn't enter into it until Victorian times.  Love between gays was looked on as a cardinal sin by Christians for millennia and marriage between them unthinkable and yet you seem to think it is set in stone somewhere as OM!  Ludicrous!

I can see you are as deeply impaled as the Alien and nothing anyone can say will prise you out of that, but it's quite enjoyable to have decent debate instead of TW type mutterings, so thanks for that.

Leonard James

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Re: Objective morality is independent of opinion....or is it?
« Reply #461 on: August 01, 2015, 07:45:57 PM »
Hi DT,

"Even if your claim was true, it would not remove the contradiction between Len's view of his moral views being only a subjective opinion and him wanting to say that his judgement is applicable to people who disagree with him."

I have never said that. MY OPINION IS THAT bullying a child to the point of suicide is always wrong, but I do not say that everybody must accept that opinion, because clearly some don't.

Dryghtons Toe

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Re: Objective morality is independent of opinion....or is it?
« Reply #462 on: August 02, 2015, 11:33:43 AM »
Hi DT,

"Even if your claim was true, it would not remove the contradiction between Len's view of his moral views being only a subjective opinion and him wanting to say that his judgement is applicable to people who disagree with him."

I have never said that. MY OPINION IS THAT bullying a child to the point of suicide is always wrong, but I do not say that everybody must accept that opinion, because clearly some don't.

Hi Len,

Sure no one can be compelled to accept anything, but you have told us that by YOUR OPINION you mean its just based on your own personal responses and not on anything external. Ok, well if that's right and morality has no other basis to derive its judgements about what is right or wrong other than peoples personal responses then we aren't able to say that someone who doesn't share your response is doing something that is 'wrong' as, as your theory of morality implies, things are only wrong because of our personal responses to them. You might not like what they do, but as you can't appeal to any standard you both share the most you can actually say about it is that you 'disapprove of their actions'.

Now that's all well and good, but the trouble is Leonard you said very clearly that morality does mean more than simply 'disapproval'. I think you are right and being entirely honest in saying this - no society anywhere has simply meant 'we disapprove' when we say something is morally wrong and most people would agree with you that reducing the statement 'it is wrong to bully children' to only meaning ' disapprove of bullying children' is an appalling weakening of morality. Yet IF your theory of morality is true and IF you have nothing to appeal to other than your personal responses, you have no resources at all to be able to say that morality is anything other than simply your disapproval, no matter how much you may want to.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2015, 11:35:34 AM by Dryghtons Toe »

Dryghtons Toe

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Re: Objective morality is independent of opinion....or is it?
« Reply #463 on: August 02, 2015, 11:36:28 AM »
I do not put forward the following view of my sense of morality as anything but my opinions on said subject. However I do suggest that I am being internally consistent by having such views.


1) I see morality as having an evolutionary basis.

2) I see no reason to think that the idea of evolution needs an outside agency such as a god for the process of evolution to work. Hence, I see no reason to think that morality needs any outside agency.

3) I accept that there is a 'potential' for morality, if it aids survival. However I see this as no different to any other 'potentials' such as the eye, movement, ability to breed, speed, strength, selfishness and a myriad of other characteristics of living things. I do not see these 'potentials' as having any outside existence in their own right, and, therefore do not regard them as objective in the sense of having an existence separate from the creatures which exhibit these characteristics.
 
4) I have a morality which I try to adhere to. For me, this is probably driven by such traits as empathy  and natural feelings of co-operation and responsibility towards others. Culture, environment, experience, upbringing, and a rational approach, for me, superimpose upon those feelings, so that I attempt to give the most constructive outcome which would satisfy my original motivations. I do not see this as some 'distortion' of morality in any way. My morality seems entirely consistent with certain evolutionary motivations rather than reflecting some sort of morality which has an objective existence. Thus my sense of moral wrongness/rightness depends upon my own unique characteristics wedded to group characteristics via evolution.

5) I generally think and feel that I am correct in my moral thoughts and decisions, because that is the way in which I have evolved to think and feel. That is not to say that I can't make immoral decisions, but it would be odd, indeed, if I went around thinking that my moral thoughts and decisions were inherently wrong.  However If it was demonstrated to me that some particular moral thought or action of mine was wrong, then I would try to analyse why it might be wrong, and if then I was convinced of this wrongness, I would try to adjust accordingly.

6) Moral thoughts and decisions can involve deep seated and natural emotions, often in relation to the extreme nature of a situation. Hence, in general terms, I would consider a brutal murder or a savage rape to be much more extreme than a small theft, for instance. Thus I would have a greater sense of condemnation for murder than theft. I find this to be entirely consistent with the evolutionary characteristics I referred to in point 4.

7) Because I am a member of an extremely social species, I see the need for group decisions as well as for valuing my own. Therefore, and especially, when I see social cohesion being threatened or undermined, I also understand the impulse for curtailing antisocial behaviour in myself and others. Conflict often arises from this attempt at balancing social/individual behaviour. I see this as entirely consistent with point 1 and point 4.

8 ) Once I die, my own motivations and feelings are no longer in existence. I might well hope that others may have the same sense of morality that I had, but it would be of no relevance to me as I no longer exist. In other words my sense of morality has died with me.

9) If all human beings died(and leaving aside the evidence for proto-morality in certain other animals) then, as I see it, there would be no such thing as morality actually existing, although the 'potential' for morality would not cease, given that evolution continues and that morality aids survival.

Nice to see you again Enki. You have given an account above of morality emerging through the process of evolution and its importance to us as a social species. As I see a key aspect of morality being about what promotes our flourishing as conscious beings and given that this involves us flourishing in a social context as social beings a don't have any problem with the evolutionary account you give at all, except were you spin it add in your own assumptions about there not being a spiritual dimension to our being. You may well believe this and I may not, but besides these assumptions we bring to it the actual facts of the process you describe don't worry my realist account at all - they provide the context in which we discover moral truth. As moral truth is in part defined by our flourishing its no surprise at all that our core instincts about right or wrong will also often tie in with evolutionary traits promoting our survival.

The really interesting bit in your account though is here:

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I generally think and feel that I am correct in my moral thoughts and decisions, because that is the way in which I have evolved to think and feel.

You are quite rightly acknowledging here that our moral thought DOES assume that our moral reasoning is a question of right or wrong, its honest of you to admit this fairly obvious truth while so many of your atheist buddies have been squirming round it. However you then say that this is "the way in which I have evolved." The key take away for me here is that giving an evolutionary account as you and jjohnjil do does not in anyway sidestep the question I am asking about whether moral statements really are questions that are true or false (as you admit they seem to be) or whether they are in fact just based on our personal responses. As you can see, I can give an evolutionary account that is also realist too, but when you say that we think of moral statements as correct or wrong because "this the way we have evolved" begs the question of whether its (1) evolved like that because we are discovering truth in the world through the process of our evolution and social interaction or (2) whether it just seems that way but in fact its just our personal responses.

If its (2) then your broader evolutionary account doesn't help you one bit with the problem - when I say that atheists should except that morality is 'distorted' if their account were true it means exactly what you seem to be describing - that it seems to be that moral questions are ones with right or wrong answers  but actually in reality they can't really be at all if morality is rooted in our personal responses. That I'm afraid is what distortion means. Further, your evolutionary account doesn't get you our of the dilemma of how we go about thinking about morality now once this is realised: if you are right and if we have now got to such a point in our evolution that we can reflect on the process and recognise that these moral questions we think of as right or wrong can't really be that at all, but rather can only be our preferences. As I said in my reply to jjohnjil, we can give an evolutionary/social account of religion but I doubt that will make you convert to belief in God simply because it may be 'hard wired' into us. Same is true of morality once we understand that the structure of our moral experience is in fact pointing to a truth that on your account doesn't really exist.

Your whole post is another good example of exactly what Vlad has highlighted before - a tendency among atheists to invoke evolutionary accounts as if they somehow answered the underlying questions when in reality they simply beg those very questions they attempt to answer.

Dryghtons Toe

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Re: Objective morality is independent of opinion....or is it?
« Reply #464 on: August 02, 2015, 11:50:56 AM »

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Firstly, Len is not basing his opinion on personal tastes, he cares about gay kids being bullied just as much as you or I do, probably a good deal more!  Your opinion/assertion that that is how he feels about it is what I meant about you treating him like some sort of monster!

What are you talking about? Our personal responses include our emotional response such as what we care about. The question is are moral judgements questions about facts about the world or are they grounded in personal responses such as how we respond emotionally to something. Clearly if I'm saying Len's morality is based on the fact he cares about it I am not saying he is uncaring. I have no idea what else yo think personal responses may mean.

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Atheists care about the wrongs of this world because they think things are wrong, NOT as theists seem to think - because it's some sort of law that they have to obey in case God sends them to Hell!

I don't believe in hell and my account of moral truth isn't based on divine commands. You are flailing.


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Secondly, evolution does not work in the way you state.  Some people thinking gay bashing is not immoral is no different to kids being born with Downs Syndrome, we are not all endowed with the same standard/quality of genes!  In fact it is exactly how evolution works!

In which case trying to explain morality in terms of being programmed to think of something as right or wrong is a none starter then isn't it? Best not get distracted by it then!

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Objective morality is nothing more than a way of making God responsible for the way we think.  It's circular because one cannot exist without the other!  Your argument that some atheists believe in OM is flawed, they believe morality to be a universally held POV, albeit different in other societies and in other times.

No one has given an atheist account of OM here and as I have explained our reason for believing in OM is rooted in our moral experience and does not reference God. I can understand why you don't want to address the actual argument though seeing as all your athiest buddies have failed so far.


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For instance, your God seemed to be quite content for slave owners to keep people in life-long servitude, so  where was OM in those days?

Sorry when was this? You seem to be taking me for a Christian inerrantist, I am not a Christian at all.


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The best of the laughs though was your assertion that gay marriage is OM!  Marriage itself was purely a way of men getting their sex legally and a housekeeper - or for gaining other peoples wealth and lands by marrying their daughters to other rich men.  Love didn't enter into it until Victorian times.  Love between gays was looked on as a cardinal sin by Christians for millennia and marriage between them unthinkable and yet you seem to think it is set in stone somewhere as OM!  Ludicrous!

If you think that you don't understand what morality is. I don't believe in moral principles at all certainly not unchanging ones. What is the right moral answer to a question is always dependent on the morally relevant variables. A question about the moral rightness or wrongness of Gay Marriage is one that we take understanding  the social context and meanings it has in our society. To say it is right doesn't mean the answer is the same in all places and times, just that when we take all these variables into account there IS a right answer.

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I can see you are as deeply impaled as the Alien and nothing anyone can say will prise you out of that, but it's quite enjoyable to have decent debate instead of TW type mutterings, so thanks for that.

Well a good argument to the contra might help, unfortunately for you, you haven't provided one - indeed you have only demonstrated repeatedly you don't understand the argument.

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Re: Objective morality is independent of opinion....or is it?
« Reply #465 on: August 02, 2015, 11:53:23 AM »
Yet IF your theory of morality is true and IF you have nothing to appeal to other than your personal responses, you have no resources at all to be able to say that morality is anything other than simply your disapproval, no matter how much you may want to.

Exactly! And since so many of us are like-minded about some things, and because we are a social species, we have to arrive at a moral code to live by ... the law. Members who transgress that code and act antisocially must be punished and controlled.

Enki

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Re: Objective morality is independent of opinion....or is it?
« Reply #466 on: August 02, 2015, 01:18:28 PM »
I do not put forward the following view of my sense of morality as anything but my opinions on said subject. However I do suggest that I am being internally consistent by having such views.


1) I see morality as having an evolutionary basis.

2) I see no reason to think that the idea of evolution needs an outside agency such as a god for the process of evolution to work. Hence, I see no reason to think that morality needs any outside agency.

3) I accept that there is a 'potential' for morality, if it aids survival. However I see this as no different to any other 'potentials' such as the eye, movement, ability to breed, speed, strength, selfishness and a myriad of other characteristics of living things. I do not see these 'potentials' as having any outside existence in their own right, and, therefore do not regard them as objective in the sense of having an existence separate from the creatures which exhibit these characteristics.
 
4) I have a morality which I try to adhere to. For me, this is probably driven by such traits as empathy  and natural feelings of co-operation and responsibility towards others. Culture, environment, experience, upbringing, and a rational approach, for me, superimpose upon those feelings, so that I attempt to give the most constructive outcome which would satisfy my original motivations. I do not see this as some 'distortion' of morality in any way. My morality seems entirely consistent with certain evolutionary motivations rather than reflecting some sort of morality which has an objective existence. Thus my sense of moral wrongness/rightness depends upon my own unique characteristics wedded to group characteristics via evolution.

5) I generally think and feel that I am correct in my moral thoughts and decisions, because that is the way in which I have evolved to think and feel. That is not to say that I can't make immoral decisions, but it would be odd, indeed, if I went around thinking that my moral thoughts and decisions were inherently wrong.  However If it was demonstrated to me that some particular moral thought or action of mine was wrong, then I would try to analyse why it might be wrong, and if then I was convinced of this wrongness, I would try to adjust accordingly.

6) Moral thoughts and decisions can involve deep seated and natural emotions, often in relation to the extreme nature of a situation. Hence, in general terms, I would consider a brutal murder or a savage rape to be much more extreme than a small theft, for instance. Thus I would have a greater sense of condemnation for murder than theft. I find this to be entirely consistent with the evolutionary characteristics I referred to in point 4.

7) Because I am a member of an extremely social species, I see the need for group decisions as well as for valuing my own. Therefore, and especially, when I see social cohesion being threatened or undermined, I also understand the impulse for curtailing antisocial behaviour in myself and others. Conflict often arises from this attempt at balancing social/individual behaviour. I see this as entirely consistent with point 1 and point 4.

8 ) Once I die, my own motivations and feelings are no longer in existence. I might well hope that others may have the same sense of morality that I had, but it would be of no relevance to me as I no longer exist. In other words my sense of morality has died with me.

9) If all human beings died(and leaving aside the evidence for proto-morality in certain other animals) then, as I see it, there would be no such thing as morality actually existing, although the 'potential' for morality would not cease, given that evolution continues and that morality aids survival.

Nice to see you again Enki. You have given an account above of morality emerging through the process of evolution and its importance to us as a social species. As I see a key aspect of morality being about what promotes our flourishing as conscious beings and given that this involves us flourishing in a social context as social beings a don't have any problem with the evolutionary account you give at all, except were you spin it add in your own assumptions about there not being a spiritual dimension to our being. You may well believe this and I may not, but besides these assumptions we bring to it the actual facts of the process you describe don't worry my realist account at all - they provide the context in which we discover moral truth. As moral truth is in part defined by our flourishing its no surprise at all that our core instincts about right or wrong will also often tie in with evolutionary traits promoting our survival.

The really interesting bit in your account though is here:

Quote
I generally think and feel that I am correct in my moral thoughts and decisions, because that is the way in which I have evolved to think and feel.

You are quite rightly acknowledging here that our moral thought DOES assume that our moral reasoning is a question of right or wrong, its honest of you to admit this fairly obvious truth while so many of your atheist buddies have been squirming round it. However you then say that this is "the way in which I have evolved." The key take away for me here is that giving an evolutionary account as you and jjohnjil do does not in anyway sidestep the question I am asking about whether moral statements really are questions that are true or false (as you admit they seem to be) or whether they are in fact just based on our personal responses. As you can see, I can give an evolutionary account that is also realist too, but when you say that we think of moral statements as correct or wrong because "this the way we have evolved" begs the question of whether its (1) evolved like that because we are discovering truth in the world through the process of our evolution and social interaction or (2) whether it just seems that way but in fact its just our personal responses.

If its (2) then your broader evolutionary account doesn't help you one bit with the problem - when I say that atheists should except that morality is 'distorted' if their account were true it means exactly what you seem to be describing - that it seems to be that moral questions are ones with right or wrong answers  but actually in reality they can't really be at all if morality is rooted in our personal responses. That I'm afraid is what distortion means. Further, your evolutionary account doesn't get you our of the dilemma of how we go about thinking about morality now once this is realised: if you are right and if we have now got to such a point in our evolution that we can reflect on the process and recognise that these moral questions we think of as right or wrong can't really be that at all, but rather can only be our preferences. As I said in my reply to jjohnjil, we can give an evolutionary/social account of religion but I doubt that will make you convert to belief in God simply because it may be 'hard wired' into us. Same is true of morality once we understand that the structure of our moral experience is in fact pointing to a truth that on your account doesn't really exist.

Your whole post is another good example of exactly what Vlad has highlighted before - a tendency among atheists to invoke evolutionary accounts as if they somehow answered the underlying questions when in reality they simply beg those very questions they attempt to answer.

Hi DT,

Just a few points in response to Your Mess. 466:

I have already stated that, for me, moral questions are not a question of true or false, but of my personal interpretation given the factors that I have already mentioned. I had hoped that my point 4 had made this point clear, when I stated that " my sense of moral wrongness/rightness depends upon my own unique characteristics wedded to group characteristics via evolution.". This does not suggest that I see moral questions as being true or false in any objective way.

If I considered that morality was something extraneous to us, then my arguments could well be taken to show that I am expounding some sort of distortion to that morality. But I don't think this. For me, the whole idea of morality is a human construct. If you see this as a 'distortion' of morality, that would surely have to be based upon the idea that there is an extraneous 'morality' to distort from. However, as I have no reason to think that there is this extraneous morality, then the idea of distortion does not arise.

The question that I ask myself is where does our moral sense come from. I 'invoke' evolution only because it genuinely seems to me to be the best explanation for our moral feelings, thoughts and actions.
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Dryghtons Toe

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Re: Objective morality is independent of opinion....or is it?
« Reply #467 on: August 02, 2015, 01:52:27 PM »
Yet IF your theory of morality is true and IF you have nothing to appeal to other than your personal responses, you have no resources at all to be able to say that morality is anything other than simply your disapproval, no matter how much you may want to.

Exactly! And since so many of us are like-minded about some things, and because we are a social species, we have to arrive at a moral code to live by ... the law. Members who transgress that code and act antisocially must be punished and controlled.

So you do agree - great! so when you said before (and I quote) "Another repeat! I don't just disapprove of it, I consider it wrong" then seeing as you have now agreed that saying it is wrong can, for you, mean nothing more than disapproval you are contradicting yourself.

No wonder I have to repeat myself Leonard its like wading through treacle getting you to see the implications of your own position. Nevertheless there was very good reason when you originally said "I don't just disapprove of it, I consider it wrong" because this is exactly what anyone expressing a normal moral view would also want to say - that morality is certainly much more than just disapproval. The fact that you have finally had to admit this is all your theory is capable of delivering proves my point very well - namely that an anti-realist morality is nothing like morality as we experience it. It is a thin counterfeit.

Dryghtons Toe

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Re: Objective morality is independent of opinion....or is it?
« Reply #468 on: August 02, 2015, 01:55:08 PM »
Quote
Hi DT,

Just a few points in response to Your Mess. 466:

I have already stated that, for me, moral questions are not a question of true or false, but of my personal interpretation given the factors that I have already mentioned. I had hoped that my point 4 had made this point clear, when I stated that " my sense of moral wrongness/rightness depends upon my own unique characteristics wedded to group characteristics via evolution.". This does not suggest that I see moral questions as being true or false in any objective way.

If I considered that morality was something extraneous to us, then my arguments could well be taken to show that I am expounding some sort of distortion to that morality. But I don't think this. For me, the whole idea of morality is a human construct. If you see this as a 'distortion' of morality, that would surely have to be based upon the idea that there is an extraneous 'morality' to distort from. However, as I have no reason to think that there is this extraneous morality, then the idea of distortion does not arise.

The question that I ask myself is where does our moral sense come from. I 'invoke' evolution only because it genuinely seems to me to be the best explanation for our moral feelings, thoughts and actions.

Hi Enki,

I understand that your "sense of moral wrongness/rightness depends upon my own unique characteristics wedded to group characteristics via evolution". The point I made in my post though is that when you appeal to evolution it doesn't do the job of getting past the question of whether moral questions are derived from facts or personal responses - I illustrated this by giving a realist account which sees evolution as the method via we discover moral truth. To understand your post then I have to interpret your statement "via evolution" to mean something like 'an interpretation of evolution whereby the process of evolution causes us to invent concepts of right and wrong to survive.' Now that's all well and good but it doesn't prevent us from asking the question:

 "when I make a judgement that bullying gay children to death is wrong, am I doing so because based on moral facts or is it ultimately based on the way I personally respond to the situation".

If its ultimately on facts, even if physical, social and evolutionary adaptive facts form part of those facts, then there is a right answer to moral questions independent of what we believe. If though we are saying that evolution and our status as social animals causes us to have certain sort of personal responses to things like bully children that can be explained with reference to our evolutionary needs, this doesn't change the answer from being 'its ultimately based on a personal response'. In other words the question of evolutions role in EITHER setting the context for the relevant facts OR setting the context for our personal responses doesn't in any way stop us asking the question of whether it is ultimately about facts or about personal responses.

If its about facts then it is the facts that determine moral truth and moral questions are objectively right or wrong dependent on those facts. If it is based on personal responses then all the same problems come back - any moral questions that are only matters of personal response can at best only be expressions of approval or disapproval... and if that is the case then they cannot be questions that are correct or incorrect in anything but a very thin and trivial sense. Yet as you yourself correctly admit, we do generally think we are correct and other people incorrect with regard to moral questions: this leaves the anti-realists with little room to manoeuvre accept to admit that the way we experience morality is an illusion in the same way an atheist might thing our evolution has left humans as a species 'hard wired' to be religious.



Enki

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Re: Objective morality is independent of opinion....or is it?
« Reply #469 on: August 02, 2015, 02:35:09 PM »
Hi DT,

I don't know whether morality is an illusion that we necessarily subject ourselves to or a reality that we see but dimly, that is true. But the fact that we think we are correct/incorrect about all sorts of things doesn't necessarily mean that we have some sort of truth in any objective sense, unless it can be demonstrated one way or the other.

Hence I am left with my own best explanation of the moral sense...which I have given.
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Leonard James

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Re: Objective morality is independent of opinion....or is it?
« Reply #470 on: August 02, 2015, 03:44:42 PM »
Yet IF your theory of morality is true and IF you have nothing to appeal to other than your personal responses, you have no resources at all to be able to say that morality is anything other than simply your disapproval, no matter how much you may want to.

Exactly! And since so many of us are like-minded about some things, and because we are a social species, we have to arrive at a moral code to live by ... the law. Members who transgress that code and act antisocially must be punished and controlled.

So you do agree - great! so when you said before (and I quote) "Another repeat! I don't just disapprove of it, I consider it wrong" then seeing as you have now agreed that saying it is wrong can, for you, mean nothing more than disapproval you are contradicting yourself.

No wonder I have to repeat myself Leonard its like wading through treacle getting you to see the implications of your own position. Nevertheless there was very good reason when you originally said "I don't just disapprove of it, I consider it wrong" because this is exactly what anyone expressing a normal moral view would also want to say - that morality is certainly much more than just disapproval. The fact that you have finally had to admit this is all your theory is capable of delivering proves my point very well - namely that an anti-realist morality is nothing like morality as we experience it. It is a thin counterfeit.

I have always maintained the same thing. If you have gathered otherwise, then either you have misinterpreted my post, or I have failed to explain myself clearly.

None of this, however, shows that an objective morality exists ... and I maintain it doesn't.

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Re: Objective morality is independent of opinion....or is it?
« Reply #471 on: August 02, 2015, 08:54:21 PM »
Yet IF your theory of morality is true and IF you have nothing to appeal to other than your personal responses, you have no resources at all to be able to say that morality is anything other than simply your disapproval, no matter how much you may want to.

Exactly! And since so many of us are like-minded about some things, and because we are a social species, we have to arrive at a moral code to live by ... the law. Members who transgress that code and act antisocially must be punished and controlled.

So you do agree - great! so when you said before (and I quote) "Another repeat! I don't just disapprove of it, I consider it wrong" then seeing as you have now agreed that saying it is wrong can, for you, mean nothing more than disapproval you are contradicting yourself.

No wonder I have to repeat myself Leonard its like wading through treacle getting you to see the implications of your own position. Nevertheless there was very good reason when you originally said "I don't just disapprove of it, I consider it wrong" because this is exactly what anyone expressing a normal moral view would also want to say - that morality is certainly much more than just disapproval. The fact that you have finally had to admit this is all your theory is capable of delivering proves my point very well - namely that an anti-realist morality is nothing like morality as we experience it. It is a thin counterfeit.

I have always maintained the same thing. If you have gathered otherwise, then either you have misinterpreted my post, or I have failed to explain myself clearly.

None of this, however, shows that an objective morality exists ... and I maintain it doesn't.

You have always maintained the same thing Leonard, you have always maintained that morality DOES mean more than just disapproval and at the same time you have also always maintained a theory of morality that despite your protestations doesn't allow it to be anything other than just disapproval. In this way you have illustrated my point beautifully by showing that while you recognise that morality has to be more than saying 'I don't like that' you weren't able to articulate anything that made sense of it being so. Thank you.


Dryghtons Toe

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Re: Objective morality is independent of opinion....or is it?
« Reply #472 on: August 02, 2015, 08:55:46 PM »
Quote
Hi DT,

I don't know whether morality is an illusion that we necessarily subject ourselves to or a reality that we see but dimly, that is true. But the fact that we think we are correct/incorrect about all sorts of things doesn't necessarily mean that we have some sort of truth in any objective sense, unless it can be demonstrated one way or the other.

Hence I am left with my own best explanation of the moral sense...which I have given.

You have, but as per my last post your explanation isn't an explanation that I disagree with, at least not in the facts of evolution stripped of extra interpretation - evolution is neutral to the whole question we are discussing, open to both realist and anti-realist interpretations. In that sense 'evolution did it' isn't actually an explanation at all if the question is 'is morality objective or not'. To answer that we DO have to look at the question of whether its illusion or whether its a reality, however dimly we see it, and the interpretation you bring to the evolution account will depend on your preconceptions about the answer to that.

Still it doesn't stop us asking the questions we have been posing, e.g. How is it that we go about making decisions about whether, for instance, whether bully a gay child is wrong?'. Saying "evolution did it" doesn't help us answer that at all - I still need to know whether I'm appealing to facts (even if evolutionary determined) or personal responses (even if evolutionary determined). As that's the question that makes the difference here and as your explanation seems by your own admittance unable to help us deal with it one way or the other (after all you do say you 'don't know') what we need to get back to is looking at the character of our moral reasoning as opposed to speculations about how that character arose in an evolutionary context.

Regards

DT

Leonard James

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Re: Objective morality is independent of opinion....or is it?
« Reply #473 on: August 03, 2015, 06:29:04 AM »

You have always maintained the same thing Leonard, you have always maintained that morality DOES mean more than just disapproval and at the same time you have also always maintained a theory of morality that despite your protestations doesn't allow it to be anything other than just disapproval.

That is a lie! I have never maintained it is just a matter of disapproval. I have said quite categorically that it is wrong TTACTDFF. You continue to ignore the fact that I have also said that is my opinion, since there is no objective morality to refer to.

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In this way you have illustrated my point beautifully by showing that while you recognise that morality has to be more than saying 'I don't like that' you weren't able to articulate anything that made sense of it being so. Thank you.

Smug, but as usual untrue.

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Re: Objective morality is independent of opinion....or is it?
« Reply #474 on: August 03, 2015, 07:18:29 AM »

You have always maintained the same thing Leonard, you have always maintained that morality DOES mean more than just disapproval and at the same time you have also always maintained a theory of morality that despite your protestations doesn't allow it to be anything other than just disapproval.

That is a lie! I have never maintained it is just a matter of disapproval. I have said quite categorically that it is wrong TTACTDFF. You continue to ignore the fact that I have also said that is my opinion, since there is no objective morality to refer to.

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In this way you have illustrated my point beautifully by showing that while you recognise that morality has to be more than saying 'I don't like that' you weren't able to articulate anything that made sense of it being so. Thank you.

Smug, but as usual untrue.

Did you read my post before replying Leonard? I said "you have always maintained that morality DOES mean more than just disapproval"...you even quote me saying this....have a look! That's why your post illustrates my point so well. You, like most people recognise morality does involve more than disaproval ....it's just that you also support an account of morality that can't allow it to mean anything more than this. While the other atheists have tiptoed round this you, while being honest but also clearly not quite following the implications of your moral theory have demonstrated exactly the point I have been arguing for.