There is no health in us.

[Rhiannon]

This is from Evensong from the Anglican Book of Common Prayer:

ALMIGHTY and most merciful Father, We have erred, and strayed from thy ways like lost sheep, We have followed too much the devices and desires of our own hearts, We have offended against thy holy laws, We have left undone those things which we ought to have done, And we have done those things which we ought not to have done, And there is no health in us: But thou, O Lord, have mercy upon us miserable offenders; Spare thou them, O God, which confess their faults, Restore thou them that are penitent, According to thy promises declared unto mankind in Christ Jesu our Lord: And grant, O most merciful Father, for his sake, That we may hereafter live a godly, righteous, and sober life, To the glory of thy holy Name. Amen.

Is this true? Is there no health in us? Are we all miserable offenders?

[Shaker]

Rhi, with all the "interpretation" in the world I really don't see how you can get around the fact that this is precisely what Christianity insists is the case.

It's a miserable, rather sordid affair, all of it.

[Leonard James]

This is from Evensong from the Anglican Book of Common Prayer:

ALMIGHTY and most merciful Father, We have erred, and strayed from thy ways like lost sheep, We have followed too much the devices and desires of our own hearts, We have offended against thy holy laws, We have left undone those things which we ought to have done, And we have done those things which we ought not to have done, And there is no health in us: But thou, O Lord, have mercy upon us miserable offenders; Spare thou them, O God, which confess their faults, Restore thou them that are penitent, According to thy promises declared unto mankind in Christ Jesu our Lord: And grant, O most merciful Father, for his sake, That we may hereafter live a godly, righteous, and sober life, To the glory of thy holy Name. Amen.

Is this true? Is there no health in us? Are we all miserable offenders?

Of course it isn't true! It just another ploy to break down the confidence of the weak-minded.

Every human being is a mixture of good and bad, in varying degrees. It's perfectly natural for it to be so, since that is how evolution works.

[ekim]

Sounds like another example to that on the 'searching for God' thread.  Health or wellbeing only comes from being in tune with the Will of God.  'Devices and desires of our own hearts' is another way of describing self will.

[Shaker]

... and self-will, autonomy, is a real no-no for gods. Just ask Prometheus.

[wigginhall]

It sounds rather Calvinist, but I don't know the history of this stuff.  There is similar stuff in the 39 Articles, 'we have no power to do good works pleasant and acceptable to God without the grace of God by Christ preventing us,' (Article X).

Logically, this seems to mean the same, that you cannot originate any good, isn't that Calvinist?  It also suggests that non-Christians cannot do good?

[Shaker]

Yes, but we don't talk about that.

[Leonard James]

It also suggests that non-Christians cannot do good?

Please tell me there aren't really any people who believe such obvious rubbish?

[Alan Burns]

It also suggests that non-Christians cannot do good?

Please tell me there aren't really any people who believe such obvious rubbish?

Every human being is inherently good because they came into existence through the creative power of God.  But there is a battle going on between good and evil.  Evil has the power to hide God from us, but Jesus has the power to save us from evil.

[Leonard James]

Every human being is inherently good because they came into existence through the creative power of God.  But there is a battle going on between good and evil.  Evil has the power to hide God from us, but Jesus has the power to save us from evil.

So we are born good, but if evil hides "God" from us, then we will do no good.

Can't you see how daft that statement is, Alan?

[BashfulAnthony]

Good is good, no matter who does it IMO, no matter what their personal beliefs are.

I dislike the sort of Christianity that thinks the rest of the world doesn't know what good is, or that it has no value because the person doing it doesn't accept Jesus.

It devalues what "good" is, IMO.

Every good thing that makes the world a better place than it was before, deserves recognition.

Rose, I don't recognise these Christian "types" that are rolled out, not in a life-time of mixing amongst the Christian community.  There are obviously a few characters who fit the bill, but most are just ordinary individuals, getting on with their lives, and who happen to be Christian.

[wigginhall]

Incidentally, it's not Calvinist, but Arminian - so-called prevenient grace, meaning preceding (as does 'preventing').  Presumably, our free will is damaged and cannot choose good (or God).  Or, grace is preceded by no merits (cannot be earned).

[Hope]

... and self-will, autonomy, is a real no-no for gods. Just ask Prometheus.

Not sure about Prometheus' situation, but as far as the Christian God is concerned, he wants us to choose to have a relationship with him, not be forced into it by circumstances of nature.  That is perhaps the main difference between said deity and any other.

[Hope]

It sounds rather Calvinist, but I don't know the history of this stuff.  There is similar stuff in the 39 Articles, 'we have no power to do good works pleasant and acceptable to God without the grace of God by Christ preventing us,' (Article X).

Logically, this seems to mean the same, that you cannot originate any good, isn't that Calvinist?  It also suggests that non-Christians cannot do good?

'we have no power to do good works pleasant and acceptable to God without the grace of God by Christ preventing us'  In terms of modern English this makes no sense, so what did it actually mean in the 16th century when it was first put together.  By the way, according to Wikipedia, "First established in 1563, the articles served to define the doctrine of the Church of England as it related to Calvinist doctrine and Roman Catholic practice."

[wigginhall]

It sounds rather Calvinist, but I don't know the history of this stuff.  There is similar stuff in the 39 Articles, 'we have no power to do good works pleasant and acceptable to God without the grace of God by Christ preventing us,' (Article X).

Logically, this seems to mean the same, that you cannot originate any good, isn't that Calvinist?  It also suggests that non-Christians cannot do good?

'we have no power to do good works pleasant and acceptable to God without the grace of God by Christ preventing us'  In terms of modern English this makes no sense, so what did it actually mean in the 16th century when it was first put together.  By the way, according to Wikipedia, "First established in 1563, the articles served to define the doctrine of the Church of England as it related to Calvinist doctrine and Roman Catholic practice."

 

Preventing here means preceding, often termed prevenient grace.  In other words, we cannot choose, as our will is so corrupted, unless divine grace comes to our aid.  As said above, not Calvinist, found in Wesley.

[wigginhall]

There is something similar to these ideas in Buddhism, and some Buddhists draw links with Augustine, and his idea of bondage.  However, in Buddhism, we are not in thrall to sin, but human constructs, such as self and other.  And we don't receive divine grace, but a trans-ego dimension.  And some Zen teachers argue that we don't receive this by our own efforts, but in fact, when those cease, and we let go.  Interesting parallels.

[floo]

... and self-will, autonomy, is a real no-no for gods. Just ask Prometheus.

Not sure about Prometheus' situation, but as far as the Christian God is concerned, he wants us to choose to have a relationship with him, not be forced into it by circumstances of nature.  That is perhaps the main difference between said deity and any other.

Oh come on, there is a threat that if you don't join the deity's club you will be chucked into hell, some choice, if any of that nonsense was factual!

[Walt Zingmatilder]

... and self-will, autonomy, is a real no-no for gods. Just ask Prometheus.

Not sure about Prometheus' situation, but as far as the Christian God is concerned, he wants us to choose to have a relationship with him, not be forced into it by circumstances of nature.  That is perhaps the main difference between said deity and any other.

Oh come on, there is a threat that if you don't join the deity's club you will be chucked into hell, some choice, if any of that nonsense was factual!

I think one chucks themselves into hell in the final dodge from God.

[jjohnjil]

... and self-will, autonomy, is a real no-no for gods. Just ask Prometheus.

Not sure about Prometheus' situation, but as far as the Christian God is concerned, he wants us to choose to have a relationship with him, not be forced into it by circumstances of nature.  That is perhaps the main difference between said deity and any other.

Oh come on, there is a threat that if you don't join the deity's club you will be chucked into hell, some choice, if any of that nonsense was factual!

I think one chucks themselves into hell in the final dodge from God.

Can this callous monster be the same Jesus, meek and mild, who loves us all!  Of course, Hitler loved dogs so who knows.

[Sassy]

This is from Evensong from the Anglican Book of Common Prayer:

ALMIGHTY and most merciful Father, We have erred, and strayed from thy ways like lost sheep, We have followed too much the devices and desires of our own hearts, We have offended against thy holy laws, We have left undone those things which we ought to have done, And we have done those things which we ought not to have done, And there is no health in us: But thou, O Lord, have mercy upon us miserable offenders; Spare thou them, O God, which confess their faults, Restore thou them that are penitent, According to thy promises declared unto mankind in Christ Jesu our Lord: And grant, O most merciful Father, for his sake, That we may hereafter live a godly, righteous, and sober life, To the glory of thy holy Name. Amen.

Is this true? Is there no health in us? Are we all miserable offenders?

It is about spiritual health....

And it is a prayer of confession...
You said you were once a person of faith.
Were you never confirmed or taken Holy Communion?
To be honest I am not sure if you are deliberately ignoring the truths taught or you never were part of the church at all.

The basics are knowing the reason for the prayer above and what it means to be in communion with God.
What faith did you belong to, as no one genuinely who was anglican cannot know the answer to that question.

[Sassy]

BASH and others...

Romans 3:23King James Version (KJV)

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

No believer would have really asked the obvious if they had been a believer and knew their bible...

[Shaker]

You said you were once a person of faith.
Were you never confirmed or taken Holy Communion?
To be honest I am not sure if you are deliberately ignoring the truths taught or you never were part of the church at all.

Ah yes, the old, old ploy - deny that somebody was ever a Christian in the first place rather than concede that people can be Christians and then can give it all up.

[Sassy]

You said you were once a person of faith.
Were you never confirmed or taken Holy Communion?
To be honest I am not sure if you are deliberately ignoring the truths taught or you never were part of the church at all.

Ah yes, the old, old ploy - deny that somebody was ever a Christian in the first place rather than concede that people can be Christians and then can give it all up.

Say what you will... the fact is a Christian or a member of a Christian church would not need to ask such a question they would know.
Just as we know 'the old ploy' bit by the atheist said without ANY foundation and lacking even understanding is a last resort to try and have a dig when you know we are showing it up for what it is... NOT GENUINE.

Because the truth does not alter. Anyone who was a true member of the Church whether a true believer or not would not need to ask that....

As for you... let's face it, your glory seeking days as an atheist are truly over as your last response shows....

No one needed to be a TRUE CHRISTIAN to know the answer to that...

The part you MISSED/ DELIBERATELY OMITTED....

It is about spiritual health....

And it is a prayer of confession...
You said you were once a person of faith.

A prayer of confession... Spiritual health....you are scraping the bottom of the barrell because no one needed to be a true believer to know the answer.  Hence, I said she said she was once a person of faith...

Asked:

Were you never confirmed or taken Holy Communion?
To be honest I am not sure if you are deliberately ignoring the truths taught or you never were part of the church at all.

You see nothing to do with true Christian but a fact that this was about TRUTHS TAUGHT to all and so even not true Christians would know it...

Your slip is showing...

[Rhiannon]

Bit of history: baptised as a baby, confirmed as an adult, Communicant within the CofE for ten years. Studied with the diocesan bishop, took monthly day retreats, took a foundation degree in theology with a Methodist college attached to Oxford Brookes. Served on the PCC and deanery synod. Had articles on prayer and spirituality published in Christian media. Served as parish visitor. Went forward for selection to the priesthood but withdrew when I discovered I was pregnant. Founded and ran inter-denominational services for under-fives and their parents and carers.

Then - poof - all gone.

[floo]

You said you were once a person of faith.
Were you never confirmed or taken Holy Communion?
To be honest I am not sure if you are deliberately ignoring the truths taught or you never were part of the church at all.

Ah yes, the old, old ploy - deny that somebody was ever a Christian in the first place rather than concede that people can be Christians and then can give it all up.

Say what you will... the fact is a Christian or a member of a Christian church would not need to ask such a question they would know.
Just as we know 'the old ploy' bit by the atheist said without ANY foundation and lacking even understanding is a last resort to try and have a dig when you know we are showing it up for what it is... NOT GENUINE.

Because the truth does not alter. Anyone who was a true member of the Church whether a true believer or not would not need to ask that....

As for you... let's face it, your glory seeking days as an atheist are truly over as your last response shows....

No one needed to be a TRUE CHRISTIAN to know the answer to that...

The part you MISSED/ DELIBERATELY OMITTED....

It is about spiritual health....

And it is a prayer of confession...
You said you were once a person of faith.

A prayer of confession... Spiritual health....you are scraping the bottom of the barrell because no one needed to be a true believer to know the answer.  Hence, I said she said she was once a person of faith...

Asked:

Were you never confirmed or taken Holy Communion?
To be honest I am not sure if you are deliberately ignoring the truths taught or you never were part of the church at all.

You see nothing to do with true Christian but a fact that this was about TRUTHS TAUGHT to all and so even not true Christians would know it...

Your slip is showing...