Author Topic: There is no health in us.  (Read 71867 times)

Alien

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Re: There is no health in us.
« Reply #125 on: June 15, 2015, 05:03:09 PM »
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*This 'symbolic' approach of course can go on endlessly, and is very useful if you take an inerrant view of scripture, and you have to explain away  certain passages which appear to have a 'scientific' feel to them.
Which ones would those be, please?

Joshua making the sun stand still,
We could have an interesting discussion on this one...
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Isaiah referring to "the circle (not sphere) of the earth" - that sort of thing.
Why do you think Isaiah is teaching that the Earth is circular here?
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When the findings of science eventually do away with any possibility that such scriptures could have any literal sense to them - just say "It's all symbolic" - and hey presto! the authority of scripture is rescued yet again.
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Well, I don't claim that the Scriptures teach any science. Neither did people like Calvin, who wrote in his commentary on Genesis 1, "He who would learn astronomy and other recondite arts, let him go elsewhere..."

I'm very glad to hear it, and so long as Christians stick with the interpretation of  Genesis simply expressing the idea that God is the source of everything, I've nothing to gripe about. Nonetheless, you yourself have been known to go to extreme lengths to explain what the nature of the Flood may have been.
But my claim on those threads has been that Scripture does not necessarily teach that the Flood was planet-wide. I have argued from Scripture itself, pointing out how the various Hebrew and Greek words are used in Scripture and, on occasion, elsewhere. I have speculated (yes, speculated) what the actual extent might have been, but if you look at my posts I have been boringly consistent in calling it "not planet-wide". I've not even called it "non-global".
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Now this may not be taking the view that Bible actually teaches any science, but your approach certainly takes in modern views of geology and knowledge of the material world to demonstrate that the traditional literal approach is not true.
Oh, yes, I agree with that. On the Flood, it could be taken either way, i.e. planet-wide or not planet-wide, but as I say I have argued from Scripture about the use of the words like eretz and adamah. Bunging in the science as well should surely make it flipping obvious that it was not planet-wide and that it is wrong to insist from Scripture when Scripture itself is ambiguous on its physical extent and the science, honestly looked at, shows it definitely was not planet-wide. If we don't een look at the science, no biblical Christian should insist the Flood was planet-wide when Scripture does not clearly teach it so. My opinion is that a good number of Christians try to insist it was planet-wide because they would otherwise lose "evidence" against an old Earth.
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And this is still to rescue some truth from scripture, rather than saying "I'm afraid this did not happen". It's just a funny old story, trying to make the point that if you do bad things, you'll get it in the neck - and in this respect, the writer of Job (for instance) was much more realistic and sophisticated, since he knew that this simple moral equation was not true.
But Genesis 6-9 teaches more than that. It teaches that a whole civilisation had gone bad and God judged them.
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BashfulAnthony

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Re: There is no health in us.
« Reply #126 on: June 15, 2015, 05:08:07 PM »

Alien,


"But Genesis 6-9 teaches more than that. It teaches that a whole civilisation had gone bad and God judged them."

So, has He stopped judging, because there are far worse things going on now?
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Alien

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Re: There is no health in us.
« Reply #127 on: June 15, 2015, 05:48:12 PM »

Alien,


"But Genesis 6-9 teaches more than that. It teaches that a whole civilisation had gone bad and God judged them."

So, has He stopped judging, because there are far worse things going on now?
Are there? How have you made that comparison? Which specific items are you comparing?
Apparently 99.9975% atheist because I believe in one out of 4000 believed in (an atheist on Facebook). Yes, check the maths as well.

Jack Knave

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Re: There is no health in us.
« Reply #128 on: June 16, 2015, 05:46:28 PM »

Alien,


"But Genesis 6-9 teaches more than that. It teaches that a whole civilisation had gone bad and God judged them."

So, has He stopped judging, because there are far worse things going on now?
They would say not, just that the physical action has been replaced by spiritual stuff, as that is easier to fake than the physical action because it can now be checked out where as people making it up, in those times, generations later couldn't be checked out in those days.

BashfulAnthony

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Re: There is no health in us.
« Reply #129 on: June 16, 2015, 06:02:37 PM »

Alien,


"But Genesis 6-9 teaches more than that. It teaches that a whole civilisation had gone bad and God judged them."

So, has He stopped judging, because there are far worse things going on now?
They would say not, just that the physical action has been replaced by spiritual stuff, as that is easier to fake than the physical action because it can now be checked out where as people making it up, in those times, generations later couldn't be checked out in those days.

It is just another confirmation of my view on the OT representation of God.
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Alien

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Re: There is no health in us.
« Reply #130 on: June 17, 2015, 08:32:12 AM »

Alien,


"But Genesis 6-9 teaches more than that. It teaches that a whole civilisation had gone bad and God judged them."

So, has He stopped judging, because there are far worse things going on now?
They would say not, just that the physical action has been replaced by spiritual stuff, as that is easier to fake than the physical action because it can now be checked out where as people making it up, in those times, generations later couldn't be checked out in those days.
Sorry, I don't understand your point here. Would you please put it in words that I, a man from Norfolk, can understand. Ta.
Apparently 99.9975% atheist because I believe in one out of 4000 believed in (an atheist on Facebook). Yes, check the maths as well.

Spud

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Re: There is no health in us.
« Reply #131 on: June 17, 2015, 01:56:39 PM »

Alien,


"But Genesis 6-9 teaches more than that. It teaches that a whole civilisation had gone bad and God judged them."

So, has He stopped judging, because there are far worse things going on now?

Because of Noah's sacrifice (Genesis 8:20-22) God said he would never again destroy all life by a flood. Interesting, huh.

Spud

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Re: There is no health in us.
« Reply #132 on: June 17, 2015, 02:09:18 PM »
The fact that Origen's approach involved a multi-layered approach to the scriptures, often involving several levels of symbolism*, and the fact that this in turn reflects a long-established rabbinic approach to scripture, does not in itself tell us definitively that that is how the original writer of Genesis 1 intended the original text to be interpreted. We simply cannot know - neither you nor I nor anybody were there looking over the scribe's shoulder and holding daily conversations with him as to what he meant.
Hm, I haven't read about Origen's approach, but because there are two other references to the six day creation (in Exodus 20:10 and 31:17) I would say the author of Exodus probably intended a literal interpretation of Genesis 1.

floo

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Re: There is no health in us.
« Reply #133 on: June 17, 2015, 02:19:49 PM »

Alien,


"But Genesis 6-9 teaches more than that. It teaches that a whole civilisation had gone bad and God judged them."

So, has He stopped judging, because there are far worse things going on now?

Because of Noah's sacrifice (Genesis 8:20-22) God said he would never again destroy all life by a flood. Interesting, huh.

As if there hadn't been enough wholesale slaughter of creatures, human and animal, if the flood myth had any veracity! ::)

Jack Knave

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Re: There is no health in us.
« Reply #134 on: June 17, 2015, 06:43:06 PM »

Alien,


"But Genesis 6-9 teaches more than that. It teaches that a whole civilisation had gone bad and God judged them."

So, has He stopped judging, because there are far worse things going on now?
They would say not, just that the physical action has been replaced by spiritual stuff, as that is easier to fake than the physical action because it can now be checked out where as people making it up, in those times, generations later couldn't be checked out in those days.
Sorry, I don't understand your point here. Would you please put it in words that I, a man from Norfolk, can understand. Ta.
I thought you went to Cambridge? Didn't they teach you English and intellectual understanding there? It's not hard to understand what I'm saying.

Also, didn't they teach you manners either about replying to peoples' posts such as mine on my thread, "What Is God Made From?", post 482

As for my post above it is obvious. Usually these destructions were either natural events which were remembered and passed down through the generations and used, falsely, to show God's actions and judgements or they were simply made up to bolster the leaders' beliefs and to instil fear and awe etc. into the believers; and to brag to other tribes and faiths about how mighty their God was. Basically it was a PR stunt done consciously or unconsciously.

Now, the question I'm asking myself right now is will I get a cogent and intelligent response from Alien...?

Jack Knave

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Re: There is no health in us.
« Reply #135 on: June 17, 2015, 06:55:59 PM »

Alien,


"But Genesis 6-9 teaches more than that. It teaches that a whole civilisation had gone bad and God judged them."

So, has He stopped judging, because there are far worse things going on now?

Because of Noah's sacrifice (Genesis 8:20-22) God said he would never again destroy all life by a flood. Interesting, huh.
Why was God so crass as to use a flood? Why kill off all the animals as they hadn't sinned? Why devastate the land?

Why didn't It use a specific virus that would kill off mankind but give Noah and his family an antidote? Your God doesn't sound to bright or imaginative; very heavy handed!!!

Alien

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Re: There is no health in us.
« Reply #136 on: June 17, 2015, 08:56:34 PM »

Alien,


"But Genesis 6-9 teaches more than that. It teaches that a whole civilisation had gone bad and God judged them."

So, has He stopped judging, because there are far worse things going on now?
They would say not, just that the physical action has been replaced by spiritual stuff, as that is easier to fake than the physical action because it can now be checked out where as people making it up, in those times, generations later couldn't be checked out in those days.
Sorry, I don't understand your point here. Would you please put it in words that I, a man from Norfolk, can understand. Ta.
I thought you went to Cambridge?
Yes, thanks.
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Didn't they teach you English
No, I gave that up after my GCE English Language Grade 1 to continue to study Chemistry, Physics and Maths (with some German for fun) to A and S level then on to Cambridge for my BA in Natural Sciences. Is that what you mean?
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and intellectual understanding there?
Teach me "intellectual understanding"? As in "recognise when a sentence is badly written?
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It's not hard to understand what I'm saying.
Perhaps you don't understand what you yourself wrote?
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Also, didn't they teach you manners either about replying to peoples' posts such as mine on my thread, "What Is God Made From?", post 482
What about it? I have had a busy week and am trying to catch up. That post is a long one and I have restricted myself to short posts while I've been busy. I'll get to your post 482.
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As for my post above it is obvious. Usually these destructions were either natural events which were remembered and passed down through the generations and used, falsely, to show God's actions and judgements or they were simply made up to bolster the leaders' beliefs and to instil fear and awe etc. into the believers; and to brag to other tribes and faiths about how mighty their God was. Basically it was a PR stunt done consciously or unconsciously.
So that is the conclusion you have come to. What is your evidence for this?

Hint - you might be better to say that you see insufficient reason for assigning them to the agency of a God.
Apparently 99.9975% atheist because I believe in one out of 4000 believed in (an atheist on Facebook). Yes, check the maths as well.

Alien

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Re: There is no health in us.
« Reply #137 on: June 17, 2015, 08:57:19 PM »

Alien,


"But Genesis 6-9 teaches more than that. It teaches that a whole civilisation had gone bad and God judged them."

So, has He stopped judging, because there are far worse things going on now?

Because of Noah's sacrifice (Genesis 8:20-22) God said he would never again destroy all life by a flood. Interesting, huh.
Why was God so crass as to use a flood? Why kill off all the animals as they hadn't sinned? Why devastate the land?
Why not?
Apparently 99.9975% atheist because I believe in one out of 4000 believed in (an atheist on Facebook). Yes, check the maths as well.

Shaker

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Re: There is no health in us.
« Reply #138 on: June 17, 2015, 10:20:54 PM »
Ever heard of the concept of overkill?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: There is no health in us.
« Reply #139 on: June 17, 2015, 10:45:11 PM »
Ever heard of the concept of overkill?
How does your dismay at a mass extinction event square with your puzzlement as to why God might be interested in something as cosmically insignificant as life on Earth?

Shaker

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Re: There is no health in us.
« Reply #140 on: June 17, 2015, 11:00:44 PM »
Ever heard of the concept of overkill?
How does your dismay at a mass extinction event square with your puzzlement as to why God might be interested in something as cosmically insignificant as life on Earth?
That's a very good atheistic hypothetical question, Vlad. Well done. Why indeed.

(For the purposes of this post I'm assuming you know what a hypothetical question is).
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Alien

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Re: There is no health in us.
« Reply #141 on: June 18, 2015, 07:51:40 AM »
Ever heard of the concept of overkill?
Yes.
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Leonard James

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Re: There is no health in us.
« Reply #142 on: June 18, 2015, 07:53:19 AM »
Ever heard of the concept of overkill?
Yes.

Well, that is what "God" did with the flood.  :)

Spud

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Re: There is no health in us.
« Reply #143 on: June 18, 2015, 08:44:18 AM »
Why was God so crass as to use a flood? Why kill off all the animals as they hadn't sinned? Why devastate the land?

So that no-one would escape.

BeRational

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Re: There is no health in us.
« Reply #144 on: June 18, 2015, 08:48:19 AM »
Why was God so crass as to use a flood? Why kill off all the animals as they hadn't sinned? Why devastate the land?

So that no-one would escape.

Unless they also had a boat!
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Spud

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Re: There is no health in us.
« Reply #145 on: June 18, 2015, 08:56:54 AM »
Unless they also had a boat!
You win this time!

floo

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Re: There is no health in us.
« Reply #146 on: June 18, 2015, 09:30:25 AM »
Why was God so crass as to use a flood? Why kill off all the animals as they hadn't sinned? Why devastate the land?

So that no-one would escape.

And you think that the deity is good? ::)

Sassy

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Re: There is no health in us.
« Reply #147 on: June 18, 2015, 09:37:53 AM »


And you know all that for a fact do you? GET REAL , Sass! ::)

Of course, I know all that for a fact... but tell me why you question it when you have no idea as to what is fact and isn't when it comes to the bible?

The less than credible is unlikely to be factual where that book is concerned!

Well give us the proof...
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Shaker

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Re: There is no health in us.
« Reply #148 on: June 18, 2015, 10:55:53 AM »
Ever heard of the concept of overkill?
Yes.

So there is the answer to your question "Why not?"
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

floo

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Re: There is no health in us.
« Reply #149 on: June 18, 2015, 11:14:40 AM »


And you know all that for a fact do you? GET REAL , Sass! ::)

Of course, I know all that for a fact... but tell me why you question it when you have no idea as to what is fact and isn't when it comes to the bible?

The less than credible is unlikely to be factual where that book is concerned!

Well give us the proof...

The people who claim less than credible things to be true and factual, as you appear to do, when one can decipher your wordy not very intelligible posts, are the ones who have to provide the proof!
« Last Edit: June 18, 2015, 04:39:17 PM by Floo »