Author Topic: Charles Kennedy and alcohol  (Read 8623 times)

jeremyp

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Charles Kennedy and alcohol
« on: June 06, 2015, 02:29:03 PM »
On the Prayers and Thoughts Board, Floo writes

It is a pity Kennedy gave no thought to his child and continued to drink, therefore committing suicide in effect! >:(

I think a discussion on the subject on that board would be problematic (for once I agree with Vlad), so I have started this thread.

My personal opinion is that it is not as simple to kick the habit as Floo thinks, otherwise he would have done what she suggests.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2015, 02:38:32 PM by jeremyp »
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Shaker

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Re: Charles Kennedy and alcohol
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2015, 02:35:16 PM »
Quite.

Demonstrating all the sensitivity and compassion of the average cauliflower, Floo doesn't seem to be aware that CK was in the grip of an illness over which he had little, if any, control.

Curious that some sort of moral obloquy is visited upon some illnesses - primarily emotional illnesses, addictions and so forth - and not others, as though these are somehow choices that people freely adopt and voluntarily persist in.

I've seen alcohol destroy somebody at a considerably younger age than CK; a highly intelligent, highly skilled man who succeeded in stripping himself of wife, daughter, health, self-respect and sanity along the way before dying of exposure in an alleyway about 250 yards from my house, having passed out, dead drunk before becoming dead, on one of the coldest nights of the year. Yes, he was helped. I know because I was around at the time. It didn't work. Sometimes it doesn't.

Anyway, the point is that if Floo's understanding of alcoholism is anything like her insight into depression, she won't be able to say the same.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2015, 02:41:52 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

floo

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Re: Charles Kennedy and alcohol
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2015, 02:42:30 PM »
If people over indulge in alcohol and then become alcoholics they are responsible for their fate, I have no sympathy for them at all, anymore than I have any sympathy for drug takers! If that makes me hard hearted well so be it. I say what I think; I would feel exactly the same if any of my family misused alcohol or drugs.

Humph Warden Bennett

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Re: Charles Kennedy and alcohol
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2015, 03:15:36 PM »
If people over indulge in alcohol and then become alcoholics they are responsible for their fate, I have no sympathy for them at all, anymore than I have any sympathy for drug takers! If that makes me hard hearted well so be it. I say what I think; I would feel exactly the same if any of my family misused alcohol or drugs.

That is basically saying "They were asking for trouble".

Shaker

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Re: Charles Kennedy and alcohol
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2015, 03:18:01 PM »
That is basically saying "They were asking for trouble".
... and in that case is indistinguishable, in all practical terms, from saying the same of rape victims.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Humph Warden Bennett

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Re: Charles Kennedy and alcohol
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2015, 03:20:45 PM »
That is basically saying "They were asking for trouble".
... and in that case is indistinguishable, in all practical terms, from saying the same of rape victims.

Yep.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Charles Kennedy and alcohol
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2015, 03:31:32 PM »
If people over indulge in alcohol and then become alcoholics they are responsible for their fate, I have no sympathy for them at all, anymore than I have any sympathy for drug takers! If that makes me hard hearted well so be it. I say what I think; I would feel exactly the same if any of my family misused alcohol or drugs.
Nope, not hard hearted at all because that would need you to have the intelligence to be hard hearted

Leonard James

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Re: Charles Kennedy and alcohol
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2015, 04:03:00 PM »
If people over indulge in alcohol and then become alcoholics they are responsible for their fate, I have no sympathy for them at all, anymore than I have any sympathy for drug takers! If that makes me hard hearted well so be it. I say what I think; I would feel exactly the same if any of my family misused alcohol or drugs.
Nope, not hard hearted at all because that would need you to have the intelligence to be hard hearted

You don't need much intelligence to be hardhearted. You don't need the brain of Einstein to club hundreds of baby penguins to death.

Conversely, of course, even the cleverest people can be cruel at times. Josef Mengele was probably clever and well-educated.

People come in all forms, with diverse reactions. It's all part of being human.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Charles Kennedy and alcohol
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2015, 04:11:21 PM »
If people over indulge in alcohol and then become alcoholics they are responsible for their fate, I have no sympathy for them at all, anymore than I have any sympathy for drug takers! If that makes me hard hearted well so be it. I say what I think; I would feel exactly the same if any of my family misused alcohol or drugs.
Nope, not hard hearted at all because that would need you to have the intelligence to be hard hearted

You don't need much intelligence to be hardhearted. You don't need the brain of Einstein to club hundreds of baby penguins to death.

Conversely, of course, even the cleverest people can be cruel at times. Josef Mengele was probably clever and well-educated.

People come in all forms, with diverse reactions. It's all part of being human.

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Rhiannon

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Re: Charles Kennedy and alcohol
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2015, 05:22:36 PM »
Everything I've seen indicates that Kennedy adored his little boy. It's apparent from the writings this week of those who knew him best - Alastair Campbell in particular - that Kennedy didn't want to have a drink problem. He wanted to be ok, for his family. For his son.

And he couldn't be. I don't think anything illustrates clearer the fact that alcoholism is a horrible illness that is terribly hard to beat. I know first-hand what it like to be involved with an alcoholic and the damage it does, but as with any life-threatening illness you have to accept that for some people this disease is too much and they can't be saved.

Shaker

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Re: Charles Kennedy and alcohol
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2015, 05:23:28 PM »
May as well lock the thread now following that post, IMHO.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Charles Kennedy and alcohol
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2015, 05:28:43 PM »
May as well lock the thread now following that post, IMHO.

Yep, nothing else to say that will add and much that will detract.

L.A.

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Re: Charles Kennedy and alcohol
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2015, 07:19:11 AM »
If people over indulge in alcohol and then become alcoholics they are responsible for their fate, I have no sympathy for them at all, anymore than I have any sympathy for drug takers! If that makes me hard hearted well so be it. I say what I think; I would feel exactly the same if any of my family misused alcohol or drugs.

While I firmly believe that we all need to take responsibility for our actions, I think we need some sympathy for those who get it wrong -  there but for grace of God . . . .
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Re: Charles Kennedy and alcohol
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2015, 07:40:59 AM »
If people over indulge in alcohol and then become alcoholics they are responsible for their fate, I have no sympathy for them at all, anymore than I have any sympathy for drug takers! If that makes me hard hearted well so be it. I say what I think; I would feel exactly the same if any of my family misused alcohol or drugs.

Yuck you sound like some of the Christians on this forum.
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BashfulAnthony

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Re: Charles Kennedy and alcohol
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2015, 09:59:25 AM »
If people over indulge in alcohol and then become alcoholics they are responsible for their fate, I have no sympathy for them at all, anymore than I have any sympathy for drug takers! If that makes me hard hearted well so be it. I say what I think; I would feel exactly the same if any of my family misused alcohol or drugs.

So, someone who has an unhealthy life-style, eating the wrong things, and they get cancer, you would have no sympathy?  It would be a question of, "get rid of the cancer:  it's your fault anyway."  No wonder you find it so difficult to accept the Gospel teaching of love. 
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It is my commandment that you love one another."

Aruntraveller

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Re: Charles Kennedy and alcohol
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2015, 12:30:51 PM »
If people over indulge in alcohol and then become alcoholics they are responsible for their fate, I have no sympathy for them at all, anymore than I have any sympathy for drug takers! If that makes me hard hearted well so be it. I say what I think; I would feel exactly the same if any of my family misused alcohol or drugs.

I am finding it difficult to put into words how reprehensible that post is.

As with others on here I have witnessed first hand what alcoholism can do to people - and taking a high handed judgemental stance is not anyway to go about helping them.

I know you don't pray Floo - but I think you had better start, because if any of your family do develop alcoholism you are going to be in a very difficult, lonely place if you don't change your stance.
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Leonard James

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Re: Charles Kennedy and alcohol
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2015, 12:57:01 PM »
If people over indulge in alcohol and then become alcoholics they are responsible for their fate, I have no sympathy for them at all, anymore than I have any sympathy for drug takers! If that makes me hard hearted well so be it. I say what I think; I would feel exactly the same if any of my family misused alcohol or drugs.

I am finding it difficult to put into words how reprehensible that post is.

As with others on here I have witnessed first hand what alcoholism can do to people - and taking a high handed judgemental stance is not anyway to go about helping them.

I know you don't pray Floo - but I think you had better start, because if any of your family do develop alcoholism you are going to be in a very difficult, lonely place if you don't change your stance.

Yes, it's a bit like telling somebody suffering from depression to "pull themselves together".

Help is what is needed, not reprimands. I'm perfectly sure that Floo would rally round if the occasion arose.

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Charles Kennedy and alcohol
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2015, 01:09:34 PM »
If people over indulge in alcohol and then become alcoholics they are responsible for their fate, I have no sympathy for them at all, anymore than I have any sympathy for drug takers! If that makes me hard hearted well so be it. I say what I think; I would feel exactly the same if any of my family misused alcohol or drugs.


It is blindingly obvious that you have no sympathy with almost anyone or anything;  but to be hardened to people suffering from health problems like alcoholism, is pure ignorance.  People don't choose to be ill and in desperate conditions.  I once read that an alcoholic never defeats the addiction, he/she simply learns to control it.. What a way to have to live your life!
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Shaker

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Re: Charles Kennedy and alcohol
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2015, 01:27:35 PM »
It is blindingly obvious that you have no sympathy with almost anyone or anything;  but to be hardened to people suffering from health problems like alcoholism, is pure ignorance.  People don't choose to be ill and in desperate conditions.  I once read that an alcoholic never defeats the addiction, he/she simply learns to control it.. What a way to have to live your life!
A highly dubious proposition to say the very least. It's the disease model of alcoholism as peddled (principally) by AA, which essentially consists of the mantra "Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic," meaning that you're still an alcoholic when you're not drinking - you're a (currently) non-drinking alcoholic, always sick, always ready to slip back into the old ways. As you say, what a way to have to live your life.

It's not actually clear that you have to, though. Quite a few months back I came across some statistics which - to my great surprise - revealed how high a proportion of heavy drinkers and alcoholics (a) stopped abusing alcohol of their own accord, without any outside help and/or (b) continued to drink at moderate, medically safe social levels. It was some time ago; I can't now remember where I saw these figures and can't remember the exact numbers, but it was a surprisingly high figure. AA has cornered the public imagination with their disease model of alcoholism (sadly for a great many people); it's one of those widespread things that you hear people in society generally say without knowing that it's only the opinion of one particular group. It's a bit like the way that people often trot out "You're Jewish if you have a Jewish mother," not knowing that that matrilineal principle only applies to Orthodox Judaism. (Liberal forms of Judaism consider you Jewish if either parent is). But it's very far indeed from being the whole story.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2015, 01:31:08 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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Re: Charles Kennedy and alcohol
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2015, 01:30:26 PM »
I wonder about smoking - I regard myself as an ex-smoker, not a smoker who currently doesn't smoke. I haven't smoked for over 25 yrs now.

Rhiannon

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Re: Charles Kennedy and alcohol
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2015, 01:31:13 PM »
If people over indulge in alcohol and then become alcoholics they are responsible for their fate, I have no sympathy for them at all, anymore than I have any sympathy for drug takers! If that makes me hard hearted well so be it. I say what I think; I would feel exactly the same if any of my family misused alcohol or drugs.


It is blindingly obvious that you have no sympathy with almost anyone or anything;  but to be hardened to people suffering from health problems like alcoholism, is pure ignorance.  People don't choose to be ill and in desperate conditions.  I once read that an alcoholic never defeats the addiction, he/she simply learns to control it.. What a way to have to live your life!

To be fair, BA, Floo was terribly worried about you when you lost Rusty.

Shaker

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Re: Charles Kennedy and alcohol
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2015, 01:32:13 PM »
I wonder about smoking - I regard myself as an ex-smoker, not a smoker who currently doesn't smoke. I haven't smoked for over 25 yrs now.
Exactly - I gave up smoking 14 years ago (Saturday August 4th 2001 ... about lunchtime  :D ), eating meat 22 years ago but don't label myself as a currently non-smoking smoker or a currently non-meat-eating omnivore. It's very peculiar.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Shaker

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Re: Charles Kennedy and alcohol
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2015, 01:34:06 PM »
If people over indulge in alcohol and then become alcoholics they are responsible for their fate, I have no sympathy for them at all, anymore than I have any sympathy for drug takers! If that makes me hard hearted well so be it. I say what I think; I would feel exactly the same if any of my family misused alcohol or drugs.


It is blindingly obvious that you have no sympathy with almost anyone or anything;  but to be hardened to people suffering from health problems like alcoholism, is pure ignorance.  People don't choose to be ill and in desperate conditions.  I once read that an alcoholic never defeats the addiction, he/she simply learns to control it.. What a way to have to live your life!

To be fair, BA, Floo was terribly worried about you when you lost Rusty.
... and similarly when you've had worrying health scares, as I recall. Not intending to go into detail as these are personal matters.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Charles Kennedy and alcohol
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2015, 01:43:01 PM »
I think the issue with alcohol, more than cigarettes or meat eating, is that the consumption of alcohol has an immediate effect on one's ability to make choices and one's rationality.

Rhiannon

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Re: Charles Kennedy and alcohol
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2015, 03:00:52 PM »
Yes, I believe it is disputed as to whether it's safe for an alcoholic to ever touch a drink again - it doesn't take much for ones judgement to be lost. I had a friend who enjoyed the odd glass of wine post-addiction - whether he's still ok or not I don't know. Which is why I think AA have the message that you never stop being an addict - it probably acts as some kind of psychological brake.