English language ...a mess?!

[Sriram]

Hi everyone,

Here is an interesting article about the english language and its many ....complexities. 

http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20150605-your-language-is-sinful

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Dearest creature in creation
Studying English pronunciation,
I will teach you in my verse
Sounds like corpse, corps, horse and worse.

In its fullest version, the poem runs through about 800 of the most vexing spelling inconsistencies in English. Eight hundred.

Attempting to spell in English is like playing one of those computer games where, no matter what, you will lose eventually. If some evil mage has performed vile magic on our tongue, he should be bunged into gaol for his nefarious goal (and if you still need convincing of how inconsistent English pronunciation is, just read that last sentence out loud). But no, our spelling came to be a capricious mess for entirely human reasons.

So what happened with English? It’s a story of invasions, thefts, sloth, caprice, mistakes, pride and the inexorable juggernaut of change. In its broadest strokes, these problems come down to people – including you and me, dear readers – being greedy, lazy and snobbish.

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Cheers.

Sriram

[Rhiannon]

My daughter commented only a day or two ago that she's relieved English is her first language - she thinks learning it as a second would be a nightmare.

[ad_orientem]

I tead that article this morning. Interesting but I think it's one of the things I love about the English languague. Of course languague evolves but I hope the quirkiness of English never changes.

[trippymonkey]

I tead that article this morning. Interesting but I think it's one of the things I love about the English languague. Of course languague evolves but I hope the quirkiness of English never changes.

It would help if your typing skills improved though ?!!?!? LOL

What I hate is stuff like calling women or a group with women in it all GUYS !!!! AAGGGHHHHH A guy is a man !!!

Only last night on Naturewatch did Ian, I think it's Ian, said a bird had been RUNG instead of RINGED, ie putting a ring on its leg & not just given it a call on his mobile !!!!!

I'll be adding to this as we go along....
Bahut Dhanyavad Sriram bhai !!!
Nick

[trippymonkey]

Rose
If it's a man YES but calling a girl or a woman a guy ?!?!?!?

[ad_orientem]

It would help if your typing skills improved though ?!!?!? LOL

Sausage fingers, smartphone, and not bothering to double check equals plenty of typos.

[Rhiannon]

'Guys' is awful. It reminds me of Rob Brydon talking about how middle-class parents refer to their children as 'guys', as in, 'do you guys want to help with the washing up?' It's fake friendly, fake cool.

Both my girls and myself call my son 'mate'. He likes it.

I like 'chaps' for a group, even though 'chaps' are definitely supposed to be men. 'Gang' is almost as awful as 'guys', and I don't like 'guys and girls' either - I'm not eight.

[Aruntraveller]

I dislike either 'guys' or 'mate' for children.

It just sounds wrong. They are your children - not your mates. One of my work colleagues uses mate for her boys - I cringe everytime she does.

Why can't pepole just use the names they gave their children - instead of pretending to be down with the kids.

FFS.

[Rhiannon]

My boy's been 'mate' to us since he was a toddler. I'm not trying to be 'down' with the kids, it's just a term of endearment.

If I were trying to be cool I'd be calling him 'dude'. 'Mate' isn't remotely cool.

I think most people use terms of endearment for their kids - over the years my girls have been 'poppet', 'sweet pea', 'girlie' etc. 'Mate' has stuck for my boy.

[Aruntraveller]

My boy's been 'mate' to us since he was a toddler. I'm not trying to be 'down' with the kids, it's just a term of endearment.

If I were trying to be cool I'd be calling him 'dude'. 'Mate' isn't remotely cool.

I think most people use terms of endearment for their kids - over the years my girls have been 'poppet', 'sweet pea', 'girlie' etc. 'Mate' has stuck for my boy.

Fair enough - but it still sounds wrong to me. Maybe it's an age thing. Or I'm just grumpy. I do have other friends who use 'dude' which also makes me cringe.

Use their given names!

Anyway I fear we are straying a little too far from the OP.

English is a difficult language - but here is the contradiction - a hugely successful language. Partly due to historical influences - but also due to it's inherent flexibility. That flexibilty does have it's price - which is the aforementioned difficulties with pronounciation, spelling and grammar.

[Rhiannon]

At least I don't call him 'junior'.

Where I grew up 'mate' doesn't just refer to friends. For example, a bloke on a market stall will call a male customer 'mate' - and a female one 'darling'. Lots of people serving in shops and restaurants refer to customers as 'love'.

As for calling my kids by their given names, I think that is unusual within families - most parents have pet names of one kind or another for their children.

'Dude' is awful though. And my son has started saying 'yo, bro.'   

[Rhiannon]

Rather sadly I got the impression as a child that English was a dull language compared to others. It's only as I've got older that I appreciate how rich it is. And I like its idiosyncrasies and annoyances. Recently I read that apostrophes serve no purpose - yes they bloody do. Can there be anything more satisfying than a beautifully placed apostrophe? Autocorrect on Apple keep putting in apostrophes for me where they don't belong, it drives me nuts  - although I do try to go back and sort them I'm sure a few stray through from time to time.

[ekim]

At least I don't call him 'junior'.

Where I grew up 'mate' doesn't just refer to friends. For example, a bloke on a market stall will call a male customer 'mate' - and a female one 'darling'. Lots of people serving in shops and restaurants refer to customers as 'love'.

As for calling my kids by their given names, I think that is unusual within families - most parents have pet names of one kind or another for their children.

'Dude' is awful though. And my son has started saying 'yo, bro.'   

My parents only seemed to use my given name when they were about to tell me off.

[Harrowby Hall]

At its heart, English is almost two seperate languages, old German and Norman French. Vocabularies exist from both sources side-by-side. The German roots provide us with a language which is grammatically simple, Norman French with a multiple-syllabic vocabulary with often seems pompous. There was, of course, a social divide between the two language systems with the lower orders using the German base.

It is possible, in English, to express the same idea in both language bases - eg:

Derived from Norman French:       Meretricious  sesquipedalianism
Derived from Old German:            Bullshit baffles brains

Modern English is characterised by being grammatically simple, etymologically complex and semantically flexible.

As far as its spelling is concerned - there is no strong link between phonemes and graphemes. There have been attempts to re-order this. At one level, Noah Webster tried to do this with his dictionary - in contrast to Dr Johnson who tried to retain the eccentricities of spelling in his. George Bernard Shaw campaigned for the rationalisation of English spelling.

A few decades ago, school children were being taught to read using the Initial Teaching Alphabet - in which, I think, there were graphemic representations of 45 phonemes. It fell into disuse without ever really being evaluated - there was resistance from parents, teachers had to be appropriately retrained and children had to be "weaned" onto traditional orthography after they have become comptetent with ITA.

One of the promoters of a new orthography was Sir James Pitman, of the Pitman shorthand family. I don't do shorthand but I believe that it involves a fairly close association between phoneme and the shorthand graphemes.

[Harrowby Hall]

 Recently I read that apostrophes serve no purpose - yes they bloody do. Can there be anything more satisfying than a beautifully placed apostrophe? Autocorrect on Apple keep putting in apostrophes for me where they don't belong, it drives me nuts  - although I do try to go back and sort them I'm sure a few stray through from time to time.

The apostrophe serves one purpose and one purpose only:

it indicates elision - there is a letter or a sound missing.

Best example in English: "it's" short for "it is" - the missing "i" is indicated by a the apostrophe. As opposed to "its" which means belong to "it".

Confusion is caused by its use in the genitive form of nouns. In Anglo-Saxon (I believe) the genitive form of John would have been something like "Johnses" this has been elided into John's.

Is there a special educational institution where shopkeepers, mainly greengrocers, are taught exotic linguistic uses such as "potatoe" and "potato's"?

[Shaker]

 Recently I read that apostrophes serve no purpose - yes they bloody do. Can there be anything more satisfying than a beautifully placed apostrophe? Autocorrect on Apple keep putting in apostrophes for me where they don't belong, it drives me nuts  - although I do try to go back and sort them I'm sure a few stray through from time to time.

The apostrophe serves one purpose and one purpose only:

it indicates elision - there is a letter or a sound missing.

Best example in English: "it's" short for "it is" - the missing "i" is indicated by a the apostrophe. As opposed to "its" which means belong to "it".

Confusion is caused by its use in the genitive form of nouns. In Anglo-Saxon (I believe) the genitive form of John would have been something like "Johnses" this has been elided into John's.

Nearly - it was 'his.' So, for example, what would have been 'Master Chaucer his book' (meaning the book belonging to Chaucer) was elided in rapid speech to 'Chaucer's book' - exactly as you say, that apostrophe indicating the elision of the full word 'his.'

[ippy]

My boy's been 'mate' to us since he was a toddler. I'm not trying to be 'down' with the kids, it's just a term of endearment.

If I were trying to be cool I'd be calling him 'dude'. 'Mate' isn't remotely cool.

I think most people use terms of endearment for their kids - over the years my girls have been 'poppet', 'sweet pea', 'girlie' etc. 'Mate' has stuck for my boy.

How about where people use the word brainwashed when they plainly mean indoctrinated?

ippy

[Ricky Spanish]

Like Leonard does?

[Rhiannon]

My boy's been 'mate' to us since he was a toddler. I'm not trying to be 'down' with the kids, it's just a term of endearment.

If I were trying to be cool I'd be calling him 'dude'. 'Mate' isn't remotely cool.

I think most people use terms of endearment for their kids - over the years my girls have been 'poppet', 'sweet pea', 'girlie' etc. 'Mate' has stuck for my boy.

How about where people use the word brainwashed when they plainly mean indoctrinated?

ippy

How is that relevant to pet names for children?

[ippy]

My boy's been 'mate' to us since he was a toddler. I'm not trying to be 'down' with the kids, it's just a term of endearment.

If I were trying to be cool I'd be calling him 'dude'. 'Mate' isn't remotely cool.

I think most people use terms of endearment for their kids - over the years my girls have been 'poppet', 'sweet pea', 'girlie' etc. 'Mate' has stuck for my boy.

How about where people use the word brainwashed when they plainly mean indoctrinated?

ippy

How is that relevant to pet names for children?

It' relevant to the OP; How is the OP relevant to pet names for children?

How about now where a good sounding radio CD player in a car is often referred to as a stereo, before stereo broadcasts pre 1961 we didn't say, there's a good mono in my car, yet it would have made as much sense as the misuse we have now of the two words "a stereo".

ippy

PS could be a wind up, radio.

ippy

[Ricky Spanish]

Did you have a wireless instead?

[Harrowby Hall]

Did you have a wireless instead?

Interesting. Wireless is now a connection system for computers and home entertainment.

Language  certainly doesn't stand still, does it!

[ippy]

Did you have a wireless instead?

Arrbut!!!

ippy

[BashfulAnthony]

The English language is rich and wonderful:  that's why it is so current around the world, innit!

[Sebastian Toe]

The English language is rich and wonderful: 

All of it?