Author Topic: English language ...a mess?!  (Read 18772 times)

jeremyp

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #25 on: June 09, 2015, 07:35:28 PM »

Only last night on Naturewatch did Ian, I think it's Ian, said a bird had been RUNG instead of RINGED, ie putting a ring on its leg & not just given it a call on his mobile !!!!!


Maybe he meant "wrung"?
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jeremyp

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #26 on: June 09, 2015, 07:41:35 PM »

A few decades ago, school children were being taught to read using the Initial Teaching Alphabet - in which, I think, there were graphemic representations of 45 phonemes. It fell into disuse without ever really being evaluated - there was resistance from parents, teachers had to be appropriately retrained and children had to be "weaned" onto traditional orthography after they have become comptetent with ITA.


I was one of them, it was a stupid idea. 
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trippymonkey

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #27 on: June 09, 2015, 10:40:31 PM »

Only last night on Naturewatch did Ian, I think it's Ian, said a bird had been RUNG instead of RINGED, ie putting a ring on its leg & not just given it a call on his mobile !!!!!


Maybe he meant "wrung"?

No as the context was about 'ringing' birds' legs & not wringing their necks ?!!?!?

Owlswing

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #28 on: June 10, 2015, 10:47:49 AM »
I tead that article this morning. Interesting but I think it's one of the things I love about the English languague. Of course languague evolves but I hope the quirkiness of English never changes.

It would, of course, make your posts on this thread far more interesting if you actually learned to spell the words in the English language - I suggest that you re-read your posts before hitting the "post" button.

Alternatively you could write your posts as a Word document, spell-check it, making sure that the spell-checker is set to "English U.K.", and then copying and pasting it into the relevant thread.

Of course, a lot of the anomalies in our language are due to the number of times this island has been invaded and the number of countries that were parts af the old British Empire from which bits and pieces have been imported.

One of my pet hates is the idea of there being "American English", thank you Mr Webster! There is no such thing as "American English" - there is only English and the version of English used by those across the Atlantic who are too lazy and ignorant to speak it and spell it as it should be. 
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Udayana

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #29 on: June 10, 2015, 11:02:01 AM »
Americans could easily argue that their version is English "as it should be".
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Harrowby Hall

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Re: The English language is wonderful.
« Reply #30 on: June 10, 2015, 12:05:02 PM »


The English language is rich and wonderful: 

All of it? :-\

Yes, all of it. A language exists only in its entire state.
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ad_orientem

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2015, 12:30:08 PM »
Americans could easily argue that their version is English "as it should be".

Americans should be forced to speak and write English English. They don't speak proper English like what we do!
« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 12:31:53 PM by ad_orientem »
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Owlswing

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2015, 03:24:02 PM »
Americans could easily argue that their version is English "as it should be".
Not only can, they do. Goddess forbid that ANY American should ever be proved wrong in anything.

We were speaking English long before the Pilgrim Fathers took it to America so, NO, their version cannot be "as it should be"!
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Harrowby Hall

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2015, 04:09:28 PM »
Americans could easily argue that their version is English "as it should be".
Not only can, they do. Goddess forbid that ANY American should ever be proved wrong in anything.

We were speaking English long before the Pilgrim Fathers took it to America so, NO, their version cannot be "as it should be"!

In some respects they are still speaking the English that the Pilgrim Fathers used. The "generic" American accent (if such a thing can be imagined) is believed by some people to be similar to the accent spoken a few hundred years ago in the West Country. The past participles of to get and to dive - gotten and dove are archaic English usages.
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Udayana

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2015, 04:44:10 PM »
Yes, both have diverged from a common root - but even then there were different versions and accents in England - which also influenced  different American colonies depending on the origin of the immigrants (settlers).
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Harrowby Hall

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2015, 05:21:08 PM »
There are aspects of American English which I like very much - their ability to express situations in a very visual way like leaning over backwards and rubbernecking.

An American linguistic habit I deplore is that of using nouns as verbs. A particularly horrible example of that practice is by Patricia Cornwell: To receipt as in I receipted the gun to the officer. (Several times in Port Mortuary - I made the mistake of reading this from cover to cover. In doing so I squandered time that I shall never be able to recover. It is dire.)
« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 08:31:46 PM by Harrowby Hall »
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Owlswing

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #36 on: June 10, 2015, 05:31:18 PM »
There are aspects of American English which I like very much - their ability to express situations in a very visual way like leaning over backwards and rubbernecking.

An American linguistic habit I deplore is that of using verbs as nouns. A particularly horrible example of that practice is by Patricia Cornwell: To receipt as in I receipted the gun to the officer. (Several times in Port Mortuary - I made the mistake of reading this from cover to cover. In doing so I squandered time that I shall never be able to recover. It is dire.)

To net - score a goal

To medal - to come first por second or third

etc

HORRIFIC!
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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #37 on: June 10, 2015, 06:10:52 PM »
Wow! I can assure you that my Yankee relatives don't write that way nor talk that way. "I receipted the gun to the officer." No, a Yankee would write, I gave the gun to the cop.  But I liked listing to mom and her Yankee pronunciations of some words. But please check out the outrageous English language of the Newfie. And I have a Newfie wedding to attend in August. I won't understand anything said to me but that's just as well.

Harrowby Hall

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #38 on: June 10, 2015, 08:24:32 PM »
Wow! I can assure you that my Yankee relatives don't write that way nor talk that way. "I receipted the gun to the officer." No, a Yankee would write, I gave the gun to the cop.  But I liked listing to mom and her Yankee pronunciations of some words. But please check out the outrageous English language of the Newfie. And I have a Newfie wedding to attend in August. I won't understand anything said to me but that's just as well.

I don't care what you can - or cannot - assure me. Your Yankee relatives have nothing to do with this. I have no interest in the accent used by inhabitants of Newfoundland. This thread is about the idiosyncrasies of the English language and we have strayed into differences between English and American usage and the American practice of forming verbs from nouns.

I suggest that you go to a bookstore and purchase Port Mortuary by Patricia Cornwell. It is a novel. Then you have to do the difficult bit: you have to read it all the way through, from cover to cover. This is difficult - not just for you but for anybody - the novel is so turgid and poorly written.

You will find the particular construction I have described more than once.

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Nearly Sane

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #39 on: June 10, 2015, 08:57:01 PM »
The last Patricia Cornwell I read was free from a hotel library I was staying at. I was ripped off

Owlswing

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #40 on: June 11, 2015, 09:12:01 AM »
Wow! I can assure you that my Yankee relatives don't write that way nor talk that way. "I receipted the gun to the officer." No, a Yankee would write, I gave the gun to the cop.  But I liked listing to mom and her Yankee pronunciations of some words. But please check out the outrageous English language of the Newfie. And I have a Newfie wedding to attend in August. I won't understand anything said to me but that's just as well.

This thread is about the idiosyncrasies of the English language and we have strayed into differences between English and American usage and the American practice of forming verbs from nouns.

The reason that Americanisms have entered this thread is quite simply because Americans insist that what they speak IS English.

Your comment makes it abundantly clear that, even to you, they do not! And thus when discissing American usage of the English language we are in fact, discussing its misuse.
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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #41 on: June 11, 2015, 09:37:00 AM »
There are aspects of American English which I like very much - their ability to express situations in a very visual way like leaning over backwards and rubbernecking.

An American linguistic habit I deplore is that of using verbs as nouns. A particularly horrible example of that practice is by Patricia Cornwell: To receipt as in I receipted the gun to the officer. (Several times in Port Mortuary - I made the mistake of reading this from cover to cover. In doing so I squandered time that I shall never be able to recover. It is dire.)

To net - score a goal

To medal - to come first por second or third

etc

HORRIFIC!

'To medal' is nauseatingly awful. I find watching interviews with athletes at big championships barely possible because of it. And they use it like they are being really 'cool'. Ew.

Rhiannon

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #42 on: June 11, 2015, 09:37:48 AM »
The last Patricia Cornwell I read was free from a hotel library I was staying at. I was ripped off

Stupid woman.

http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/jonathanjonesblog/2013/dec/03/walter-sickert-jack-ripper-sex-evil

Harrowby Hall

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #43 on: June 11, 2015, 09:41:50 AM »
Wow! I can assure you that my Yankee relatives don't write that way nor talk that way. "I receipted the gun to the officer." No, a Yankee would write, I gave the gun to the cop.  But I liked listing to mom and her Yankee pronunciations of some words. But please check out the outrageous English language of the Newfie. And I have a Newfie wedding to attend in August. I won't understand anything said to me but that's just as well.

This thread is about the idiosyncrasies of the English language and we have strayed into differences between English and American usage and the American practice of forming verbs from nouns.

The reason that Americanisms have entered this thread is quite simply because Americans insist that what they speak IS English.

Your comment makes it abundantly clear that, even to you, they do not! And thus when discissing American usage of the English language we are in fact, discussing its misuse.

By what peculiarities of what passes in your mind for logic have you arrived at this conclusion? I am talking about differences in usage not misuse.

The fact that I do not like a particular usage does not make it misuse.
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ippy

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #44 on: June 11, 2015, 11:56:49 AM »
If you're English try to not laugh out loud if you hear an American pronounce "agoraphobia".

ippy

Udayana

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #45 on: June 11, 2015, 01:15:58 PM »
The point is .. that English does not have, and never has had, a final, "fixed" form. This is one of the reasons why it has been successful but also why it has all the complexities indicated in the OP. You can invent new words, spelling and grammar as needed without having to have it passed by a committee.
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Alien

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #46 on: June 11, 2015, 01:21:34 PM »

Only last night on Naturewatch did Ian, I think it's Ian, said a bird had been RUNG instead of RINGED, ie putting a ring on its leg & not just given it a call on his mobile !!!!!


Maybe he meant "wrung"?
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Alien

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #47 on: June 11, 2015, 01:23:24 PM »
Americans could easily argue that their version is English "as it should be".
Not only can, they do. Goddess forbid that ANY American should ever be proved wrong in anything.

We were speaking English long before the Pilgrim Fathers took it to America so, NO, their version cannot be "as it should be"!

In some respects they are still speaking the English that the Pilgrim Fathers used. The "generic" American accent (if such a thing can be imagined) is believed by some people to be similar to the accent spoken a few hundred years ago in the West Country. The past participles of to get and to dive - gotten and dove are archaic English usages.
And "color". I seem to remember a plaque in Canterbury Cathedral remembering something military with "colors" written on it.
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Alien

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #48 on: June 11, 2015, 01:26:17 PM »
The point is .. that English does not have, and never has had, a final, "fixed" form. This is one of the reasons why it has been successful but also why it has all the complexities indicated in the OP. You can invent new words, spelling and grammar as needed without having to have it passed by a committee.
Agreed. The French are right to have a committee to protect the French language since it is under assault from English words. Heck, they even have to import Canadian French words like "Cheferie" in an attempt to stop people using "leadership".
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