Author Topic: English language ...a mess?!  (Read 18767 times)

OH MY WORLD!

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #50 on: June 11, 2015, 02:50:26 PM »
Harrow,
If you think Yankees speak like that author writes then you know nothing about how Americans speak. That's a fact. And just to burst the resident witch's bubble. Matty, You Brits don't own nor are you the authorities on good English.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxUm-2x-2dM

OH MY WORLD!

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #51 on: June 11, 2015, 03:02:50 PM »
"Bad English pronunciation..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snt2OyU8pto

ippy

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #52 on: June 11, 2015, 04:13:11 PM »
Americans could easily argue that their version is English "as it should be".
Not only can, they do. Goddess forbid that ANY American should ever be proved wrong in anything.

We were speaking English long before the Pilgrim Fathers took it to America so, NO, their version cannot be "as it should be"!

In some respects they are still speaking the English that the Pilgrim Fathers used. The "generic" American accent (if such a thing can be imagined) is believed by some people to be similar to the accent spoken a few hundred years ago in the West Country. The past participles of to get and to dive - gotten and dove are archaic English usages.

You can find reference to this in Bill Bryson's book "Made in America", sounds about right it's probably true in a lot of cases, it makes sense to me.

The American accent is supposed to be a mix of West Country and Norfolk accents, I'm quite familiar with the East Anglian accents, founding fathers and all of that and it does add up for me when I listen to the American accent.

ippy 

ippy

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #53 on: June 11, 2015, 04:29:14 PM »
"Bad English pronunciation..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snt2OyU8pto

Both brilliant Woody, do you know the difference between a Buffalo and a Bison, no, you can wash your hands in a bison, catering for about 12 years of age the same age group as your very silly but very funny links. 

ippy

PS Yes my sense of humour didn't develop at all after the age of about twelve, I'll put my hands up to that.



OH MY WORLD!

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #54 on: June 11, 2015, 04:52:12 PM »
Oh good grief Ippy, you think you have a sense of humour.

Sebastian Toe

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #55 on: June 11, 2015, 05:00:31 PM »
Pet hates:

1) The car broke (rather than "braked").

My car broke, it cost £345 plus VAT to fix. (I hated that!)

2) Fred, Dave and myself are going to the pub.
Why? Are Fred and Dave bad company or is it a crappy pub?
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Nearly Sane

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #56 on: June 11, 2015, 05:26:38 PM »
Pet hates:

1) The car broke (rather than "braked").

My car broke, it cost £345 plus VAT to fix. (I hated that!)

2) Fred, Dave and myself are going to the pub.
Why? Are Fred and Dave bad company or is it a crappy pub?

They don't understand supernaturalistic probability

ippy

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #57 on: June 12, 2015, 09:40:57 AM »
Oh good grief Ippy, you think you have a sense of humour.

I often respond to your posts Woody.

ippy

richie

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #58 on: June 13, 2015, 04:10:09 PM »
The difficulties around pronouncing English correctly has been brought home to me by my kids. They attend Welsh language school so although they are 1st language English speakers they are not 1st language English readers. Watching them sound out English words brings home just how hard it is sometimes to work out whats going on unless you know the 'rule book'.

As a 1st language English speaker and reader taught in the 80's I was taught by rote, so words are said 'so' just because they are not because there is rule behind the reason so watching my kids work it out has been an eye-opener in that regard.

As to pet names, the youngest is 'little man'
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Harrowby Hall

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #59 on: June 13, 2015, 07:39:01 PM »
A long time ago, one of my teachers was Max Coltheart - who was one of the leading researchers into linguistic cognitive science in the world. If I recall correctly, he suggested that languages varied according to their graphemic-morphemic transparency - essentially the reliability of written letters and vocal sounds having a uniform relationship.

A highly transparent language would have a very high correspondence between letters and sounds. English (and French) have low transparency, Italian has high transparency. (Again, if I recall correctly) it was postulated that some forms of dyslexia may be more common in low transparency than high transparency languages.

I believe that Welsh has a fairly high level of transparency - so someone whose first spoken language was English but first written language was Welsh would have extraordinary problems adapting to the orthography of English.

There have been debates and disputes among academics about the effectiveness of different methods of teaching children to read, but I think that prescriptive politicians have known better and enforced reading schemes onto teachers. One of the most prescriptive was David Blunkett, who, being blind, was in an admirable position to impose his expert views on teachers.
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jeremyp

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #60 on: June 14, 2015, 02:07:41 AM »

Only last night on Naturewatch did Ian, I think it's Ian, said a bird had been RUNG instead of RINGED, ie putting a ring on its leg & not just given it a call on his mobile !!!!!


Maybe he meant "wrung"?

No as the context was about 'ringing' birds' legs & not wringing their necks ?!!?!?

Woooosh!
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jeremyp

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #61 on: June 14, 2015, 02:08:29 AM »
Americans could easily argue that their version is English "as it should be".

They have a good case that their version is the more pure.
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Red Giant

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #62 on: June 14, 2015, 07:51:47 AM »
Americans could easily argue that their version is English "as it should be".

They have a good case that their version is the more pure.
I think they have a lot more innovations than archaisms, though the archaisms are more noticeable.

But then again, I don't think pure is a good thing.  Nothing says the old way is the best way or the right way.



Maeght

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #63 on: June 14, 2015, 07:59:24 AM »

The past participles of to get and to dive - gotten and dove are archaic English usages.

I thought that was true of gotten but not dove which is more recent. When I here people using dove instead of dived it sounds very odd to me. And, since we're on the subject, why is it pronounced differently from the bird?

Red Giant

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #64 on: June 14, 2015, 08:20:08 AM »
A long time ago, one of my teachers was Max Coltheart - who was one of the leading researchers into linguistic cognitive science in the world. If I recall correctly, he suggested that languages varied according to their graphemic-morphemic transparency - essentially the reliability of written letters and vocal sounds having a uniform relationship.
Pronunciation varies and evolves continually.  There's no way to keep it in sync with spelling.  Phonetically spelt languages are either
-- languages that have only been written (or written in the current alphabet) in recent times, or
-- dead languages that have stopped evolving.

Luther had big problems trying to produce a pan-German Bible.  Many people were mystified by his chosen spellings, which seemed to have little resemblance to the way they spoke in their part of Germany.  German is only phonetic to those who pronounce it as spelt, which is artificial.

In English, most of us (except Burns) haven't yet realised that we speak one language and write a different language, though in many countries that's the first thing you have to understand, because the difference between the local dialect and the national standard is too big to be glossed over.

Red Giant

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #65 on: June 14, 2015, 08:41:40 AM »

The past participles of to get and to dive - gotten and dove are archaic English usages.

I thought that was true of gotten but not dove which is more recent. When I here people using dove instead of dived it sounds very odd to me. And, since we're on the subject, why is it pronounced differently from the bird?
Why is the bird spelt the same as the verb?  Dove, love, glove are anomalous spellings, but so are have, give, live.  (Logically we'd write "liv for today", but "live wire".)

Generally, English doesn't like to end a word with a v, so it sticks an e on the end for no good reason.  This is probably because Latin never ends a word with a consonantal u/v. 
 

Harrowby Hall

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #66 on: June 14, 2015, 09:25:42 AM »


Generally, English doesn't like to end a word with a v, so it sticks an e on the end for no good reason.  This is probably because Latin never ends a word with a consonantal u/v.

The influence of Latin on English is generally greatly over-stated.

Etymologically love, glove and dove all originate from the German roots of English.
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Red Giant

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #67 on: June 14, 2015, 10:05:32 AM »


Generally, English doesn't like to end a word with a v, so it sticks an e on the end for no good reason.  This is probably because Latin never ends a word with a consonantal u/v.

The influence of Latin on English is generally greatly over-stated.

Etymologically love, glove and dove all originate from the German roots of English.
What I meant was, the people who invented spelling and grammar rules were often over-influenced by Latin.

They also made up the one about a preposition not being a word you can end a sentence with.  Although in English it's a perfectly natural construction to make use of.






Hope

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #68 on: June 14, 2015, 10:41:51 AM »
At its heart, English is almost two seperate languages, old German and Norman French. Vocabularies exist from both sources side-by-side. The German roots provide us with a language which is grammatically simple, Norman French with a multiple-syllabic vocabulary with often seems pompous. There was, of course, a social divide between the two language systems with the lower orders using the German base.

More correctly, the old German was actually the combination of several Germanic languages, especially those of the Saxons and the Angles - hence 'Anglo-Saxon'.  As HH says, there was a social divide between those who spoke this language and the newer-comer, Norman French, which - in itself - is a Romance language based on Latin and Greek, as are all the languages of the Southern European nations.

However, it should also be remembered that long before the Angles and the Saxons arrived in Britain (early- to mid-5th century), there was already the Celtic language, varieties of which are now mostly spoken in Brittany, Cornwall, Galicia, Ireland, Isle of Man, Scotland and Wales, which vied with the incoming Latin and Greek of the Phoenician traders and Romans.

Even more historically, all these languages have a common ancestor - an early form of Sanskrit - which gave rise (according to some linguists) to the Proto Indo-European family of languages.

Since the arrival of the Normans, there have been tranches of additional vocabulary and even grammar as a result of borrowings from languages that the  British have traded with and/or colonised.  Modern English is an amalgamation of all of these factors and heritages, and we should not decry it's resulting complexity.

From a language learning p.o.v., it is possibly the 3rd hardest to learn as a non-native language, after Cantonese and Tamil (the language of Tamil Nadu in South India), though obviously, any such listing has to take one's own mother tongue into account.

Quote
As far as its spelling is concerned - there is no strong link between phonemes and graphemes. There have been attempts to re-order this. At one level, Noah Webster tried to do this with his dictionary - in contrast to Dr Johnson who tried to retain the eccentricities of spelling in his. George Bernard Shaw campaigned for the rationalisation of English spelling.
Every such attempt to rationalise the spelling of English has fallen foul of the very nature of the language - the variety of sources that its vocabulary has come from as mentioned above.

One of my favourite examples, which I've shared (here?) before, is that of a Nepalese nursing student questioning why a book on 'Pediatrics' was in the library's section on children's health.  It transpired that she had had a voluntary English teacher from Britain (VSO, iirc) at school and she had been taught that anything starting with 'ped-' referred to feet (pedestrian/pedal/pedicure/...).  The book she was querying had been produced in the USA, where the same thing doesn't apply.  Most of the books in the college library had come from Britain, so most child health books referred to 'Paediatrics'.

Quote
One of the promoters of a new orthography was Sir James Pitman, of the Pitman shorthand family. I don't do shorthand but I believe that it involves a fairly close association between phoneme and the shorthand graphemes.
I understand that the problem Pitman's system faced is that faced by any such system within English: you get a far larger number of homophones - words that sound the same, even if they don't mean the same - eg: sew (repair or make clothing)/sow (put seed into the ground)/so (an adverb or conjunction).  This actually makes it more difficult for learners.
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

Lists of what is needed and a search engine to find your nearest collector (scroll to bottom for latter) are here:  http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

trippymonkey

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #69 on: June 14, 2015, 06:35:23 PM »
Does anyone agree with the 'American' they took it OFF OF the table rather than just off???
Or should he put it back ONN ON ????

BashfulAnthony

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #70 on: June 14, 2015, 06:37:05 PM »
At its heart, English is almost two seperate languages, old German and Norman French. Vocabularies exist from both sources side-by-side. The German roots provide us with a language which is grammatically simple, Norman French with a multiple-syllabic vocabulary with often seems pompous. There was, of course, a social divide between the two language systems with the lower orders using the German base.

More correctly, the old German was actually the combination of several Germanic languages, especially those of the Saxons and the Angles - hence 'Anglo-Saxon'.  As HH says, there was a social divide between those who spoke this language and the newer-comer, Norman French, which - in itself - is a Romance language based on Latin and Greek, as are all the languages of the Southern European nations.

However, it should also be remembered that long before the Angles and the Saxons arrived in Britain (early- to mid-5th century), there was already the Celtic language, varieties of which are now mostly spoken in Brittany, Cornwall, Galicia, Ireland, Isle of Man, Scotland and Wales, which vied with the incoming Latin and Greek of the Phoenician traders and Romans.

Even more historically, all these languages have a common ancestor - an early form of Sanskrit - which gave rise (according to some linguists) to the Proto Indo-European family of languages.

Since the arrival of the Normans, there have been tranches of additional vocabulary and even grammar as a result of borrowings from languages that the  British have traded with and/or colonised.  Modern English is an amalgamation of all of these factors and heritages, and we should not decry it's resulting complexity.

From a language learning p.o.v., it is possibly the 3rd hardest to learn as a non-native language, after Cantonese and Tamil (the language of Tamil Nadu in South India), though obviously, any such listing has to take one's own mother tongue into account.

Quote
As far as its spelling is concerned - there is no strong link between phonemes and graphemes. There have been attempts to re-order this. At one level, Noah Webster tried to do this with his dictionary - in contrast to Dr Johnson who tried to retain the eccentricities of spelling in his. George Bernard Shaw campaigned for the rationalisation of English spelling.
Every such attempt to rationalise the spelling of English has fallen foul of the very nature of the language - the variety of sources that its vocabulary has come from as mentioned above.

One of my favourite examples, which I've shared (here?) before, is that of a Nepalese nursing student questioning why a book on 'Pediatrics' was in the library's section on children's health.  It transpired that she had had a voluntary English teacher from Britain (VSO, iirc) at school and she had been taught that anything starting with 'ped-' referred to feet (pedestrian/pedal/pedicure/...).  The book she was querying had been produced in the USA, where the same thing doesn't apply.  Most of the books in the college library had come from Britain, so most child health books referred to 'Paediatrics'.

Quote
One of the promoters of a new orthography was Sir James Pitman, of the Pitman shorthand family. I don't do shorthand but I believe that it involves a fairly close association between phoneme and the shorthand graphemes.
I understand that the problem Pitman's system faced is that faced by any such system within English: you get a far larger number of homophones - words that sound the same, even if they don't mean the same - eg: sew (repair or make clothing)/sow (put seed into the ground)/so (an adverb or conjunction).  This actually makes it more difficult for learners.

Good googling there, Hope.
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Hope

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #71 on: June 14, 2015, 06:48:28 PM »
Good googling there, Hope.
Sorry BA, but as an English teacher who is interested in the history of the language this is stuff I know as a matter of course.  I had to check up on the date that the Angle and Saxons invaded Britain but the rest is stuff that I have taught and studied many times.
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

Lists of what is needed and a search engine to find your nearest collector (scroll to bottom for latter) are here:  http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

Hope

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #72 on: June 14, 2015, 06:51:47 PM »
Does anyone agree with the 'American' they took it OFF OF the table rather than just off???
Or should he put it back ONN ON ????
This site gives a great discussion - https://motivatedgrammar.wordpress.com/2012/07/31/on-off-of/

As you say, it is un-grammatical in so many ways!!
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

Lists of what is needed and a search engine to find your nearest collector (scroll to bottom for latter) are here:  http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

Shaker

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #73 on: June 14, 2015, 06:56:04 PM »
Good googling there, Hope.
Sorry BA, but as an English teacher who is interested in the history of the language this is stuff I know as a matter of course.  I had to check up on the date that the Angle and Saxons invaded Britain but the rest is stuff that I have taught and studied many times.
Bashers I fear finds the concept of acquiring and retaining knowledge alien - he regularly accuses people who know stuff of simply Googling it.
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BashfulAnthony

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #74 on: June 14, 2015, 07:27:47 PM »
Good googling there, Hope.
Sorry BA, but as an English teacher who is interested in the history of the language this is stuff I know as a matter of course.  I had to check up on the date that the Angle and Saxons invaded Britain but the rest is stuff that I have taught and studied many times.
Bashers I fear finds the concept of acquiring and retaining knowledge alien - he regularly accuses people who know stuff of simply Googling it.

If you honestly believe all the stuff posters submit on here is their own knowledge, then we are in the midst of the world's greatest collection of experts.
BA.

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It is my commandment that you love one another."