Author Topic: English language ...a mess?!  (Read 18746 times)

Sriram

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #75 on: July 06, 2015, 08:46:20 AM »


And as if English words are not bad enough...we have all those French words and expressions that are thrust in every now and then...the usage of which for some odd reason are considered classy and more intellectual.  How the heck they are pronounced...is always a problem.

Harrowby Hall

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #76 on: July 06, 2015, 09:10:46 AM »


And as if English words are not bad enough...we have all those French words and expressions that are thrust in every now and then...the usage of which for some odd reason are considered classy and more intellectual.  How the heck they are pronounced...is always a problem.

French words - classy and more intellectual? Where do you get that from? It's not something that I'm aware of here in the UK.

In this country we are awash with words like bungalow and veranda, pyjamas and shampoo, chutney and dinghy and jungle and nirvana.

Where do these all come from, I wonder?
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Sassy

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #77 on: July 06, 2015, 09:18:00 AM »
Hi everyone,

Here is an interesting article about the english language and its many ....complexities.  :)

http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20150605-your-language-is-sinful

***********************************************************************
Dearest creature in creation
Studying English pronunciation,
I will teach you in my verse
Sounds like corpse, corps, horse and worse.

In its fullest version, the poem runs through about 800 of the most vexing spelling inconsistencies in English. Eight hundred.

Attempting to spell in English is like playing one of those computer games where, no matter what, you will lose eventually. If some evil mage has performed vile magic on our tongue, he should be bunged into gaol for his nefarious goal (and if you still need convincing of how inconsistent English pronunciation is, just read that last sentence out loud). But no, our spelling came to be a capricious mess for entirely human reasons.

So what happened with English? It’s a story of invasions, thefts, sloth, caprice, mistakes, pride and the inexorable juggernaut of change. In its broadest strokes, these problems come down to people – including you and me, dear readers – being greedy, lazy and snobbish.

***********************************************************************

Cheers.

Sriram
I would have thought the English language problems arose from the fact the uneducated who probably taught themselves as much as they could.... spelled words as they sound rather than as they were written.

But with all language it is the basic education behind it.
Photograph for instance and Philip when PH put together it gives an 'F' sound...
English language means you have to understand the words definitions being used.

Their coat is over there. The witch could not decide which broomstick she wanted to use...In the English mind we know which spelling is for witch but speaking English without learning to write it can be a nightmare.

The old English was different from the new English. As a new words such as photography, photograph and photosynthesis have entered the language then the education means not a simple language anymore. It is diverse and with new meanings as time goes by with new words.

The word 'Bastard' now a common term as a swear word was perfectly legitimate word with a legitimate meaning.
The difficulty is now it is used as a swear word it is difficult to use it in it's proper sense without it being offensive.

The English language isn't a mess. It is the people who are not educated in the heart of the definitions and the use of the words...

It is complex but not a mess...



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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #78 on: July 06, 2015, 09:18:59 AM »
Good googling there, Hope.
Sorry BA, but as an English teacher who is interested in the history of the language this is stuff I know as a matter of course.  I had to check up on the date that the Angle and Saxons invaded Britain but the rest is stuff that I have taught and studied many times.
Bashers I fear finds the concept of acquiring and retaining knowledge alien - he regularly accuses people who know stuff of simply Googling it.

Very sad indeed. :( I might have flunked maths and science, but my general knowledge is pretty good. I had prizes in that subject for nearly every year whilst at school!

Sriram

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #79 on: July 06, 2015, 10:18:50 AM »


And as if English words are not bad enough...we have all those French words and expressions that are thrust in every now and then...the usage of which for some odd reason are considered classy and more intellectual.  How the heck they are pronounced...is always a problem.

French words - classy and more intellectual? Where do you get that from? It's not something that I'm aware of here in the UK.

In this country we are awash with words like bungalow and veranda, pyjamas and shampoo, chutney and dinghy and jungle and nirvana.

Where do these all come from, I wonder?


Yes...there are many more words from Sanskrit....but most of them are pronounced in a fairly straight forward way.

About French words...take words such as...apéritif,  au contraire, au revoir, avant-garde, carte blanche, chef d'œuvre, concierge, haute couture, Cul-de-sac, faux pas, genre, hors d'œuvre......and many more.

You need some more examples?

ippy

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #80 on: July 06, 2015, 10:46:23 AM »
I have noticed that wherever there are multi lingual signs posted, a good 95% of the time the shortest with the least amount of letters is in English, just think how much printing ink or paint could be saved there just for starters.

Yes I say, without bias, the whole world should be taking up English as the first language.

ippy

All of those Os and As the Italians keep using on the end of their words, they need to go too.





 

BashfulAnthony

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #81 on: July 06, 2015, 12:10:21 PM »
Good googling there, Hope.
Sorry BA, but as an English teacher who is interested in the history of the language this is stuff I know as a matter of course.  I had to check up on the date that the Angle and Saxons invaded Britain but the rest is stuff that I have taught and studied many times.
Bashers I fear finds the concept of acquiring and retaining knowledge alien - he regularly accuses people who know stuff of simply Googling it.

Seems to worry you!  But then, if the cap fits...
BA.

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Samuel

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #82 on: July 06, 2015, 01:04:07 PM »
My boy's been 'mate' to us since he was a toddler. I'm not trying to be 'down' with the kids, it's just a term of endearment.

If I were trying to be cool I'd be calling him 'dude'. 'Mate' isn't remotely cool.

I think most people use terms of endearment for their kids - over the years my girls have been 'poppet', 'sweet pea', 'girlie' etc. 'Mate' has stuck for my boy.

indeed. I have made up countless names for my children including ningnong, bibblebum, bustiavan, bossitch, boyboy, nimbusnoo, oot ootings, bontious bontious and moan-a-tron. I use them all frequently.

utter nonsense and something of a tradition in my family. My brother used to call me migadoo and simba timba ongawa. I actually had to collect a letter addressed to that name from an old bedsit when he posted something there by mistake... I actually had to ring the bell and ask for a letter posted to Simba Timba Ongawa... quite embarasing.

anyway, that has nothing to do with the OP but I wonder if that kind of playful invention is possible in languages with a more rigid structure?


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Shaker

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #83 on: July 06, 2015, 01:14:07 PM »

Seems to worry you!  But then, if the cap fits...
No, it doesn't worry me in the slightest; it's just immensely irritating to see you wheel out the same knackered old tripe so often.
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Harrowby Hall

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #84 on: July 06, 2015, 01:39:43 PM »


And as if English words are not bad enough...we have all those French words and expressions that are thrust in every now and then...the usage of which for some odd reason are considered classy and more intellectual.  How the heck they are pronounced...is always a problem.





French words - classy and more intellectual? Where do you get that from? It's not something that I'm aware of here in the UK.

In this country we are awash with words like bungalow and veranda, pyjamas and shampoo, chutney and dinghy and jungle and nirvana.

Where do these all come from, I wonder?


Yes...there are many more words from Sanskrit....but most of them are pronounced in a fairly straight forward way.

About French words...take words such as...apéritif,  au contraire, au revoir, avant-garde, carte blanche, chef d'œuvre, concierge, haute couture, Cul-de-sac, faux pas, genre, hors d'œuvre......and many more.

You need some more examples?

I think, from an English point of view, the reasons are fairly simple. I can't answer it from an Indian point of view, though. In some cases the words which you have quoted originate from a business environment in which the French used to be perceived as being the leaders - food, hotels and hospitality, fashion. Some of your words have been absorbed into English. Some are more apparent in American usage than British, for example concierge. We have receptionists. To my ear, concierge sounds pretentious.

Another reason for their adoption into English comes from the fact that French was (and possibly still is) the most taught foreign language in British schools. French words and expressions were reasonably accessible to a significant part of the population.

Then there was the fact that until, perhaps, the outbreak of WW2 French was the de facto language of diplomacy. This accounts for many of the routine procedural French expressions used in English (carte blanche etc). My British passport - two years old and biometric - has French annotation on the personal details page.

The effects of WW1 should not be forgotten. Soldiers came back from the front using French expressions in a rather distorted way - Toodle-oo, san fairy ann etc.

Oh, and to a Frenchman, these French words are all pronounced in a straightforward way. But you should hear what they say anout Belgians, Canadians, Swiss ... and did you know that London is reputed to be the seventh largest French town?
« Last Edit: July 06, 2015, 01:46:04 PM by Harrowby Hall »
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BashfulAnthony

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #85 on: July 06, 2015, 07:25:57 PM »

Seems to worry you!  But then, if the cap fits...
No, it doesn't worry me in the slightest; it's just immensely irritating to see you wheel out the same knackered old tripe so often.

Well, if it's irritating you, then my work is done!   ;D
BA.

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It is my commandment that you love one another."

Shaker

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #86 on: July 06, 2015, 08:00:22 PM »
How childish.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

BashfulAnthony

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #87 on: July 06, 2015, 08:02:26 PM »
How childish.

Ah, the innocence of childhood  -  me all over, that!    ;)
BA.

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It is my commandment that you love one another."

Hope

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #88 on: July 07, 2015, 09:08:43 AM »
Another reason for their adoption into English comes from the fact that French was (and possibly still is) the most taught foreign language in British schools. French words and expressions were reasonably accessible to a significant part of the population.
It should also be remembered that French was the language of the aristrocracy, of law and of a whole host of other areas of civil life in England (also Scotland, I believe) until the Tudors and Stuarts.  They would simply have been transferred into the early English language because of existing usage.
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Anchorman

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Re: English language ...a mess?!
« Reply #89 on: July 07, 2015, 09:32:15 AM »
Another reason for their adoption into English comes from the fact that French was (and possibly still is) the most taught foreign language in British schools. French words and expressions were reasonably accessible to a significant part of the population.
It should also be remembered that French was the language of the aristrocracy, of law and of a whole host of other areas of civil life in England (also Scotland, I believe) until the Tudors and Stuarts.  They would simply have been transferred into the early English language because of existing usage.



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Much of classic Scots - which diverged from English round about the early fourteenth century - has elements of French - as well as Danish, Flemish and Gaelic, with a trace of Brythonic Welsh still evident.
With the advent of trade from India, certain wordfs like 'clarty', 'jildy', etc, became Scotticised in their present form, though not used as much nowadays.
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