Author Topic: Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead  (Read 62538 times)

jakswan

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Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead
« on: June 09, 2015, 01:04:49 PM »
Quote
For this to be a good argument (that God raised Jesus from the dead), the probability of it being true needs to be higher than the probability of it not being true, i.e. >50%. On occasions people here have said that there are infinite number of possible other explanations for what is recorded in the NT (the empty tomb, etc.). That may be the case, but it is irrelevant. If the probability of those individual other explanations total less than 50%, it means that the probability of God having raised Jesus from the dead is greater than 50%. The percentages I quoted as examples, i.e. 12.5%, 6.25%, 3.125% and so on were part of a sequence where, though infinitely long, only total 25%, thus showing that it is possible to have an infinite number of other possible explanations, yet still have a total of less than 50%.

Be interested to see Al show his workings.

We all know we'll see confirmation bias but it would be nice to see it openly exposed.


Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
- Voltaire

Nearly Sane

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Re: Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2015, 01:27:11 PM »
Supernatural claims are not subject to probability, it being based on naturalistic assumptions and methodology. The entirety of the post isn't even wrong.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2015, 01:29:45 PM »
And that's ignoring it is taking claims as facts so isn't sensible in doing even a naturalistic analysis.

torridon

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Re: Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2015, 01:40:00 PM »
The probability of a supernatural event occurring is always going to be zero; anything supernatural would be incalculable by definition

Nearly Sane

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Re: Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2015, 01:46:32 PM »
The probability of a supernatural event occurring is always going to be zero; anything supernatural would be incalculable by definition

Then it isn't zero. It is just a non answer.

Gordon

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Re: Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2015, 02:28:18 PM »
Alan's outline isn't really probability in any meaningful sense of the term since all he is saying is something like 'if there are more guesses in favour of God then God becomes more likely' which is, quite frankly, nuts for a variety of reasons.

1. Probability requires a method that encompasses data that can be demonstrated to represent the various scenarios that are being described and compared.

2. The application of statistical tests is also essential, where this includes an estimation of random chance accounting for the outcomes of the method used , and again this requires an appropriate methodology that also involves data that is suitable for statistical testing.

3. The NT is anecdotal so it is difficult to see that it contains any data that is suited to statistical analysis in terms of assigning calculated weightings, which I assume is what the percentage approach Alan uses would involve.   

Assuming that Alan isn't suggesting that looking at probability using a 'research methods' approach (which I confess was a major element of my education and career) then what is left seems to be something along the lines of 'what can reasonably be believed', which raises other problems if he is attempting to use probability in an argument in favour of the Christian God based on the NT narrative.

1. If all that is available are the anecdotal events as noted in the NT accounts, such as the 'empty tomb' that Alan often mentions, then it seems that Alan's approach to probability involves assuming that these events are actual historical facts.

2. Accepting these NT anecdotal claims as being factual would be an unjustified assumption unless there is a method being used that satisfactorily addresses the risks that these anecdotes might contain mistakes or lies: that they might is a risk that those claiming the NT accounts as factual would need to address, and to date there seems to be no method employed that has done so, and since assertion that the NT is 'inerrant' is clearly insufficient where levels of probability are being claimed. 

3. Using anecdotal accounts as evidence that a supernatural event occurred is evidence only that this is what the people concerned claimed: but it isn't evidence that their claim is correct without a method that can be shown to confirm supernatural events independently of human testimony that may contain mistakes or lies. As yet no such method has been proposed that addresses this weakness. 

The obvious conclusion is that attempts to claim God based on 'probability' arguments is nonsensical without an accompanying methodology, and since this would involve demonstrating a basis on which claimed supernatural events can be considered as being probability-apt then any claims that God is 'probable' is just so much white noise: as is often said, 'not even wrong'.   

           
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 02:31:59 PM by Gordon »

wigginhall

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Re: Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2015, 02:48:59 PM »
I think it shows that some Christians abuse terms such as probability.  They are treating supernatural stuff as if it were natural.  For example, how can you have a supernatural event - it doesn't make sense.

Why they do this, I'm not sure, I suppose accepting that religious claims are guesswork is a bit humiliating.  But more seriously, it suggests that there are no constraints - since all supernatural claims, e.g. that Mohammed flew on the magical Winged-Horse of fire, with the glittering wings of an eagle - are also not even wrong.
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

floo

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Re: Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2015, 02:58:57 PM »
The argument that because a lot of people believe in the Biblical deity it must exist, and everything attributed to it must be true, is often used by more extreme Christians to defend their faith. 

Nearly Sane

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Re: Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2015, 03:04:40 PM »
The argument that because a lot of people believe in the Biblical deity it must exist, and everything attributed to it must be true, is often used by more extreme Christians to defend their faith.
Since it isn't any part of the discussion here, what is the point of your post?

BeRational

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Re: Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2015, 03:11:39 PM »
It's also quite clearly associated with confirmation bias, as while Alien will happily accept these claims for Jesus rising from the dead, or performing miracles, he will not consider this reasonable for others such as Sai baba.

I see gullible people, everywhere!

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2015, 03:22:32 PM »


Sorry, no offence, but the quote is a nonsense.
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

BeRational

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Re: Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2015, 03:23:55 PM »


Sorry, no offence, but the quote is a nonsense.

I agree.

There is nothing that could be written in any book to justify the belief that a dead man came back to life.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Nearly Sane

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Re: Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2015, 03:28:40 PM »
There is, of course, another side to this which is that the attempted but not even wrong approach to rationalise the belief in miracles has a diminishing affect on the god offered by other believers in it seeks to reduce what are miracle claims to the status of naturalist probability. It makes the event a mere set of monkeys typing.

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2015, 03:30:45 PM »


Sorry, no offence, but the quote is a nonsense.

I agree.

There is nothing that could be written in any book to justify the belief that a dead man came back to life.

Good try, BR!
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

BeRational

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Re: Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2015, 03:34:30 PM »


Sorry, no offence, but the quote is a nonsense.

I agree.

There is nothing that could be written in any book to justify the belief that a dead man came back to life.

Good try, BR!

Well, it helps that the statement is true of course.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead
« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2015, 03:37:10 PM »


Sorry, no offence, but the quote is a nonsense.

I agree.

There is nothing that could be written in any book to justify the belief that a dead man came back to life.

Good try, BR!

Well, it helps that the statement is true of course.

Oh no  -  it can't be proved or disproved?  Let's not go there again!
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

BeRational

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Re: Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead
« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2015, 03:41:39 PM »


Sorry, no offence, but the quote is a nonsense.

I agree.

There is nothing that could be written in any book to justify the belief that a dead man came back to life.

Good try, BR!

Well, it helps that the statement is true of course.

Oh no  -  it can't be proved or disproved?  Let's not go there again!

You misunderstand.

Even if Jesus did actually rise from the dead, you would still be WRONG to believe that because it said so in a book.

I see gullible people, everywhere!

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead
« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2015, 03:42:21 PM »


Sorry, no offence, but the quote is a nonsense.

I agree.

There is nothing that could be written in any book to justify the belief that a dead man came back to life.

Good try, BR!

Well, it helps that the statement is true of course.

Oh no  -  it can't be proved or disproved?  Let's not go there again!

You misunderstand.

Even if Jesus did actually rise from the dead, you would still be WRONG to believe that because it said so in a book.

Right. Fair enough.
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Shaker

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Re: Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead
« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2015, 04:08:30 PM »
Well then; Alan's misuse of probability has been given a comprehensive filletting with some outstanding posts, so we needn't waste further time on it.

Anybody fancy a pint?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

floo

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Re: Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead
« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2015, 04:16:46 PM »
No thanks I dislike beer, and rarely partake of alcohol until after 8pm.

Shaker

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Re: Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead
« Reply #20 on: June 09, 2015, 04:18:04 PM »
The sun's always over the yardarm ... somewhere  ;D
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 04:27:17 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Gordon

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Re: Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead
« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2015, 04:36:43 PM »
Well then; Alan's misuse of probability has been given a comprehensive filletting with some outstanding posts, so we needn't waste further time on it.

Anybody fancy a pint?

Yep - a pint of 'Old Probability' for me please :)

Shaker

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Re: Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead
« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2015, 04:41:20 PM »
Behave  ;D
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

horsethorn

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Re: Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead
« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2015, 04:53:55 PM »
Well then; Alan's misuse of probability has been given a comprehensive filletting with some outstanding posts, so we needn't waste further time on it.

Anybody fancy a pint?

Yep - a pint of 'Old Probability' for me please :)

And a pint of Bitter for Al ;)

ht
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Alien

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Re: Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead
« Reply #24 on: June 09, 2015, 05:22:17 PM »
Quote
For this to be a good argument (that God raised Jesus from the dead), the probability of it being true needs to be higher than the probability of it not being true, i.e. >50%. On occasions people here have said that there are infinite number of possible other explanations for what is recorded in the NT (the empty tomb, etc.). That may be the case, but it is irrelevant. If the probability of those individual other explanations total less than 50%, it means that the probability of God having raised Jesus from the dead is greater than 50%. The percentages I quoted as examples, i.e. 12.5%, 6.25%, 3.125% and so on were part of a sequence where, though infinitely long, only total 25%, thus showing that it is possible to have an infinite number of other possible explanations, yet still have a total of less than 50%.

Be interested to see Al show his workings.

We all know we'll see confirmation bias but it would be nice to see it openly exposed.
I can see an example of confirmation bias. It is in the person who asks for information and decides beforehand that it won't be any good.
Apparently 99.9975% atheist because I believe in one out of 4000 believed in (an atheist on Facebook). Yes, check the maths as well.