Author Topic: Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead  (Read 62658 times)

Leonard James

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Re: Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead
« Reply #75 on: June 11, 2015, 11:54:21 AM »
It's obviously true. Look, it says so in this 'ere book.

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead
« Reply #76 on: June 11, 2015, 06:36:31 PM »

I'm one of the last few left, sweetie.   :D



In your dreams! You may not resort to swearing, but your vituperative and insulting jibes are as far from refined as expletives. Sweetie.  :-*

If you say so, sweetie.
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Alien

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Re: Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead
« Reply #77 on: June 26, 2015, 04:46:05 PM »
Then there is NO way of showing a percentage for possibility of God raising Christ from the dead...

Correct.

There are several ways to estimate the probability of a dead person coming alive again.  The simplest way is to pick a random selection of the people who have died and count how many of them came alive again.  If we take everybody who died in the 20th century (OK not a random sample, but it will do for illustrative purposes),  and count how many were resurrected,  we get a probability of 0/5.5 billonish.  Even accepting all of the reports of resurrection at face value, it's still probably millions to one against.

Of course, if God is involved, he could choose to resurrect just a handful of people in the whole of history in which case the sample size needs to be enormous  to get anything other than zero.  My methodology above would be equivalent to selecting 100 people who bought lottery tickets yesterday, checking if any of them win the jackpot on Saturday and, when they don't, concluding that it is impossible to win the lottery jackpot.

I could try calculating the probability another way, just as with the lottery we can figure out the probability of winning the jackpot through permutations and combinations.  I could look at the probability in quantum mechanical terms of the particles of the dead person spontaneously jumping into a state where they constitute a living person.  This is possible but astronomically unlikely.  There again, if God exists, he could nudge the particles into the correct configuration.
OK, rather later than planned, here is an attempt at working out a probability.

Quoting from p 271 of Reasonable Faith by William Lane Craig where he is pointing out some problems with stuff David Hume wrote:

Letting M = some miraculous event, E=the specific evidence for that event and B=our background knowledge apart from the specific evidence, the so-called "odds form" of Bayes' Theorem states:

Pr(M|E&B)            =   Pr(M|B)      x    Pr(E|M&B)
-----------               ------------       -------------
Pr(non-M|E&B)        Pr(not-M|B)       Pr(E|not-M&B)

On the left-hand side of the equation P(M|E&B) represents the probability of the miracle given the total evidence and Pr(not-M|E&B) represents the probability of the miracle's not occurring given the total evidence. The odds form of Bayes Theorem gives us the ratio of these two probabilities. If the ratio is 1/1 then M and not-M have the same probability; the odds of M's occurring are, as they say, fifty/fifty or 50 percent. If we represent this ratio as A/B, what Hume wants to show is that, in principle, A<B - for example, 2/3 or 4/9 or what have you. So given the odds, one could never rationally believe, no matter what the evidence that a miracle has taken place.

Now whether the miracle is more probable than not will be determined by the ratios on the right hand side of the equation. In the first ratio, the numerator Pr(M|B) represents the intrinsic probability of the miracle and the denominator Pr(not-M|B) represents the probability of the miracle's not occurring. We're asking here which is more probable, M or not-M, relative to our background knowledge along, abstracting from the specific evidence for M. In the second ratio the numerator Pr(E|M&B) represents the explanatory power of the miracle and the denominator Pr(E|not-M&B) represents the explanatory power of the miracle's not occurring. We're asking here which best explains the specific evidence we have, M or not-M.
Now notice that even if the ratio of the intrinsic probabilities weighs heavily against M, that improbability can be offset if the ratio representing the explanatory power of M or not-M weighs equally or greater in favour of M. For example, (1/100) x (100/1) = 100/100 = 1/1 or a 50% probability of M.


It would be hard to assign actual numbers to the above equation. I would suggest that the first ratio on the right hand side (let's call it RHS1)

  Pr(M|B)     
 ------------   
Pr(not-M|B) 

is either low or difficult to determine.

The second ratio on the right hand side (RHS2) is high, i.e. the dozen or so alleged appearances written recorded by apparently honest people and the empty tomb after Jesus had been killed on the cross is much more likely if he had been raised than if he had not.

The most important question here then boils down to whether RHS1 x RHS2 > 0.5. Is RHS1 sufficiently small to bring the overall calculation down to less than 0.5, RHS2 being large?
Quote
Unfortunately, we can't assume God exists for two reasons.  Firstly, the death and resurrection of Jesus is one of Alan's Flakey Five arguments for God.  If God id necessary to make the resurrection credible as well, we have a circular argument.  Secondly, it's impossible to calculate probability if somebody is loading the dice.  If you want to use probability at all, you have to assume God does not exist - or at least is not influencing the experiments.
If we assume God exists, then yes it would be circular. Let's not assume he exists and leave it as a "don't know". That makes RHS1 difficult to calculate though. I think we might find ourselves discussing this at length.
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Hope

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Re: Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead
« Reply #78 on: June 26, 2015, 05:21:23 PM »
Supernatural claims are not subject to probability, it being based on naturalistic assumptions and methodology. The entirety of the post isn't even wrong.
Don't tell jakswan, he can't stand the logical nature of such a comment.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead
« Reply #79 on: June 26, 2015, 05:27:03 PM »
Dearie me, what fresh pish is this?  Miracles only work  if they work out they have no probability.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 05:39:25 PM by Nearly Sane »

Hope

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Re: Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead
« Reply #80 on: June 26, 2015, 05:27:45 PM »
There are several ways to estimate the probability of a dead person coming alive again.
But there are very few ways to estimate the probability of anything to do with God, as you know full well, jeremy.

Quote
Unfortunately, we can't assume God exists for two reasons.  Firstly, the death and resurrection of Jesus is one of Alan's Flakey Five arguments for God. 
No, jeremy, the death and resurrection of Jesus isn't a flakey anything for the existence of God.
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Alien

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Re: Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead
« Reply #81 on: July 01, 2015, 01:45:12 PM »
Dearie me, what fresh pish is this?  Miracles only work  if they work out they have no probability.
Why do you claim that?
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead
« Reply #82 on: July 01, 2015, 02:03:06 PM »
Dearie me, what fresh pish is this?  Miracles only work  if they work out they have no probability.
Why do you claim that?

Because the claim is precisely that it is in natural terms an impossibility (having no probability).

ippy

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Re: Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead
« Reply #83 on: July 01, 2015, 02:52:53 PM »
 Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead

Low probability there's a god in the first place. It doesn't get any lower.

ippy

Hope

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Re: Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead
« Reply #84 on: July 01, 2015, 03:44:42 PM »
Dearie me, what fresh pish is this?  Miracles only work  if they work out they have no probability.
Didn't realise that miracles worked anything out, NS   ::)
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wigginhall

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Re: Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead
« Reply #85 on: July 01, 2015, 03:52:57 PM »
Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead

Low probability there's a god in the first place. It doesn't get any lower.

ippy

Well, if probability refers to natural outcomes, neither has any probability.  Or more accurately, we cannot apply such a term to such cases.   The trouble with supernatural outcomes is that they seem to be unlimited and unspecified, so cannot be calculated.   It's like asking what is north of green.
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Hope

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Re: Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead
« Reply #86 on: July 01, 2015, 04:01:29 PM »
Well, if probability refers to natural outcomes, neither has any probability.  Or more accurately, we cannot apply such a term to such cases.   The trouble with supernatural outcomes is that they seem to be unlimited and unspecified, so cannot be calculated.   It's like asking what is north of green.
wiggi, the problem with that post, as far as ippy is concerned, is that it is too logical and rational.   :P
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead
« Reply #87 on: July 01, 2015, 04:04:26 PM »
Well, if probability refers to natural outcomes, neither has any probability.  Or more accurately, we cannot apply such a term to such cases.   The trouble with supernatural outcomes is that they seem to be unlimited and unspecified, so cannot be calculated.   It's like asking what is north of green.
wiggi, the problem with that post, as far as ippy is concerned, is that it is too logical and rational.   :P

And presumably that applies to Alan as well.

wigginhall

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Re: Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead
« Reply #88 on: July 01, 2015, 04:51:18 PM »
Well, if probability refers to natural outcomes, neither has any probability.  Or more accurately, we cannot apply such a term to such cases.   The trouble with supernatural outcomes is that they seem to be unlimited and unspecified, so cannot be calculated.   It's like asking what is north of green.
wiggi, the problem with that post, as far as ippy is concerned, is that it is too logical and rational.   :P

Well, I wonder if there is anybody else who that might apply to?
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ippy

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Re: Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead
« Reply #89 on: July 01, 2015, 05:30:58 PM »
Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead

Low probability there's a god in the first place. It doesn't get any lower.

ippy

Well, if probability refers to natural outcomes, neither has any probability.  Or more accurately, we cannot apply such a term to such cases.   The trouble with supernatural outcomes is that they seem to be unlimited and unspecified, so cannot be calculated.   It's like asking what is north of green.

I like that skewed logic that's a good one it's about as logical as religious belief.

ippy


BashfulAnthony

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Re: Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead
« Reply #90 on: July 01, 2015, 07:23:12 PM »
Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead

Low probability there's a god in the first place. It doesn't get any lower.

ippy

There is an extremely low probability of human-like life existing elsewhere;  but it doesn't stop twerps here arguing the case.
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It is my commandment that you love one another."

jeremyp

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Re: Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead
« Reply #91 on: July 01, 2015, 08:09:08 PM »
There are several ways to estimate the probability of a dead person coming alive again.
But there are very few ways to estimate the probability of anything to do with God, as you know full well, jeremy.

If you bring God into the equation it becomes impossible to assign a probability to anything.  In Alan's quote from WLC, the logic is absolutely fine.  In purely natural terms, given what we know of quantum mechanics and entropy (this is B the background knowledge), Pr(M) is virtually zero.  If M is "Jesus was resurrected" then Pr(M|B) is a tiny tiny number.   This means that the probability of the evidence we have existing given the resurrection must vastly outweigh the probability of the evidence existing if there was no resurrection.   

And by the way calculating the probability of the evidence we have mustn't just take into account the evidence that exists, it must take into account the evidence that doesn't exist.  For example let's say the "miracle" is Boris Johnson made a speech in the House of Commons today.  So we look for evidence and we find a TV report purporting to show Boris Johnson making a speech today.  So we say P(E|M) is reasonably high and P(E| not M) is fairly low on the grounds we don't normally expect people to fabricate TV news reports.  But wait, we would also expect the speech to be recorded in Hansard.  If the speech is not there, that fact is part of E and it substantially lowers  P(E|M).

That's all well and good, but if God exists, what probability do we assign to M?  If it's the Christian god, it's 1.  If it's the Muslim god, it's 0.  The whole calculation goes out the window because a fundamental assumption where probability is concerned is that there isn't somebody behind the scenes rigging the odds.


Quote
Quote
Unfortunately, we can't assume God exists for two reasons.  Firstly, the death and resurrection of Jesus is one of Alan's Flakey Five arguments for God. 
No, jeremy, the death and resurrection of Jesus isn't a flakey anything for the existence of God.

You have been on this forum long enough to know what we mean by Alan's "flakey five".  Stop being a dick.
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jakswan

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Re: Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead
« Reply #92 on: July 01, 2015, 09:51:27 PM »
The second ratio on the right hand side (RHS2) is high, i.e. the dozen or so alleged appearances written recorded by apparently honest people and the empty tomb after Jesus had been killed on the cross is much more likely if he had been raised than if he had not.

Apparently honest people whose are unknown, there are levels of probability who wrote the gospels, that they were honest, that they were copied accurately, that they haven't been changed.

High, my arse.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead
« Reply #93 on: July 01, 2015, 10:01:23 PM »
The second ratio on the right hand side (RHS2) is high, i.e. the dozen or so alleged appearances written recorded by apparently honest people and the empty tomb after Jesus had been killed on the cross is much more likely if he had been raised than if he had not.

Apparently honest people whose are unknown, there are levels of probability who wrote the gospels, that they were honest, that they were copied accurately, that they haven't been changed.

High, my arse.

It's just Alan lying about claims and presenting them as facts as usual.

Alien

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Re: Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead
« Reply #94 on: July 02, 2015, 02:04:15 PM »
Dearie me, what fresh pish is this?  Miracles only work  if they work out they have no probability.
Why do you claim that?

Because the claim is precisely that it is in natural terms an impossibility (having no probability).
Er, no. A miracle is something without a purely natural cause, surely.
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Alien

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Re: Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead
« Reply #95 on: July 02, 2015, 02:04:32 PM »
Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead

Low probability there's a god in the first place. It doesn't get any lower.

ippy
That was well thought out.
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Alien

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Re: Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead
« Reply #96 on: July 02, 2015, 02:05:06 PM »
Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead

Low probability there's a god in the first place. It doesn't get any lower.

ippy

Well, if probability refers to natural outcomes, neither has any probability.  Or more accurately, we cannot apply such a term to such cases.   The trouble with supernatural outcomes is that they seem to be unlimited and unspecified, so cannot be calculated.
Why "unspecified"?
Quote
It's like asking what is north of green.
Why?
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Alien

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Re: Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead
« Reply #97 on: July 02, 2015, 02:05:43 PM »
Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead

Low probability there's a god in the first place. It doesn't get any lower.

ippy

Well, if probability refers to natural outcomes, neither has any probability.  Or more accurately, we cannot apply such a term to such cases.   The trouble with supernatural outcomes is that they seem to be unlimited and unspecified, so cannot be calculated.   It's like asking what is north of green.

I like that skewed logic that's a good one it's about as logical as religious belief.

ippy
Do you have a reply to that, wiggs?
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Andy

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Re: Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead
« Reply #98 on: July 02, 2015, 02:05:56 PM »
Dearie me, what fresh pish is this?  Miracles only work  if they work out they have no probability.
Why do you claim that?

Because the claim is precisely that it is in natural terms an impossibility (having no probability).
Er, no. A miracle is something without a purely natural cause, surely.

So everything is a miracle then, as you don't believe anything is a purely natural cause.

Alien

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Re: Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead
« Reply #99 on: July 02, 2015, 02:06:06 PM »
Low Probability that god raised someone from the dead

Low probability there's a god in the first place. It doesn't get any lower.

ippy

There is an extremely low probability of human-like life existing elsewhere;  but it doesn't stop twerps here arguing the case.
I'm a twerp then.
Apparently 99.9975% atheist because I believe in one out of 4000 believed in (an atheist on Facebook). Yes, check the maths as well.