Author Topic: Girls in labs  (Read 21358 times)

Humph Warden Bennett

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Re: Girls in labs
« Reply #75 on: June 12, 2015, 10:43:24 AM »
Just looking at the DM editorial on feminist bullies, and right next to it is their sidebar of shame, sample story, 'Braless X wears tape on cleavage to avoid spilling out of her very low-cut dress'.

So femininists are silly, eh?  Just get your tits out girls, never mind your pretty heads about working in a lab!

So you think that somebody whom is employed as a Diversity Officer who writes things such as "White Trash" and "Kill All White Men" in her official capacity is not silly?

Nearly Sane

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Re: Girls in labs
« Reply #76 on: June 12, 2015, 10:43:49 AM »
Re-reading it he says he is in favour of single sex labs. That is beyond awful.

But of course what he has actually told the world is that he's behaved like a randy old goat who couldn't keep his mind out of his trousers in the workplace. Obviously the people to blame for that are all the women he's worked with. It's like the belief in certain faiths that a female nun needs to shave her head lest the men around her get lustful thoughts.

Yes, it's a classic projection - he's the one with the problems here.

Some great tweets - that slut Marie Curie, showing her ankles, when all the men just wanted to do science.
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Rhiannon

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Re: Girls in labs
« Reply #77 on: June 12, 2015, 10:44:49 AM »
The irony is that it's probably Tim Hunt who has problems here.   It sounds as if he finds the presence of women difficult, for whatever reason, so wants to ban them.   And probably people who talk about silly feminists also have problems with women.   You can get treatment for it!

Yes, why blame women for the fact (in Hunt's case) he can't keep his mind on his work when they are around? Obviously the solution would be to ban himself from being a distracting presence?

Nearly Sane

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Re: Girls in labs
« Reply #78 on: June 12, 2015, 10:45:50 AM »
Just looking at the DM editorial on feminist bullies, and right next to it is their sidebar of shame, sample story, 'Braless X wears tape on cleavage to avoid spilling out of her very low-cut dress'.

So femininists are silly, eh?  Just get your tits out girls, never mind your pretty heads about working in a lab!

So you think that somebody whom is employed as a Diversity Officer who writes things such as "White Trash" and "Kill All White Men" in her official capacity is not silly?
Witless Fuckery Day continues

wigginhall

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Re: Girls in labs
« Reply #79 on: June 12, 2015, 10:46:06 AM »
Just looking at the DM editorial on feminist bullies, and right next to it is their sidebar of shame, sample story, 'Braless X wears tape on cleavage to avoid spilling out of her very low-cut dress'.

So femininists are silly, eh?  Just get your tits out girls, never mind your pretty heads about working in a lab!

So you think that somebody whom is employed as a Diversity Officer who writes things such as "White Trash" and "Kill All White Men" in her official capacity is not silly?

WTF has this to do with women working in a lab?
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

Rhiannon

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Re: Girls in labs
« Reply #80 on: June 12, 2015, 10:46:56 AM »
Just looking at the DM editorial on feminist bullies, and right next to it is their sidebar of shame, sample story, 'Braless X wears tape on cleavage to avoid spilling out of her very low-cut dress'.

So femininists are silly, eh?  Just get your tits out girls, never mind your pretty heads about working in a lab!

So you think that somebody whom is employed as a Diversity Officer who writes things such as "White Trash" and "Kill All White Men" in her official capacity is not silly?

No, she would be an arse, just like someone who thinks women shouldn't work in his presence lest he fancies them is an arse.

Do you think all feminists think like that?

wigginhall

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Re: Girls in labs
« Reply #81 on: June 12, 2015, 10:48:18 AM »
The irony is that it's probably Tim Hunt who has problems here.   It sounds as if he finds the presence of women difficult, for whatever reason, so wants to ban them.   And probably people who talk about silly feminists also have problems with women.   You can get treatment for it!

Yes, why blame women for the fact (in Hunt's case) he can't keep his mind on his work when they are around? Obviously the solution would be to ban himself from being a distracting presence?

Well, at first, I thought it was stupid for him to resign, but when I realized what he is actually advocating, I can see how UCL would ban him, or in the jargon, 'senior scientists in the college objected'.   I bet they did.  (My alma mater actually). 
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Girls in labs
« Reply #82 on: June 12, 2015, 10:48:45 AM »
THE undisguised glee with which University College London broadcast the resignation of Nobel laureate Sir Tim Hunt as an honorary professor was a callous insult to a great man of science.

No thanks or praise for his work, no regret, just a priggish piece of jargon - ‘this outcome is compatible with our commitment to gender equality’.

True, Sir Tim’s light-hearted remarks about the difficulties male scientists have working with women were poorly judged, but they were free of malice and from someone born into a generation before political correctness became a religion.

UCL was alma mater to three notorious terrorists, including underwear bomber Umar Abdulmutallab, who ran its Islamic society. How lamentable that these fanatics and their radical friends were nurtured and indulged, but an elderly scientist is hounded out for nothing more than a clumsy attempt at a joke.
The task is clear. People should be on the lookout for female sexism and make sure that commensurate penalties are enforced.

When decent, talented males are put off careers in STEM because of prejudice against their gender then I'll join you.

I was deliberately passed over for a full time job with a trade union in 1987 because the meeting that was supposed to rubber stamp my appointment demanded that a woman be given the job instead. I had been an elected lay official for eight years, the successful candidate had been a lay official for four months.
Sounds like you felt entitled - why was there a meeting merely to 'rubber stamp' you. Surely that meeting should be there to determine who gets the position. And a job should never be based automatically on time served. Perhaps the other candidate, although less experiences as a lay official had other experience that you lacked - perhaps she was more credible at interview etc etc.

But perhaps you should show some empathy - your level of frustration at seemingly being passed over because of gender despite (as you claim) being demonstrably the best candidate is the sort of thing women have been faced with for decades.

Turn your ire on discrimination, where ever it may be not on women because of one incident.

That reads like an argument for positive discrimination.
On the contrary.

If you actually bothered to read what I said I implied that the best person should get the job. Not a default based on time served, merely rubber stamped with an assumption that the job 'was yours'.

And that the recruitment process should be sophisticated to allow a range of relevant experience to be evidenced within the process, because making the process too mechanistic can install indirect bias. An obvious one being 'length' of experience, rather than quality of experience. Processes that place undue emphasis on length of experience (candidate must have 10 years experience as a junior widget maker) can bias in a number of ways, including of course against those that take career breaks or change careers. And actually are often very poor recruitment practice because a person with 11 years as a junior widget maker might not be as good as a junior widget maker compared to someone else with 2 years experience. And even if they were that doesn't mean they would necessarily be any good as a senior widget maker because that role requires different skills.

FTR this was a full time regional post, there was no interview, the regional officer was elected by the regional committee comprised of fifteen branches. Since this post would involve a relocation (unless the successful applicant lived in London), it was usual for the Chair & Secretary to make some enquiries beforehand as to whom was being nominated. The Chairman informed me that I had received nominations from the majority of branches, and the only other nominee was somebody unknown to most, who had been in the job only a short time. That is why I could reasonably expect the committee meeting to rubberstamp my application, I had not reckoned on delegates breaking their mandate following a last minuite interjection at what was supposed to be a formality.
Bit of a strange process, but none the less you have made it clear that the job of the committee was to elected by the committee with relevant candidates having received nominations from branches. There might have been a convention of rubber stamping on the basis of nominations, but that doesn't appear to be either required or sensible.

Presumably when the committee looked at the applicants and made their enquiries they became convinced that the other candidate was the better person for the job and used their authority as an electing committee to take that decision.

The presumption that you bring across - that because you had served a lot of time and was known to enough branches to get loads of nominations meant you should get the job worries me. A senior role is not a reward for long service, nor is it a popularity contest (unless directly elected), it is for the committee to decide the best person for the role taking account of a range of evidence and information.

Clearly you are sore about this, and this rankles even after nearly 30 years, but from what you have told us here I would have thought you'd been better reflecting on the reasons the committee chose not to select you, and your presumption that it was a foregone conclusion (which might have indeed been one of the reasons) rather than having a pop at others.

wigginhall

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Re: Girls in labs
« Reply #83 on: June 12, 2015, 10:54:06 AM »
Incidentally, I think UCL was one of the first universities to open up its door to women, and also has a famous rationalist/skeptical history, Bentham and Mill being involved.  So it would really cause wounds to have someone advocating single sex labs.   
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

Humph Warden Bennett

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Re: Girls in labs
« Reply #84 on: June 12, 2015, 10:59:49 AM »
Just looking at the DM editorial on feminist bullies, and right next to it is their sidebar of shame, sample story, 'Braless X wears tape on cleavage to avoid spilling out of her very low-cut dress'.

So femininists are silly, eh?  Just get your tits out girls, never mind your pretty heads about working in a lab!

So you think that somebody whom is employed as a Diversity Officer who writes things such as "White Trash" and "Kill All White Men" in her official capacity is not silly?

WTF has this to do with women working in a lab?

1) This thread is about "Silly Feminists".

2) In post #7 I gave a good example of somebody whom I consider to be a silly feminist. If that makes you so uncomfortable that you cannot answer it then so be it.

Rhiannon

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Re: Girls in labs
« Reply #85 on: June 12, 2015, 11:00:39 AM »
The irony is that it's probably Tim Hunt who has problems here.   It sounds as if he finds the presence of women difficult, for whatever reason, so wants to ban them.   And probably people who talk about silly feminists also have problems with women.   You can get treatment for it!

Yes, why blame women for the fact (in Hunt's case) he can't keep his mind on his work when they are around? Obviously the solution would be to ban himself from being a distracting presence?

Well, at first, I thought it was stupid for him to resign, but when I realized what he is actually advocating, I can see how UCL would ban him, or in the jargon, 'senior scientists in the college objected'.   I bet they did.  (My alma mater actually).

So you're a terrorist then? I've heard it's harder to get into than silly feminism.

Humph Warden Bennett

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Re: Girls in labs
« Reply #86 on: June 12, 2015, 11:01:47 AM »
Just looking at the DM editorial on feminist bullies, and right next to it is their sidebar of shame, sample story, 'Braless X wears tape on cleavage to avoid spilling out of her very low-cut dress'.

So femininists are silly, eh?  Just get your tits out girls, never mind your pretty heads about working in a lab!

So you think that somebody whom is employed as a Diversity Officer who writes things such as "White Trash" and "Kill All White Men" in her official capacity is not silly?
Witless Fuckery Day continues

So you think that posting such things is a good example to set? Boy you have got some issues.

Rhiannon

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Re: Girls in labs
« Reply #87 on: June 12, 2015, 11:03:30 AM »
Just looking at the DM editorial on feminist bullies, and right next to it is their sidebar of shame, sample story, 'Braless X wears tape on cleavage to avoid spilling out of her very low-cut dress'.

So femininists are silly, eh?  Just get your tits out girls, never mind your pretty heads about working in a lab!

So you think that somebody whom is employed as a Diversity Officer who writes things such as "White Trash" and "Kill All White Men" in her official capacity is not silly?

WTF has this to do with women working in a lab?

1) This thread is about "Silly Feminists".

2) In post #7 I gave a good example of somebody whom I consider to be a silly feminist. If that makes you so uncomfortable that you cannot answer it then so be it.

But there are plenty of people I consider to be silly Christians, silly atheists, silly Aresenal fans...does that mean they are all silly?

Nearly Sane

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Re: Girls in labs
« Reply #88 on: June 12, 2015, 11:03:42 AM »
The thread is not 'about silly feminists' at all, as anyone with even a waving relationship with English would understand.

And BTW when is this and the other thread on the same topic (Tim Hunt's Witless Fuckery trigger comments) going to get merged?

Rhiannon

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Re: Girls in labs
« Reply #89 on: June 12, 2015, 11:04:44 AM »
When there's a moderator around whose not on handheld probably.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Girls in labs
« Reply #90 on: June 12, 2015, 11:08:50 AM »
Just looking at the DM editorial on feminist bullies, and right next to it is their sidebar of shame, sample story, 'Braless X wears tape on cleavage to avoid spilling out of her very low-cut dress'.

So femininists are silly, eh?  Just get your tits out girls, never mind your pretty heads about working in a lab!

So you think that somebody whom is employed as a Diversity Officer who writes things such as "White Trash" and "Kill All White Men" in her official capacity is not silly?
Witless Fuckery Day continues

So you think that posting such things is a good example to set? Boy you have got some issues.

What are you on about? Have I said anything about setting an example? Who in the name of Screaming Jay Hawkins would I think I was setting an example to?

That you, ad_o. and Cim Hunt have issues with women needs to be called out.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Girls in labs
« Reply #91 on: June 12, 2015, 11:08:53 AM »
Incidentally, I think UCL was one of the first universities to open up its door to women, and also has a famous rationalist/skeptical history, Bentham and Mill being involved.  So it would really cause wounds to have someone advocating single sex labs.   
That's right UCL has always prided itself as being at the forefront of liberal progress, so I imagine that didn't help Tim. It isn't clear whether he jumped or was pushed. But worth remembering this was an honorary position, not a bone fide job.

I don't think Hunt really meant to cause offence, but I do think he lacks self awareness of the likely effect of his comments. He is also achingly old-school and exudes his upbringing - public school, Cambridge and then classic old school academic research career. He is rather charming and gently humorous in a very endearing manner, but really does seem rather stuck in the 1970s.

He is also totally passionate about science and I can rather understand (but not agree necessarily) how he has that old school view that science has to be you life, nothing can distract from it in any way. When you hear him discuss his early work at Woods Hole where he used sea urchin eggs that were only available at a certain time of year you can feel his frustration at not being able to conduct the key experiments at other times of the year. Given the chance I have no doubt he'd have been working morning to night, seven days a week every week of the years given the chance. And with that personal motivation you kind of understand how he might see anything that distracts from the key goal - the science - as a big problem.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2015, 11:15:41 AM by ProfessorDavey »

Gordon

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Re: Girls in labs
« Reply #92 on: June 12, 2015, 11:33:55 AM »
Moderator:

I'm just about to merge this thread with the Girls in Labs thread, after which this thread will disappear.

Locking this while I do the merge.

Update - threads merged.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2015, 11:49:12 AM by Gordon »

Rhiannon

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Re: Girls in labs
« Reply #93 on: June 12, 2015, 12:11:00 PM »
Incidentally, I think UCL was one of the first universities to open up its door to women, and also has a famous rationalist/skeptical history, Bentham and Mill being involved.  So it would really cause wounds to have someone advocating single sex labs.   
That's right UCL has always prided itself as being at the forefront of liberal progress, so I imagine that didn't help Tim. It isn't clear whether he jumped or was pushed. But worth remembering this was an honorary position, not a bone fide job.

I don't think Hunt really meant to cause offence, but I do think he lacks self awareness of the likely effect of his comments. He is also achingly old-school and exudes his upbringing - public school, Cambridge and then classic old school academic research career. He is rather charming and gently humorous in a very endearing manner, but really does seem rather stuck in the 1970s.

He is also totally passionate about science and I can rather understand (but not agree necessarily) how he has that old school view that science has to be you life, nothing can distract from it in any way. When you hear him discuss his early work at Woods Hole where he used sea urchin eggs that were only available at a certain time of year you can feel his frustration at not being able to conduct the key experiments at other times of the year. Given the chance I have no doubt he'd have been working morning to night, seven days a week every week of the years given the chance. And with that personal motivation you kind of understand how he might see anything that distracts from the key goal - the science - as a big problem.

I genuinely think it's very sad, PD. I think he seems quite likeable and clearly didn't mean to cause offence. But other eminent scientists have the same devotion to their vocations without struggling to work alongside people they are attracted to.

Perhaps this is a demonstration of why single sex schools aren't a great idea.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Girls in labs
« Reply #94 on: June 12, 2015, 02:01:13 PM »
I find his comments a reflection of his inability to deal with emotions or the general messiness of life.

If we look at life and death situations in the medical field, we don't have surgeons and doctors saying that they cannot work with a mixed sex team because of the risk that personal feelings will compromise the team's professionalism to a significant degree. People just take these issues in their stride.

IMO Tim Hunt seems to either have an over-inflated sense of the importance of science, or he made a stupid joke without thinking through the logical implications of his comments that people can't work together in science because they have strong emotions. Maybe he was trying to come across as a ladies man with a racy past or he was trying to portray himself as so devoted to science that he doesn't have time for emotions. Whatever he meant, it clearly got interpreted by some people to mean he wants to stand in the way of women in the field of science.

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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Girls in labs
« Reply #95 on: June 12, 2015, 02:15:10 PM »
So you think that somebody whom is employed as a Diversity Officer who writes things such as "White Trash" and "Kill All White Men" in her official capacity is not silly?
I think her comments and actions (if reported correctly) are totally unacceptable.

But you also have to get your facts right - she is a student union official - not an employee of the relevant university. This is likely an elected post with a single year tenure. I gather there are moves afoot to remove her, also by the student body. The university cannot sack her, because she isn't their employee - it is basically up to the student union to sort this out.

Worth noting of course that there is a long tradition of radical politics and expression of extreme views within the student unions of some universities.


Sassy

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Re: Girls in labs
« Reply #96 on: June 12, 2015, 05:16:33 PM »
I struggle to see how this is an apology

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02tc22c

Could have said removed the men from the labs...LOL

But to be fair having worked in the Labs, he is right about the people there, including the married having flings with each other. There were four women including myself working in our labs... Two of those women... (NOT MYSELF) were carrying on with three of the men in the labs. One of the men were married and one of the women married and carrying on with
two of the men.

Mind, the two carrying on with the one woman needed to be careful...she was a chemist. LOL

Well I have to say you have to watch what you say because it can be misconstrued.
Was a bit of a pain with the other two they used the ladies rest room alot. especially lunch hour... ;D
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Girls in labs
« Reply #97 on: June 12, 2015, 05:52:58 PM »
Did some of my sex wake up this morning and think 'mmm it's been a while since we have shown just how stupid and illogical we can be to women, let's really go for it!'?
Rubbish. Haven't you heard of the feminisation of society.
Future secular society will be matriarchal with chaps hanging out together in remote places hounded like dogs.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2015, 05:59:44 PM by Fay Wray »

wigginhall

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Re: Girls in labs
« Reply #98 on: June 12, 2015, 05:58:53 PM »
But just think, they'll be able to wank over pictures of methodological naturalism.
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Girls in labs
« Reply #99 on: June 12, 2015, 06:01:24 PM »
But just think, they'll be able to wank over pictures of methodological naturalism.
Eh?!???!!!!!?????????