Girls in labs

[Nearly Sane]

I struggle to see how this is an apology

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02tc22c

[Leonard James]

Some people are weird. What's up with a bit of love in the laboratory, or any other place of work?

[Gordon]

Yep - it is cringeworthy as an apology, and is just as patronising as was his original remark. Just goes to show that being a professional and lauded scientist isn't enough to stop him being a fuckwit in other respects. 

[Humph Warden Bennett]

It is very easy to slag PR people, but this is the kind of thing that they are employed to deal with!

[Gordon]

He has resigned.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33090022

[Harrowby Hall]

Sir Tim Hunt FRS, Nobel Laureate.

I have some (very slightly) mixed feelings about this affair.

About 90% of me thinks that he was a silly, misguided, stupid prat. He made his comments at a meeting in South Korea. He had no idea of the local culture, but went on to make the sort of comments that he might in the pub with colleagues after a symposium in his own university department. He has ensured that a glittering academic career will be remembered not for its achievements but for the way it has ended.

On the other hand, there is about 10% of me is looking anxiously at another victory for the stultifying embrace of political correctness.

[floo]

What an idiot!

[Rhiannon]

So long as 'falling in love' with his female colleagues and 'making them cry' is the result of nothing more than inappropriate romantic and sexual feelings resulting in over-emotion and not sexual harassment then I think he's guilty of nothing more than being a sentimental, fossilised old prat. I certainly don't think he should have had to fall on his sword over it, nor do I think a distinguished career should be ended or defined by it.

[Nearly Sane]

So the idea that 'girls in labs' are bad for science is fine?

[Humph Warden Bennett]

So the idea that 'girls in labs' are bad for science is fine?

Let's not get too upset about this. Remember Daley Thompson in 1984?

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/1984/aug/11/athensolympics2004.olympicgames

He would be in all kinds of kak if came out with these comments today, from completely different people.

[Leonard James]

So long as 'falling in love' with his female colleagues and 'making them cry' is the result of nothing more than inappropriate romantic and sexual feelings resulting in over-emotion and not sexual harassment then I think he's guilty of nothing more than being a sentimental, fossilised old prat. I certainly don't think he should have had to fall on his sword over it, nor do I think a distinguished career should be ended or defined by it.

My thoughts exactly!

[Nearly Sane]

The problem I have with the 'he made the remarks without thinking' approach is that the apology just isn't one. It is what he thinks. As to the end of his career, I would suggest that it was mainly in a scientific sense it already was. When it comes to his memory, let's be honest, none of us in here were big aficionados of his fame before this.

[Nearly Sane]

So the idea that 'girls in labs' are bad for science is fine?

Let's not get too upset about this. Remember Daley Thompson in 1984?

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/1984/aug/11/athensolympics2004.olympicgames

He would be in all kinds of kak if came out with these comments today, from completely different people.

Sorry, i am not sure of the relevance. There was a time when people argued that women shouldn't get into education and times change. That people thought that doesn't mean that it is acceptable for someone representing a university now.

[Rhiannon]

The problem I have with the 'he made the remarks without thinking' approach is that the apology just isn't one. It is what he thinks. As to the end of his career, I would suggest that it was mainly in a scientific sense it already was. When it comes to his memory, let's be honest, none of us in here were big aficionados of his fame before this.

he thought he was being funny. My eldest followed this on social media and there just seemed to be a bemused collective shrug, a 'whatever', and everyone went back to their mixed gender schools, colleges and workplaces.

[ProfessorDavey]

The problem I have with the 'he made the remarks without thinking' approach is that the apology just isn't one. It is what he thinks. As to the end of his career, I would suggest that it was mainly in a scientific sense it already was. When it comes to his memory, let's be honest, none of us in here were big aficionados of his fame before this.

he thought he was being funny. My eldest followed this on social media and there just seemed to be a bemused collective shrug, a 'whatever', and everyone went back to their mixed gender schools, colleges and workplaces.

The key issue is that science as a profession has a real gender problem, with tiny proportions of women at the top levels. There are loads of initiatives aimed at promoting science to women, including girls at school to try to improve the proportion of women studying science and entering the profession. Unfortunately this story undermines a lot of the good work, not just because of the comments, but also because Tim himself conforms to the classic stereotyping of scientists - white, male, brilliant but a bit barmy etc etc.

[Rhiannon]

Not among my daughter's peer group. Maybe with older students, I don't know.

[floo]

Our eldest studied science at uni, she was just as good as the guys. Likewise at school she was in the woodwork class and top of the class!

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

I would have thought the 72 year old Nobel Prize winner would be more useful to the university than the people objecting to his comments? I doubt his comments suddenly meant that any girls thinking about pursuing science suddenly changed their minds.

He made a comment on his personal experiences to explain why he supported single-sex labs to 100 people at a science conference in Korea. I think it's a shame for the university that he resigned - he probably decided he had better things to do than deal with the social media fall-out.

Looking at the comments themselves - it's true a lot of girls do cry when criticised. My experience is that I have not seen a man cry at work even though I have seen many men be given a really hard time - if I had been in their shoes I would have cried. I have seen girls cry at work. The only time I remember crying I did it in private, in the toilets. I also remember crying once at about 2am at home out of sheer frustration after spending hours trying to get a macro I was writing for a spreadsheet to work. I then stopped crying after a couple of minutes and figured it out. I have no idea why I cried - I don't choose to cry and would prefer if I didn't - I don't expect a particular reaction from others because of tears - they are more of a hindrance - I can't see properly 

Anyway, my daughter, who is really good at Chemistry, is in a single-sex school. I am all for keeping boys out of her lab and out of her school.

[Nearly Sane]

I have seen women cry at work and men. The frequency never seems to mean anything for the work. I have never worked in a segregated environment. I wouldn't support it and I would suspect given gender stereotypes, that a women only lab would find it comparatively harder to get funding.


I know he is an old fossil but using girls when he means women is a reinforcement of the stereotypes.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

So the idea that 'girls in labs' are bad for science is fine?

Let's not get too upset about this. Remember Daley Thompson in 1984?

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/1984/aug/11/athensolympics2004.olympicgames

He would be in all kinds of kak if came out with these comments today, from completely different people.

Sorry, i am not sure of the relevance. There was a time when people argued that women shouldn't get into education and times change. That people thought that doesn't mean that it is acceptable for someone representing a university now.

As I see it in 1984 Daley was generally considered to be "an ordinary working class bloke" who made risque comments. Today there would be all sorts of outrage, although probably not from Princess Anne. There are those today who consider Sir Tim to be "a quaint old fossil" who made some corny jokes, and don;t see what the fuss is about.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

I agree about the funding issue - the more networking you do the more likelihood of getting funding so restricting access to male colleagues would reduce your chances of meeting useful contacts. That doesn't apply in a school situation, where the benefits of male input probably don't outweigh the cost of rowdy boys. If the boys were all geeks I would welcome them.

Women at work often refer to themselves as girls.

Tim Hunt made himself sound very unintelligent and unscientific if he was serious. But he claims the comments were a joke. His comments were very stupid, given he was lecturing about why it is important to fund creative science at a World Conference of Science Journalists and would come under the category of irrelevant and TMI.

I think he could have still made himself useful to UCL in other ways, but losing his position as honorary professor in the life sciences faculty does not prevent him from continuing doing whatever he is good at - working with women is clearly something he is bad at if he keeps falling in love with them. I doubt his wife will be pleased to hear that.

[Nearly Sane]

The problem with the idea that it was a joke is the apology, where he states he meant it as fact.

The issue with 'girls' is that, yes, indeed many women can use it of themselves, and it can be ok for a man to do it in context but here it isn't that context and it reinforces a stereotype of infantilizing women.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

From the link to his apology, I am hearing him say he meant the part that he had had trouble working with women because of falling in love with them? He didn't say all scientists would have the same problem as him - maybe he is just exceptionally romantic (horny?) that he can't interact with women even in a professional environment without getting emotionally entangled.

His wife is a scientist, whom he supervised, and apparently she was married to someone else when they got together while he was doing the research that led to his Nobel prize, so I hope he was referring to her. He said in his apology that he was being honest about his personal experiences.

[Nearly Sane]

He says that he meant to be honest and doesn't appear to retract any of it. I agree that he makes it more about him, but he clearly implies that this is not a mere problem with him.

I wonder if any men he worked with fell in love with him?

[Udayana]

Ah yes ... what about gay scientists ... would he have had Turing booted out?