Girls in labs

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Depends on how you define love. I would not call it love if someone has feelings for someone they are not actually in a relationship with.

I also don't know that I would call it love if I like someone who I know will never be interested in me back because I am the 'wrong' gender. I thought he was talking about emotional entanglements that distract people from their lab work, not mild infatuation?

[ProfessorDavey]

Not among my daughter's peer group. Maybe with older students, I don't know.

There is a very well established issue with women in STEM subjects (science, technology, engineering and maths). This starts right from school options level with less women taking the subjects at A-level (particularly the physical sciences and maths) and continues throughout the profession from undergraduate through to the most senior levels - with each level going up the seniority scale being more male dominated than the previous ones.

And a lot is still about the perception of science and engineering as 'boys' subjects. There have been improvements in recent years but still a very, very long way to go and sadly all the publicity over Tim's comments won't help. And remember he isn't just some old school scientist, but a Nobel prize winner, a member of the Royal Society and also on the European Research Council's panel than is responsible for awarding some of the most prestigious major grants that support career development of exceptionally talented scientists.

[Nearly Sane]

The use of words seems to imply that it is falling in love with someone and not together so that while not precluding actual emotional entanglement does nit seem to make it necessary to the point.

[Leonard James]

Depends on how you define love. I would not call it love if someone has feelings for someone they are not actually in a relationship with.

I'm afraid love doesn't work to rules, and it doesn't need a relationship before it takes you over. In fact it has the power to break down a relationship and start a new one of its own.

[Udayana]

Hunt is married to a woman scientist - also at UCL. I think his emphasis was on single sex labs or education, rather than discouraging women from careers in science. All this shows in the end is that a person can be brilliant in one field but rubbish at everything else.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Ok - so if we forget about defining love. Having feelings for someone else and having emotional entanglements is distracting - so Tim Hunt was right about that.  He spoke about his own experience with women - which could include the emotional entanglement that led to him getting together with his wife, a scientist whom he supervised in a lab, who was married to someone else at the time.

In the interests of free speech I think he should be allowed to speak about his personal experiences in the lab on the radio. I think he should be allowed to make jokes about his love life at a conference without losing his job for it, as it's pretty obvious his forte is science not humour.

I think women who claim to be serious about creative science should be more focused on the science rather than the poor jokes made by scientists talking about their messy love lives. That some women are so distracted by the poor jokes, they are willing to succumb to group think and jump on the social media bandwagon and demand he loses his job makes me question their ability to be creative or think outside the box.

I don't agree, by the way, with Tim Hunt's thinking on the subject of separate labs at work because emotional entanglements are so distracting. But a lot of work places do have rules about dating colleagues so it clearly does cause some issues.

[Nearly Sane]

If your job were to have as part of it encouraging people to participate in science and you expressed yourself in such away repeatedly that your employer thought was failing to do that, surely there is a question about suitability?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Yes, it is a factor. I would have handled it differently though rather than asking him to resign.

I think it would have been more productive to have a conversation about it and give him some training e.g. explain that at conferences he needs to focus on the bigger picture of encouraging talent, regardless of gender, rather than focusing on his emotional incontinence.

But maybe UCL were looking for a reason to let him go and he wasn't actually much use to the life sciences department.

Or maybe they all got together and decided that pretending to fall on his sword by resigning from UCL was the least disruptive option to pacify the social media furore for him and the scientific community, because he didn't do much at UCL anyway. Who knows.

[Nearly Sane]

I agree with all of that, and other than thanks for the discussion have nothing to add.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Oh, anytime - thanks for the discussion too.

[ProfessorDavey]

Hunt is married to a woman scientist - also at UCL. I think his emphasis was on single sex labs or education, rather than discouraging women from careers in science.

I agree, and indeed others have suggested he is supportive of improving the number of women in science. But this is the law of unintended consequences. His comments have helped to cement a view of science and scientists which is not helpful in encouraging women to consider a career in science.

[Nearly Sane]

The #distractinglysexy is funny

[wigginhall]

Great sign, no crying or falling in love in this lab.

[jeremyp]

Our eldest studied science at uni, she was just as good as the guys. Likewise at school she was in the woodwork class and top of the class!

Is she still in a science based career?  If not, you might want to consider why not (and I'm assuming it's not because she wasn't any good at it).

[BashfulAnthony]

Our eldest studied science at uni, she was just as good as the guys. Likewise at school she was in the woodwork class and top of the class!

Is she still in a science based career?  If not, you might want to consider why not (and I'm assuming it's not because she wasn't any good at it).

You can't assume any such thing! You know nothing of her or her abilities; and you cannot base what you say on:
"she was just as good as the guys," which is just a mother's opinion, and she's not going to rubbish her own daughter.
I'm tired of the double standards atheists on here have.  Every comment from theists is challenged, and evidence demanded.  Yet atheists make casual comments like yours, without any way of substantiating them.  Hypocrites!

[Keith Maitland]

THE undisguised glee with which University College London broadcast the resignation of Nobel laureate Sir Tim Hunt as an honorary professor was a callous insult to a great man of science.

No thanks or praise for his work, no regret, just a priggish piece of jargon - ‘this outcome is compatible with our commitment to gender equality’.

True, Sir Tim’s light-hearted remarks about the difficulties male scientists have working with women were poorly judged, but they were free of malice and from someone born into a generation before political correctness became a religion.

UCL was alma mater to three notorious terrorists, including underwear bomber Umar Abdulmutallab, who ran its Islamic society. How lamentable that these fanatics and their radical friends were nurtured and indulged, but an elderly scientist is hounded out for nothing more than a clumsy attempt at a joke.

[Rhiannon]

I haven't heard anyone I regard as a feminist agree that he should have been sacked. In fact my daughter and I are both 'silly feminists' and we don't think he should have been sacked.

I agree with Gabriella who commented elsewhere that maybe his employers wanted a reason to get rid. Or maybe they are just right-on arseholes who like showing off sixth-form style. Whatever, I see little in the way of 'silly feminism' involved.

But how about science? Could Professor Hunt show his workings on women in the workplace objectively? If not then maybe his employers had a point after all.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/10/tim-hunt-science-prejudice-against-women

[Rhiannon]

http://leftfootforward.org/2015/06/daily-mails-femail-mag-warns-of-a-march-of-feminist-bullies/

Wanting equality, to be accepted as work colleagues first and women second, is bullying.

Women do an exceptionally good job of hating other women sometimes.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

THE undisguised glee with which University College London broadcast the resignation of Nobel laureate Sir Tim Hunt as an honorary professor was a callous insult to a great man of science.

No thanks or praise for his work, no regret, just a priggish piece of jargon - ‘this outcome is compatible with our commitment to gender equality’.

True, Sir Tim’s light-hearted remarks about the difficulties male scientists have working with women were poorly judged, but they were free of malice and from someone born into a generation before political correctness became a religion.

UCL was alma mater to three notorious terrorists, including underwear bomber Umar Abdulmutallab, who ran its Islamic society. How lamentable that these fanatics and their radical friends were nurtured and indulged, but an elderly scientist is hounded out for nothing more than a clumsy attempt at a joke.

The task is clear. People should be on the lookout for female sexism and make sure that commensurate penalties are enforced.

[Rhiannon]

https://mobile.twitter.com/search?src=typd&q=tim%20hunt

[Rhiannon]

THE undisguised glee with which University College London broadcast the resignation of Nobel laureate Sir Tim Hunt as an honorary professor was a callous insult to a great man of science.

No thanks or praise for his work, no regret, just a priggish piece of jargon - ‘this outcome is compatible with our commitment to gender equality’.

True, Sir Tim’s light-hearted remarks about the difficulties male scientists have working with women were poorly judged, but they were free of malice and from someone born into a generation before political correctness became a religion.

UCL was alma mater to three notorious terrorists, including underwear bomber Umar Abdulmutallab, who ran its Islamic society. How lamentable that these fanatics and their radical friends were nurtured and indulged, but an elderly scientist is hounded out for nothing more than a clumsy attempt at a joke.

The task is clear. People should be on the lookout for female sexism and make sure that commensurate penalties are enforced.

When decent, talented males are put off careers in STEM because of prejudice against their gender then I'll join you.

[Rhiannon]

Incidentally, I'm tired of anyone speaking up for gender equality or pointing out the prejudice women still have to deal with being labelled 'silly'. It speaks volumes about those who would still keep women in their place.

Ditto 'bullying feminists'.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

Here is an article about a silly feminist.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/11633305/University-union-officer-who-wrote-kill-all-white-men-tweet-will-remain-in-post.html

The issue here is not women only meetings in small rooms, which I suspect most of the girls would not want to attend let alone most of the boys, it is the damage done to the image of "Diversity" at large. If like Bahar you think that "Diversity" is about encouraging discrimination and stirring up conflict , then you will be pleased at the outcome. If like me you believe that "Diversity" is actually about encouraging mutual understanding & tolerance then your job has just been made very much harder.

[Nearly Sane]

Given there is already a thread on this, should it be merged? Preferably without the irrelevant stuff on terrorists.

[Nearly Sane]

Did some of my sex wake up this morning and think 'mmm it's been a while since we have shown just how stupid and illogical we can be to women, let's really go for it!'?