Girls in labs

[Humph Warden Bennett]

THE undisguised glee with which University College London broadcast the resignation of Nobel laureate Sir Tim Hunt as an honorary professor was a callous insult to a great man of science.

No thanks or praise for his work, no regret, just a priggish piece of jargon - ‘this outcome is compatible with our commitment to gender equality’.

True, Sir Tim’s light-hearted remarks about the difficulties male scientists have working with women were poorly judged, but they were free of malice and from someone born into a generation before political correctness became a religion.

UCL was alma mater to three notorious terrorists, including underwear bomber Umar Abdulmutallab, who ran its Islamic society. How lamentable that these fanatics and their radical friends were nurtured and indulged, but an elderly scientist is hounded out for nothing more than a clumsy attempt at a joke.

The task is clear. People should be on the lookout for female sexism and make sure that commensurate penalties are enforced.

When decent, talented males are put off careers in STEM because of prejudice against their gender then I'll join you.

I was deliberately passed over for a full time job with a trade union in 1987 because the meeting that was supposed to rubber stamp my appointment demanded that a woman be given the job instead. I had been an elected lay official for eight years, the successful candidate had been a lay official for four months.

[Nearly Sane]

Are you so stonkingly stupid that you don't perceive that women have been constantly discriminated against or are you just making a special effort for Witless Fuckery Day?

[Humph Warden Bennett]

Are you so stonkingly stupid that you don't perceive that women have been constantly discriminated against or are you just making a special effort for Witless Fuckery Day?

If you want to beat yourself up over your Y chromosome go ahead.

[floo]

Our eldest studied science at uni, she was just as good as the guys. Likewise at school she was in the woodwork class and top of the class!

Is she still in a science based career?  If not, you might want to consider why not (and I'm assuming it's not because she wasn't any good at it).

She was a teacher, but after eight years decided to become an Anglican Priest. However, she has kept up her teaching qualification. At her previous parish as Chair of Governors of the church school she would help out with science lessons on a regular basis. She does a lot of work with young people, church based and as a Guider. Simple science experiments etc seem to feature in the things she does with them.

[ProfessorDavey]

THE undisguised glee with which University College London broadcast the resignation of Nobel laureate Sir Tim Hunt as an honorary professor was a callous insult to a great man of science.

No thanks or praise for his work, no regret, just a priggish piece of jargon - ‘this outcome is compatible with our commitment to gender equality’.

True, Sir Tim’s light-hearted remarks about the difficulties male scientists have working with women were poorly judged, but they were free of malice and from someone born into a generation before political correctness became a religion.

UCL was alma mater to three notorious terrorists, including underwear bomber Umar Abdulmutallab, who ran its Islamic society. How lamentable that these fanatics and their radical friends were nurtured and indulged, but an elderly scientist is hounded out for nothing more than a clumsy attempt at a joke.

The task is clear. People should be on the lookout for female sexism and make sure that commensurate penalties are enforced.

When decent, talented males are put off careers in STEM because of prejudice against their gender then I'll join you.

I was deliberately passed over for a full time job with a trade union in 1987 because the meeting that was supposed to rubber stamp my appointment demanded that a woman be given the job instead. I had been an elected lay official for eight years, the successful candidate had been a lay official for four months.

Sounds like you felt entitled - why was there a meeting merely to 'rubber stamp' you. Surely that meeting should be there to determine who gets the position. And a job should never be based automatically on time served. Perhaps the other candidate, although less experiences as a lay official had other experience that you lacked - perhaps she was more credible at interview etc etc.

But perhaps you should show some empathy - your level of frustration at seemingly being passed over because of gender despite (as you claim) being demonstrably the best candidate is the sort of thing women have been faced with for decades.

Turn your ire on discrimination, where ever it may be not on women because of one incident.

[Nearly Sane]

Are you so stonkingly stupid that you don't perceive that women have been constantly discriminated against or are you just making a special effort for Witless Fuckery Day?

If you want to beat yourself up over your Y chromosome go ahead.

I have no problem being male, since I don't think it needs me to be a massive fucking dickhead and ignore the fact that women have been discriminated against. Obviously other choices are available with the Y Chromosome (and are being taken today by a number of our members)

[wigginhall]

This has to be one of the dumbest OPs ever on this forum, reproducing a DM editorial with a comment about silly feminists.  Maybe Keith should try thinking instead?

[ProfessorDavey]

THE undisguised glee with which University College London broadcast the resignation of Nobel laureate Sir Tim Hunt as an honorary professor was a callous insult to a great man of science.

No thanks or praise for his work, no regret, just a priggish piece of jargon - ‘this outcome is compatible with our commitment to gender equality’.

True, Sir Tim’s light-hearted remarks about the difficulties male scientists have working with women were poorly judged, but they were free of malice and from someone born into a generation before political correctness became a religion.

UCL was alma mater to three notorious terrorists, including underwear bomber Umar Abdulmutallab, who ran its Islamic society. How lamentable that these fanatics and their radical friends were nurtured and indulged, but an elderly scientist is hounded out for nothing more than a clumsy attempt at a joke.

Attitudes don't have to be malicious to be damaging.

In fact there is a move in a number of universities to move beyond the issues of conscious and overt bias - which has largely been eradicated through changes in attitudes, training and processes, towards addressing unconscious bias.

I bet there a many on this board who do not consider themselves sexist or racist (indeed would be horrified at the suggestion, yet have embedded unconscious bias which associated certain jobs, roles, characteristics with people of a particular gender or race.

There are some on-line tests for unconscious bias which I'll try to dig out. Try them and you may well be horrified.

[wigginhall]

Just looking at the DM editorial on feminist bullies, and right next to it is their sidebar of shame, sample story, 'Braless X wears tape on cleavage to avoid spilling out of her very low-cut dress'.

So femininists are silly, eh?  Just get your tits out girls, never mind your pretty heads about working in a lab!

[Humph Warden Bennett]

THE undisguised glee with which University College London broadcast the resignation of Nobel laureate Sir Tim Hunt as an honorary professor was a callous insult to a great man of science.

No thanks or praise for his work, no regret, just a priggish piece of jargon - ‘this outcome is compatible with our commitment to gender equality’.

True, Sir Tim’s light-hearted remarks about the difficulties male scientists have working with women were poorly judged, but they were free of malice and from someone born into a generation before political correctness became a religion.

UCL was alma mater to three notorious terrorists, including underwear bomber Umar Abdulmutallab, who ran its Islamic society. How lamentable that these fanatics and their radical friends were nurtured and indulged, but an elderly scientist is hounded out for nothing more than a clumsy attempt at a joke.

The task is clear. People should be on the lookout for female sexism and make sure that commensurate penalties are enforced.

When decent, talented males are put off careers in STEM because of prejudice against their gender then I'll join you.

I was deliberately passed over for a full time job with a trade union in 1987 because the meeting that was supposed to rubber stamp my appointment demanded that a woman be given the job instead. I had been an elected lay official for eight years, the successful candidate had been a lay official for four months.

Sounds like you felt entitled - why was there a meeting merely to 'rubber stamp' you. Surely that meeting should be there to determine who gets the position. And a job should never be based automatically on time served. Perhaps the other candidate, although less experiences as a lay official had other experience that you lacked - perhaps she was more credible at interview etc etc.

But perhaps you should show some empathy - your level of frustration at seemingly being passed over because of gender despite (as you claim) being demonstrably the best candidate is the sort of thing women have been faced with for decades.

Turn your ire on discrimination, where ever it may be not on women because of one incident.

That reads like an argument for positive discrimination.

[Nearly Sane]

To me, it reads like an argument to get your head out of your arse

[Nearly Sane]

Our eldest studied science at uni, she was just as good as the guys. Likewise at school she was in the woodwork class and top of the class!

Is she still in a science based career?  If not, you might want to consider why not (and I'm assuming it's not because she wasn't any good at it).

You can't assume any such thing! You know nothing of her or her abilities; and you cannot base what you say on:
"she was just as good as the guys," which is just a mother's opinion, and she's not going to rubbish her own daughter.
I'm tired of the double standards atheists on here have.  Every comment from theists is challenged, and evidence demanded.  Yet atheists make casual comments like yours, without any way of substantiating them.  Hypocrites!

And then Bash fell to the floor, frothing at the mouth

[ProfessorDavey]

THE undisguised glee with which University College London broadcast the resignation of Nobel laureate Sir Tim Hunt as an honorary professor was a callous insult to a great man of science.

No thanks or praise for his work, no regret, just a priggish piece of jargon - ‘this outcome is compatible with our commitment to gender equality’.

True, Sir Tim’s light-hearted remarks about the difficulties male scientists have working with women were poorly judged, but they were free of malice and from someone born into a generation before political correctness became a religion.

UCL was alma mater to three notorious terrorists, including underwear bomber Umar Abdulmutallab, who ran its Islamic society. How lamentable that these fanatics and their radical friends were nurtured and indulged, but an elderly scientist is hounded out for nothing more than a clumsy attempt at a joke.

The task is clear. People should be on the lookout for female sexism and make sure that commensurate penalties are enforced.

When decent, talented males are put off careers in STEM because of prejudice against their gender then I'll join you.

I was deliberately passed over for a full time job with a trade union in 1987 because the meeting that was supposed to rubber stamp my appointment demanded that a woman be given the job instead. I had been an elected lay official for eight years, the successful candidate had been a lay official for four months.

Sounds like you felt entitled - why was there a meeting merely to 'rubber stamp' you. Surely that meeting should be there to determine who gets the position. And a job should never be based automatically on time served. Perhaps the other candidate, although less experiences as a lay official had other experience that you lacked - perhaps she was more credible at interview etc etc.

But perhaps you should show some empathy - your level of frustration at seemingly being passed over because of gender despite (as you claim) being demonstrably the best candidate is the sort of thing women have been faced with for decades.

Turn your ire on discrimination, where ever it may be not on women because of one incident.

That reads like an argument for positive discrimination.

On the contrary.

If you actually bothered to read what I said I implied that the best person should get the job. Not a default based on time served, merely rubber stamped with an assumption that the job 'was yours'.

And that the recruitment process should be sophisticated to allow a range of relevant experience to be evidenced within the process, because making the process too mechanistic can install indirect bias. An obvious one being 'length' of experience, rather than quality of experience. Processes that place undue emphasis on length of experience (candidate must have 10 years experience as a junior widget maker) can bias in a number of ways, including of course against those that take career breaks or change careers. And actually are often very poor recruitment practice because a person with 11 years as a junior widget maker might not be as good as a junior widget maker compared to someone else with 2 years experience. And even if they were that doesn't mean they would necessarily be any good as a senior widget maker because that role requires different skills.

[wigginhall]

As well as his comments about crying and falling in love, some journos are reporting that Tim Hunt did call for single sex labs, or basically that women should be banned from many labs.  That strikes me as more serious than the other stuff, and it's possible that UCL really object to that, since it might put women off from working there.  That's not a jokey thing at all.

[Nearly Sane]

Other than the title the OP doesn't show that is a direct lift from the DM apart from the bolding - surely a link or quotes would be appropriate?

[ProfessorDavey]

Our eldest studied science at uni, she was just as good as the guys. Likewise at school she was in the woodwork class and top of the class!

Is she still in a science based career?  If not, you might want to consider why not (and I'm assuming it's not because she wasn't any good at it).

You can't assume any such thing! You know nothing of her or her abilities; and you cannot base what you say on:
"she was just as good as the guys," which is just a mother's opinion, and she's not going to rubbish her own daughter.
I'm tired of the double standards atheists on here have.  Every comment from theists is challenged, and evidence demanded.  Yet atheists make casual comments like yours, without any way of substantiating them.  Hypocrites!

Calm down dear, it's only an anecdote.

Single anecdotal evidence doesn't tell us anything really about the big picture, although it may align if we understand the big picture.

So Floo's daughter might have gone on to a glittering career in science, ended up as a Nobel prize winner etc, but that still wouldn't tell us whether or not there is a problem with women entering and then progressing in careers in the science profession. In order to know that you need to look at proper data, not just anecdote. So to determine the proportion of women studying science at a level, and then at university. And the proportion of women at the various levels of seniority in the scientific career path. And what this shows in that at each more senior level you tend to get a smaller and smaller proportion of women. The reasons are complex but the trend is clear.

And although Floo's anecdote isn't full evidence it does align rather well. A girl who did science at levels and was successful and committed enough to study science at university, but then chose to move out of a direct career as a professional scientist, but into teaching instead, and from their out of science altogether.

[Nearly Sane]

As well as his comments about crying and falling in love, some journos are reporting that Tim Hunt did call for single sex labs, or basically that women should be banned from many labs.  That strikes me as more serious than the other stuff, and it's possible that UCL really object to that, since it might put women off from working there.  That's not a jokey thing at all.

Essentially that was his position surely, and repeated when he made the 'apology' by saying that he meant what he said.

[wigginhall]

As well as his comments about crying and falling in love, some journos are reporting that Tim Hunt did call for single sex labs, or basically that women should be banned from many labs.  That strikes me as more serious than the other stuff, and it's possible that UCL really object to that, since it might put women off from working there.  That's not a jokey thing at all.

Essentially that was his position surely, and repeated when he made the 'apology' by saying that he meant what he said.

I hadn't really taken in that he was actually calling for single sex labs.   This seems different from jokey stuff about crying and falling in love, as it would mean that women would in effect be banned from many labs, where men are a majority, probably quite a lot of labs.   And I think most science profs are men, so presumably their labs would be entirely male?   Gordon Bennett, this is atrocious, and I can see why UCL pulled the plug.   They have a high reputation in some scientific areas, and they need this like a hole in the head.

[Rhiannon]

Yes, I know one scientist who went into teaching and another who went into childminding, although she's back in the lab now her kids are older. Which probably bears out the problems around childcare for women in any profession.

[wigginhall]

This guy is actually calling for women to be banned from many labs, if they have a majority of men.   What?  I didn't realize this, and I can see why UCL dropped him like a hot spud.   That is actually quite nasty, and not a joke.  (Sorry, repeated from the other thread, I don't know why we are having two on the same topic). 

[wigginhall]

The irony is that it's probably Tim Hunt who has problems here.   It sounds as if he finds the presence of women difficult, for whatever reason, so wants to ban them.   And probably people who talk about silly feminists also have problems with women.   You can get treatment for it!

[Rhiannon]

Re-reading it he says he is in favour of single sex labs. That is beyond awful.

But of course what he has actually told the world is that he's behaved like a randy old goat who couldn't keep his mind out of his trousers in the workplace. Obviously the people to blame for that are all the women he's worked with. It's like the belief in certain faiths that a female nun needs to shave her head lest the men around her get lustful thoughts.

[wigginhall]

Re-reading it he says he is in favour of single sex labs. That is beyond awful.

But of course what he has actually told the world is that he's behaved like a randy old goat who couldn't keep his mind out of his trousers in the workplace. Obviously the people to blame for that are all the women he's worked with. It's like the belief in certain faiths that a female nun needs to shave her head lest the men around her get lustful thoughts.

Yes, it's a classic projection - he's the one with the problems here.

Some great tweets - that slut Marie Curie, showing her ankles, when all the men just wanted to do science.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

THE undisguised glee with which University College London broadcast the resignation of Nobel laureate Sir Tim Hunt as an honorary professor was a callous insult to a great man of science.

No thanks or praise for his work, no regret, just a priggish piece of jargon - ‘this outcome is compatible with our commitment to gender equality’.

True, Sir Tim’s light-hearted remarks about the difficulties male scientists have working with women were poorly judged, but they were free of malice and from someone born into a generation before political correctness became a religion.

UCL was alma mater to three notorious terrorists, including underwear bomber Umar Abdulmutallab, who ran its Islamic society. How lamentable that these fanatics and their radical friends were nurtured and indulged, but an elderly scientist is hounded out for nothing more than a clumsy attempt at a joke.

The task is clear. People should be on the lookout for female sexism and make sure that commensurate penalties are enforced.

When decent, talented males are put off careers in STEM because of prejudice against their gender then I'll join you.

I was deliberately passed over for a full time job with a trade union in 1987 because the meeting that was supposed to rubber stamp my appointment demanded that a woman be given the job instead. I had been an elected lay official for eight years, the successful candidate had been a lay official for four months.

Sounds like you felt entitled - why was there a meeting merely to 'rubber stamp' you. Surely that meeting should be there to determine who gets the position. And a job should never be based automatically on time served. Perhaps the other candidate, although less experiences as a lay official had other experience that you lacked - perhaps she was more credible at interview etc etc.

But perhaps you should show some empathy - your level of frustration at seemingly being passed over because of gender despite (as you claim) being demonstrably the best candidate is the sort of thing women have been faced with for decades.

Turn your ire on discrimination, where ever it may be not on women because of one incident.

That reads like an argument for positive discrimination.

On the contrary.

If you actually bothered to read what I said I implied that the best person should get the job. Not a default based on time served, merely rubber stamped with an assumption that the job 'was yours'.

And that the recruitment process should be sophisticated to allow a range of relevant experience to be evidenced within the process, because making the process too mechanistic can install indirect bias. An obvious one being 'length' of experience, rather than quality of experience. Processes that place undue emphasis on length of experience (candidate must have 10 years experience as a junior widget maker) can bias in a number of ways, including of course against those that take career breaks or change careers. And actually are often very poor recruitment practice because a person with 11 years as a junior widget maker might not be as good as a junior widget maker compared to someone else with 2 years experience. And even if they were that doesn't mean they would necessarily be any good as a senior widget maker because that role requires different skills.

FTR this was a full time regional post, there was no interview, the regional officer was elected by the regional committee comprised of fifteen branches. Since this post would involve a relocation (unless the successful applicant lived in London), it was usual for the Chair & Secretary to make some enquiries beforehand as to whom was being nominated. The Chairman informed me that I had received nominations from the majority of branches, and the only other nominee was somebody unknown to most, who had been in the job only a short time. That is why I could reasonably expect the committee meeting to rubberstamp my application, I had not reckoned on delegates breaking their mandate following a last minuite interjection at what was supposed to be a formality.

[wigginhall]

Wow, you can see how much feminism is needed, with crap like this flying around, and 'silly feminists' threads on this forum, never mind the Daily Mail 'actress shows her boobs accidentally, and we just happened to photograph it' spiel.   Gordon Bennett, it's like being taken back to the 50s.