Author Topic: Girls in labs  (Read 21366 times)

Rhiannon

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Re: Girls in labs
« Reply #100 on: June 12, 2015, 06:04:44 PM »
Ronnie Barker foresaw all of this.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcMd1F1acSo

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Girls in labs
« Reply #101 on: June 12, 2015, 06:17:38 PM »
Did some of my sex wake up this morning and think 'mmm it's been a while since we have shown just how stupid and illogical we can be to women, let's really go for it!'?
Rubbish. Haven't you heard of the feminisation of society.
Future secular society will be matriarchal with chaps hanging out together in remote places hounded like dogs.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Girls in labs
« Reply #102 on: June 12, 2015, 06:24:01 PM »
As well as his comments about crying and falling in love, some journos are reporting that Tim Hunt did call for single sex labs, or basically that women should be banned from many labs.  That strikes me as more serious than the other stuff, and it's possible that UCL really object to that, since it might put women off from working there.  That's not a jokey thing at all.

Essentially that was his position surely, and repeated when he made the 'apology' by saying that he meant what he said.
Do you have evidence that the call for single sex labs was repeated? From your link what he said in his apology was:

"I did mean the part about having trouble with girls," he said.

"It is true that people - I have fallen in love with people in the lab and people in the lab have fallen in love with me and it's very disruptive to the science because it's terribly important that in a lab people are on a level playing field.

"I found that these emotional entanglements made life very difficult.

"I'm really, really sorry I caused any offence, that's awful. I certainly didn't mean that. I just meant to be honest, actually."

Looking really, really hard but can't see any repeat of his comment about single sex labs.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Girls in labs
« Reply #104 on: June 12, 2015, 06:37:32 PM »
Did some of my sex wake up this morning and think 'mmm it's been a while since we have shown just how stupid and illogical we can be to women, let's really go for it!'?
Rubbish. Haven't you heard of the feminisation of society.
Future secular society will be matriarchal with chaps hanging out together in remote places hounded like dogs.
Multi-faceted conspiracy persecution complex - takes some doing.

Oh and by the way ... no it won't be.
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jeremyp

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Re: Girls in labs
« Reply #105 on: June 12, 2015, 07:45:49 PM »

I was deliberately passed over for a full time job with a trade union in 1987 because the meeting that was supposed to rubber stamp my appointment demanded that a woman be given the job instead. I had been an elected lay official for eight years, the successful candidate had been a lay official for four months.

Remember how you felt about that at the time?  Now imagine that there's a pretty good chance of that happening every time you apply for a job.

Then quit whining.
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Samuel

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Re: Girls in labs
« Reply #106 on: June 15, 2015, 01:55:25 PM »
I'm ging to risk joining the NS' witless fucks here but hey ho...

I think this man's comments were stupid, thoughtless and irresponsible. But, I actually really resent the #distractinglysexy twitter response. That hashtag seems to me to relate more to the pervasive sexual objectification of women in soceity and not what Tim actually said.

he never said women are pretty and so are distracting. He talked about adult things like love. I've never worked in a lab but know from friends who have that it is an extremely intesne experience. Its a highly charged environment. That people get invovled with each other is no suprise. That getting invovled in that way would become a distration seems obviously true.

whilst I don't agree with his prmotion of single sex labs, and clearly his ill advised attempt at humour was damaging to the work to try and get more women into sceince, its not exactly fair either to imply he said things that he didn't.

Incidentally I heard a radio interview with one of his former women colleagues who was keen to defend him, reporting that she and many other women had had his suport throughout their careers. She went on to agree with his comments about women scientists being more emotionally vulnerable within the somewhat ruthless world of active research, arguing that it needed recognition to ensure a more effective approach to get women pursuing their careers with more vigor and getting into higher level positions.

Whether that is true I don't know, and clearly it isn't the only issue for women in science, but it seemed like a far more grown up response than posing as #distractinglysexy.

A lot of people don't believe that the loch ness monster exists. Now, I don't know anything about zooology, biology, geology, herpetology, evolutionary theory, evolutionary biology, marine biology, cryptozoology, palaeontology or archaeology... but I think... what if a dinosaur got into the lake?

Hope

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Re: Girls in labs
« Reply #107 on: June 15, 2015, 02:14:29 PM »
Have only just seen this thread, and have only read/listened to the first few posts and the original link.

If one is trying to be objective in all that you do, does the entry of subjectivity of any sort help one?

I'm not sure that the context of the symposium was the best/right place to say such things, but isn't there a place for discussing this kind of issue?  After all, I'm sure that we've all had similar situations in our own lives when we have felt attracted to a work colleague with all the complications and, sometimes, problems that that can create.
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Re: Girls in labs
« Reply #108 on: June 15, 2015, 02:25:09 PM »
No, Samuel, the witless fuckery is reserved for thoughtless posts. As noted when Gabriella suggested that it could have been handled with a diversity course and a clearer apology, I agree, but as she also noted perhaps there is more to this than we can see. As for the #distractinglysexy, it may not have been the best response but it was still funny and wasn't calling for any action. I find it odd that many people have already gone down the 'It was the humourless feminists wot done it' , if any that respond in a joking manner are then trivializing it.

At base the issue here for me is that despite some more 'emotional incontinence' from Tim Hunt and supporters in the press, given that it is a honorary position where the influence is about access to science and helping out on grant applications etc, he needs to be seen to be representing UCL in a non discriminatory way.every decision he would be involved with going forward would be open to being  second guessed and challenged.
His scientific career is not, despite his protestations, ruined.

Rhiannon

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Re: Girls in labs
« Reply #109 on: June 15, 2015, 02:42:16 PM »
From my pov, the #distractinglysexy response actually took some of the heat out of the situation, but the best thing about it was my girls both got to see real life pictures of women engaged in rewarding work in labs. My younger one keeps winning science prizes and I think it brilliant for her to see the range of work carried out by young women, and in a far less patronising way than well-meaning 'girls in science' initiatives might be.

Hope

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Re: Girls in labs
« Reply #110 on: June 15, 2015, 02:50:28 PM »
From my pov, the #distractinglysexy response actually took some of the heat out of the situation, but the best thing about it was my girls both got to see real life pictures of women engaged in rewarding work in labs. My younger one keeps winning science prizes and I think it brilliant for her to see the range of work carried out by young women, and in a far less patronising way than well-meaning 'girls in science' initiatives might be.
Sort of tangentially, I counted the number of men/women shown in a news item on medical research on BBC Breakfast this morning, and there were about twice as many women shown as men.  So, just get her watching the news!!
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Samuel

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Re: Girls in labs
« Reply #111 on: June 16, 2015, 12:45:21 PM »
From my pov, the #distractinglysexy response actually took some of the heat out of the situation, but the best thing about it was my girls both got to see real life pictures of women engaged in rewarding work in labs. My younger one keeps winning science prizes and I think it brilliant for her to see the range of work carried out by young women, and in a far less patronising way than well-meaning 'girls in science' initiatives might be.

I dunno, I take your point about the sickly, overly-worthy, 'girls in science' type campagins but surely  #distractinglysexy is only funny if there is a background assuption that women are only attractive when they are 'dressed up'? I think it kind of shoots itself in the foot by focusing, yet again, on female sexuality and away from scientific talent. The idea that female scientists are only attractive based on their looks is poisoness. A women who is bright, talented and hardworking is distractingly sexy, I'd say, whether she's wearing a lab coat, radiation suit or chest-high waders.

I would have laughed at a #toosadtoscience hastag (or something) with women showing how their crying was always getting in the way of their research. Still lampooning that morons silly comments but without the innuendo.

A lot of people don't believe that the loch ness monster exists. Now, I don't know anything about zooology, biology, geology, herpetology, evolutionary theory, evolutionary biology, marine biology, cryptozoology, palaeontology or archaeology... but I think... what if a dinosaur got into the lake?

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Girls in labs
« Reply #112 on: June 16, 2015, 01:15:05 PM »
From my pov, the #distractinglysexy response actually took some of the heat out of the situation, but the best thing about it was my girls both got to see real life pictures of women engaged in rewarding work in labs. My younger one keeps winning science prizes and I think it brilliant for her to see the range of work carried out by young women, and in a far less patronising way than well-meaning 'girls in science' initiatives might be.
Sort of tangentially, I counted the number of men/women shown in a news item on medical research on BBC Breakfast this morning, and there were about twice as many women shown as men.  So, just get her watching the news!!
There are some subjects, particularly those that are more biologically and medically oriented, where at undergraduate level and PhD level there will be more women than men.

But you still see the shift in proportions as seniority increases, so that Profs in those subjects still tend to be disproportionately male. So even if there are plenty of women at the earliest career stages  that doesn't mean there isn't an issue that needs to be addressed.

Rhiannon

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Re: Girls in labs
« Reply #113 on: June 16, 2015, 01:58:04 PM »
From my pov, the #distractinglysexy response actually took some of the heat out of the situation, but the best thing about it was my girls both got to see real life pictures of women engaged in rewarding work in labs. My younger one keeps winning science prizes and I think it brilliant for her to see the range of work carried out by young women, and in a far less patronising way than well-meaning 'girls in science' initiatives might be.

I dunno, I take your point about the sickly, overly-worthy, 'girls in science' type campagins but surely  #distractinglysexy is only funny if there is a background assuption that women are only attractive when they are 'dressed up'? I think it kind of shoots itself in the foot by focusing, yet again, on female sexuality and away from scientific talent. The idea that female scientists are only attractive based on their looks is poisoness. A women who is bright, talented and hardworking is distractingly sexy, I'd say, whether she's wearing a lab coat, radiation suit or chest-high waders.

I would have laughed at a #toosadtoscience hastag (or something) with women showing how their crying was always getting in the way of their research. Still lampooning that morons silly comments but without the innuendo.

Yes, well as someone who likes a cute mind more than anything else, I take your point. But the impression was given that labs are hotbeds of sex and emotional incontinence and the #distractinglysexy trend was a way of dispelling that in a visual way - which is what social media needs largely. I don't agree that it only works if we assume sexy= Mad Men because the campaign itself was attractive - funny, clever young women and men making it clear that they are on an equal footing whilst incidentally giving a glimpse into the range of work carried out in labs. I'd be more inclined to consider science for a career if I were in my teens having seen it.

floo

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Re: Girls in labs
« Reply #114 on: June 16, 2015, 02:46:32 PM »
Rhi, what is a 'cute mind'?

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Girls in labs
« Reply #115 on: June 16, 2015, 02:59:26 PM »
Focusing on Tim Hunt's actual comments - what he said was he fell in love with women in the lab and they fell in love with him, which interfered with work. There is emotional incontinence on both sides - if falling in love (which was what he was talking about, not casual sex) can be described as emotional incontinence.

The #distractinglysexy was funny but I never took it as being a response to Tim Hunt's actual comments. But it should be no surprise to Tim Hunt or anyone else that people interpret words the way they want and it takes on a life of its own. If I was Tim Hunt I would focus on my work, have a laugh at myself and let this blow over.

My experience is women tend to adopt a better work-life balance than men do. IME more men put their main energy into work (often at the expense of their health and personal relationships), they work longer hours, go the extra mile, take more business risks, travel without worrying about their safety to get the job done so it is not really surprising they reach higher levels in their careers.   

It's funny - today one of our male members of staff in Sri Lanka, a new recruit, wanted to not work at a client's because he saw the father of his ex-girl friend visiting the client's office. He managed to avoid being spotted but he was scared that the girl's father was going to blow his top if he saw him. We told him that he had been hired to work at the client's office and we would support him if he got yelled at, which means the police would be called if the situation became threatening in any way, but basically he was told pull yourself together and man up. I can't help thinking we would have been forced to adopt a different response if our employee had been a girl who was scared of being yelled at. Maybe a female employee would have "manned up" and continued to go to the client's office or maybe she would have folded and chosen the safe route of working in our office rather than go to clients and that would have had implications for her career progression. That's the reality.

I think we should be realistic about what Tim Hunt was actually trying to say and discuss the implications of his actual comments to figure out how to help women who want to go further in their careers. The only criteria I would use is the employee's output. If they are around in the office to bounce ideas off about strategy, if they will log in at home and deal with work to close the deal  or bring in the extra business or achieve the goal, then they should get the promotion.


« Last Edit: June 16, 2015, 03:01:14 PM by Gabriella »
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Rhiannon

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Re: Girls in labs
« Reply #116 on: June 16, 2015, 04:25:01 PM »
Rhi, what is a 'cute mind'?

That's like asking 'what's a sexy bum?'

Harrowby Hall

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Re: Girls in labs
« Reply #117 on: June 16, 2015, 05:27:56 PM »


 
...

It's funny - today one of our male members of staff in Sri Lanka, a new recruit, wanted to not work at a client's because he saw the father of his ex-girl friend visiting the client's office. He managed to avoid being spotted but he was scared that the girl's father was going to blow his top if he saw him. We told him that he had been hired to work at the client's office and we would support him if he got yelled at, which means the police would be called if the situation became threatening in any way, but basically he was told pull yourself together and man up. I can't help thinking we would have been forced to adopt a different response if our employee had been a girl who was scared of being yelled at. Maybe a female employee would have "manned up" and continued to go to the client's office or maybe she would have folded and chosen the safe route of working in our office rather than go to clients and that would have had implications for her career progression. That's the reality.
...

So, in your employment practices, you discriminate on the grounds of sex?


(At least, in Sri Lanka.)
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BashfulAnthony

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Re: Girls in labs
« Reply #118 on: June 16, 2015, 05:29:00 PM »
Rhi, what is a 'cute mind'?

That's like asking 'what's a sexy bum?'

Are you asking?
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floo

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Re: Girls in labs
« Reply #119 on: June 16, 2015, 05:33:17 PM »
Rhi, what is a 'cute mind'?

That's like asking 'what's a sexy bum?'

Sorry I really don't understand what you mean?

Rhiannon

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Re: Girls in labs
« Reply #120 on: June 16, 2015, 05:45:32 PM »
Rhi, what is a 'cute mind'?

That's like asking 'what's a sexy bum?'

Sorry I really don't understand what you mean?

A 'cute mind' is entirely subjective - intelligence, outlook, ideas, conversation - I'd much rather a cute mind than a cute bum, but it's not easy to explain.

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Girls in labs
« Reply #121 on: June 16, 2015, 06:04:09 PM »
Rhi, what is a 'cute mind'?

That's like asking 'what's a sexy bum?'

Sorry I really don't understand what you mean?

A 'cute mind' is entirely subjective - intelligence, outlook, ideas, conversation - I'd much rather a cute mind than a cute bum, but it's not easy to explain.

I'll go along with the cute mind bit;  and I'm not prepared to describe what a cute bum is to me!   :-[
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Girls in labs
« Reply #122 on: June 16, 2015, 07:22:35 PM »


 
...

It's funny - today one of our male members of staff in Sri Lanka, a new recruit, wanted to not work at a client's because he saw the father of his ex-girl friend visiting the client's office. He managed to avoid being spotted but he was scared that the girl's father was going to blow his top if he saw him. We told him that he had been hired to work at the client's office and we would support him if he got yelled at, which means the police would be called if the situation became threatening in any way, but basically he was told pull yourself together and man up. I can't help thinking we would have been forced to adopt a different response if our employee had been a girl who was scared of being yelled at. Maybe a female employee would have "manned up" and continued to go to the client's office or maybe she would have folded and chosen the safe route of working in our office rather than go to clients and that would have had implications for her career progression. That's the reality.
...

So, in your employment practices, you discriminate on the grounds of sex?


(At least, in Sri Lanka.)
Not sure - possibly. If someone becomes an emotional mess, obviously just repeatedly telling them to just get on with it and do the job they were hired to do doesn't really work. Not sure if a lot of women in the work place have been conditioned possibly by culture to respond in a different way from men to being told to suck it up and get on with it. Clients tend to just want the job done as quickly, efficiently and accurately as possible in order to reduce their costs, manage their cash flow, and to meet their regulatory responsibilities so they don't get penalised by the Revenue or their creditors or investors.

I haven't actually come across the men who become an emotional mess, but they do have other issues. Nearly Sane said he had seen men cry at work - I never have. But it's definitely good to have a mix of men and women from various backgrounds on a board of directors as they usually bring different perspectives, which inhibits group think.  My husband runs every investment decision by me, because I am more risk-averse in investment decisions and so I research the issue more whereas he relies on what he thinks he knows or what his business associates tell him about the investment.
 
Not sure how to help more women get to the top if they actually have a healthier approach to work and clock off and go home at a reasonable time. We will pay someone (male or female) more if they are willing to work at client premises when required - the extra client fees it brings into the business will be reflected in that employee's salary and they will be a more valuable employee with better career prospects. The reality is the more you can do for a business, the greater the responsibilities you will be given, the more valuable you will be as an employee, and the more you will get paid. Not sure if a woman who wants to go home to her family and actually have a life can still do as much for a business as a man who is focused more on his career than his family. If she can work smarter than the man then yes, she can get more done in the shorter time she is in the office. But deals are often made outside of the office, at social events in the evening so going home to your family in the evening isn't going to help.

IME  there are definitely increasing numbers of women who realise that being available to work and socialise when needed is a favourable impression to create if they want to get ahead at work. 

Once you get to a certain level though, you also need to be capable of making good strategic decisions for the business and in our case, you need to be capable of meeting clients by yourself in Sri Lanka and closing deals in order to progress further.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2015, 07:25:13 PM by Gabriella »
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Girls in labs
« Reply #123 on: June 26, 2015, 10:43:26 AM »
It turns out that UCL apparently were right-on arseholes and the journalist who originally tweeted about the incident in Korea did not report the whole story.

Apparently Tim Hunt's comments were made during a toast, not during the actual conference, and he immediately followed his light-hearted comments by saying "now seriously" and then going on to praise women in science.

Quote
A European Commission official who was at the lunch for women journalists and scientists offered a differing transcript from the account compiled by three reporters present.

The official included previously unreported comments that came directly after Sir Tim’s controversial remarks, the Times reported.

He allegedly continued: “Now seriously, I’m impressed by the economic development of Korea.

“And women scientists played, without doubt an important role in it. Science needs women and you should do science despite all the obstacles, and despite monsters like me.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/sir-tim-hunts-claims-that-remarks-on-girls-in-science-not-sexist-backed-by-leaked-eu-report-10341309.html

He says in the Guardian that during his career he has held many positions at labs and supported women scientists e.g. he fought for 7 years to have creche facilities available at a facility he worked in in Japan, and was successful, but was unsuccessful in his attempts to get a creche facility at the new Crick Institute in London, though he is continuing to push for it.

Apparently lots of young women scientists emailed their support for him and thanked him for helping them.   

"Top female scientists who have expressed support include physicist Dame Athene Donald, biologist Professor Ottoline Leyser and physiologist Dame Nancy Rothwell. All decried his jocular remarks, but described in warm terms his past support for young scientists of both sexes."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/20/sir-tim-hunt-gratitude-female-scientists-support-joke
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Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

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Nearly Sane

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Re: Girls in labs
« Reply #124 on: June 26, 2015, 10:54:36 AM »
Which still leaves the question of his 'apology', could he possibly have meant that he was serious about his remarks about women being needed in science?